I have a big problem with Fiance's friend. He and his wife pack a bag when there is a party and stay overnight. He then usually gets really drunk and stays up all night. A few of the partygoers will join him - the rest go home at a reasonable hour. His wife likes the arrangement because she can go to bed when she is tired and not have to deal with him when he is drunk. Often the next day he hangs around the house on the sofa watching tv in control of the remote.

This was all supposed to end when we bought our house together. Fiance was sure that people would understand that things had changed. He sent his friend an email saying that the next day would start early and we should not have the "sleepover". The friend says he never got the email. NYE friend is calling because Fiance used to "give him a job" and ask him to bartend. Friend wants to know if he is bartending so he can come in the right mood. Friend used to put up a rope at Fiance's other house to keep people out of his way when he tended bar. I said to fiance that friend must be coming with his rope and tell fiance to let the friend know that while he is welcome to mix a drink really anyone could hop behind the bar.

Friend comes over (we were busy and didn't see) prepared to stay over. Friend hops behind the bar and proceeds to keep others from going there to pour anything. Friend is still downstairs when Fiance comes to bed and tries to restart all the entertainment equipment after fiance turns it all off at 3am.

This guy is a problem. He is the kind of jerk that would overreact and fiance is afraid to just tell him to quit acting like our house is his because he doesn't want to lose a 20year friendship.

The friend comes over my house and goes out into the land in the back and starts pointing out where "he" is going to place landscape features????

I think there is a lot of boundary crossing here and fiance just refuses to see it.

I'm tired of arguing over this with fiance.

I've got several ideas.

1. Stop inviting this friend to big parties. Instead, have him and his wife over for a quiet dinner. Point out that cocktail parties are mob scenes where you never get to talk.

2. Hire someone to "tend bar" at your next party.

3. Tear apart the guest bedroom before the next party, or start repainting so that there is no where for him to sleep.

4. When he starts pointing out where he's going to do landscaping, tell him that's not part of the plan, but if he feels like digging, you'll get him the complete layout the landscaper drew up, and you'll spot him some iced tea even.

You may come across as a b*tch, but so what?

I think your fiance does not see it the same way as you do. The problem is with you and fiance, not with the friend and fiance.

You often post here about fiance is just too nice to people, too friendly, too helpful, etc etc, and doesn't listen to your advice. I get the feeling that you try to "fix" him a bit, and then get frustrated when he does not comply.

AGG

GG: Good suggestions. I was actually puzzled by the wife staying up so late when I saw they were staying over until the next day I realized that we were using the guest bed for coats and jackets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

AGG: Your reply provoked some thought. Have you ever watched the dog whisperer? Fiance's dog is bad - a barker. It happens whenever Fiance is hugging me, talking to me or talking to guests. The dog will run into the center of the room and just start barking and barking. It's awful. When I exert a dominant stance over the dog he will back off and stop barking or yawn and go lay down. Fiance thinks this suppressing the dog's natural exuberance and defends and argues in favor of the dog. I finally got tired of arguing about the dog and now the dog is again running the house.

I'm trying to fix fiance you are right.

Something I can't do - again you're right.

What do I do then? I have every right to expect to be in charge of planning my own landscape. I have the right to invite or not invite people into my home. So does fiance.

He wants to have some friends over tonight for a beer. I made a faux pas one time and teased the two guys about being like a married couple - you never see one without the other. A true observation but one they didn't enjoy. They told fiance they were upset that I had said that. The one guy's wife turns her back to me - excluding me from conversation when she's over. I told fiance that he should invite them over when I have the children home and that would give me an excuse not to join them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I say the rude party guy is not invited back over. Or no more parties. I forgot to say how rude he was to me at 3am when he was drunk. Or that he was rude to other guest not letting them pour themselves a drink. (some people won't let him near a cocktail - he has a reputation for making them too strong)

So AGG how do you balance what you are entitled to with what fiance is entitled to? It seems like we POJA things and then he doesn't hold up his end.

V.

GG, more reasons not to live together without marriage.
Easy out, even as a fiance. People view things differently.

This may be where I like the Surrendered Wife approach of just saying "I'm sorry, honey, I can't."

"I can't entertain tonight." "I can't stay up until 3 am wiht your friends any more." And then, you let him do his thing, but you are completely apart from it. In other words, if his friends come over tonight, you go out to see Night at the Museum.

"I can't" is because if you did it would cause you distress and unhappiness. That's different from the defiant "I won't."

As to the landscaping, short of this dud coming over with a shovel, mulch and plants, I don't think you need to worry. He can make all the plans he wants, but you just plant things where you want them.

BTW, out of curiousity, does this man have his own house?

