I don't have a lot of time, so I'll be brief and add details later if necessary.


WH and I are currently separated (7 mos post dday) and are not attending MC. WH told me three weeks ago that he has had NC with OW for a month. He then broke NC while the kids and I were away visiting family, and now is starting over.

My question is this: is the act of NC enough to constitute a return to MC or does there need to be a more noticable 'heart change'? WH has always said that NC will never be permanent. He also says that he doesn't want to stop loving OW, but that the fact that he's willing to stop seeing her despite the fact that he doesn't want to stop should be enough...that's the best he can do at this point.

Advice? Thoughts? My pastor thinks I should take the chance and return to MC. My counselor thinks it'd be a huge mistake. WH doesn't think he wants to return to MC with me...I want to make my own determination, but seem stuck. Again.

There's still a whole lot of blame from WH. He's convinced that the way I've handled his A (insisting he give OW up, asking him to leave the house etc.) has only proven I'm incapable of being the person he needs me to be (he says he doesn't 'blame' me for doing what I did, but that because of who I am I just can't meet his needs.) So why is he going NC with OW if he feels this way and likely doesn't want to return to MC? I can't seem to get a straight answer. He says he and OW are doing it for themselves.

I don't know what to do here. How is it that things have gotten so messy?

(A complicating factor: WH lost his job over the A. He will likely have to move out of state in August to get work in his field. I don't want my children to be without their dad in their lives, so I really feel the clock ticking...but don't want to make things worse.)

Thanks for listening.

since it appears as though you are in a modified plan B... i would suggest you just be still right now. Silenece is a powerful ally. While you WH continues in his foggy thinking and ridiculous "logic" you really cannot expect to make any headway with him.

NC is key here. Until and if he commits to it... I would stay firmly where you are at. A NC letter and a committtment to whatever type of counseling (or coaching) you deem necessary should be your line in the sand at this point.

As far as August... its a long way off and really, that clock is ticking for him too. Have you talked with the Harley's about this?

Stay calm and focused.

mainne,


Hopefully he will remember those words as the time he had you laughing hysterically and telling him that he must have confused you with the OW, since you have too much intelligence and self pride to believe that horse manure.

maienne, did you separate at his request or yours? My take on his NC (I am an FWW) is that he is breaking from the OW and you to "see which way he wants to go". It's a small but significant positive thing. By that I mean he knows what he SHOULD be doing (rejoining you) but he's too foggy and hasn't got a clue how this should be done. It's the "ok I know I should go back to my marriage and everything will work out just fine because doing that is what saving my marriage is all about." They, like anyone else who has NO idea what really saving a marriage and working on a marriage is all about, think that's all they have to do.

His NC at the moment is totally selfish on his part. By that I mean he's not considering you, he's doing it to see where HE is at. What he thinks and intends will happen is that he will choose the OW but he's going