Huh. You know, my reaction to this story is exactly the opposite. I see this as a case example of why living together is good. sunnyva39 is getting the benefits of witnessing this man's day-in-day-out behavior, and not just his best "date" behavior. Now she can factor his behaviors (with his dog, with his friends) into her decision to move forward. When/if she marries him, she won't be able to say "I had no idea you'd put your dog and your friends ahead of me." I'd say she's much better informed than she would have been if she had married him without living with him first.

How obnoxious!

Here's my friend story:

ex has life long friends, a couple, who didn't like me. In fact, the woman in this pair tried to fix ex up with her sister before we married though we were seriously involved.

Over the years I tried to fit in with this couple. They never did warm up to me, did not make efforts to include me & even, I believe, talked me down to ex.

In the end I left ex to have a relationship with his friends without me. These same friends supported ex during D, no surprise, but since I think he had gf while we were married & they new about it, not good.

You may need to ask your F to see if he can find an acceptable way to re-define his relationship with this friend.

I think it's great that you are willing to admit this, let's get back to this in a second.


You are right, you balance both partners' wants (not entitlements) using POJA. I don't think your fiance is a good POJAer from what I have seen in your posts before, so it does not surprise me that he does not hold up his end.

Now, to me, that would be a dealbreaker if my partner habitually made agreements and then broke them. BTDT, been married to one, never again. But, if it only happens occasionally, then it's a judgment call.

I also think you need to consider why he backs out. One answer is that he is wimpy, and his friends/ex/family can easily manipulate him into whatever they want.

Another possible answer, one that I am going to go with even at great peril of getting flamed, is that you are fairly bossy to your fiance, as you said in the sentence I quoted above. I see you post often about how your fiance just does not get that your ways are better/smarter/etc; these are classic Disrespectful Judgments per Harley, even if the facts are correct.

If I am on the right track, then most likely what happens is that your fiance agrees with you, but not enthusiastically, as required by POJA. He does so simply to maintain peace. That is not POJA, and is bound to fail; hence the results you see.

Do you think your fiance was truly enthusiastic about the agreements you made, or did he simply cave in?

AGG

sunny,

This guy sounds a bit like a loafer.From my stand point I would never impose on a friend like that but old habits in that relationship may die hard.And if your fiance thought everyone would understand,but didn't talk to them about it beforehand and keep his boundaries,then of course they would have no clue.Something like "You,Me and Dupree"?

And this guy has no right to plan any landscaping unless he's the hired contractor.Geesh.

I do believe in POJA but your finace,IMO,also needs to step up and make those boundaries stick.If not there's a lot of trouble in your future.You don't need to make snippy remarks but have a heart to heart discussion what you both will take a stand on so you can't be divided.By anyone.

The alternative that seems to happen so often is you both struggle over this issue,it becomes you against him ( "gee my friend was right all along!),then you break up cursing one another for what he/she did or didn't do or felt.I can see that on the horizon.I hope it doesn't get to that.

Quote

This guy is a problem. He is the kind of jerk that would overreact and fiance is afraid to just tell him to quit acting like our house is his because he doesn't want to lose a 20year friendship.

Sounds to me like your Fiance is the problem.

The 20 year friendship is so important to him that he's willing to let it drive a wedge between the two of you?

Time to tell your Fiance to grow up. When a man decides to marry, the rowdy friends from University who crash on your couch and puke in your trashcans go by the wayside. The fact that your Fiance is trying to keep this "friendship" is an enormous red flag...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

sunnyva39,
How will you feel if you marry this guy, and 20 years from now, nothing has changed. The friend is still spending the night, taking over the bartending, taking over the landscaping, keeps treating you light dirt. How will you feel after a 20-year marriage that includes that?

Well darn it, there you go again Sunny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. You "letting fiance know" is not enough, it is not POJA. Did the fiance agree with what you said or not, that is the key question. And I don't mean with a "yes, dear" face, but enthusiastically? Because if he did not, then you have not resolved anything.

AGG

Precisely!

BUT (I wonder/am Curious George here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />):
How could he enthusiastically agree (POJA) to get rid of 20+ years old (good for him) friend?
I.e. how is POJA feasible in this case at all?
(Where this is NOT a dealbreaker...)

Sunny, I too see this as a problem of your fiance, not of that friend... (Btw, does he have family/wife/gf?)
And this:

... "Obligated"?... I 'figure that one out' not to be quite true... i.e. I think that your fiance exactly knows why he likes and wants to have that friend around, and just tries to 'comfort' you stating things like this... (words vs. actions)
I mean... he's not asked to give up their friendship (right?), just to put the friend in the place where he does belong (and that is not between you and him)...
However, I don't believe in 'altruism' nor in THAT kind of obligations in friendships... Something is wrong with your fiance (too) regarding this issue, how I 'feel' it... '(I)Maturity' maybe, and 'priorities' too...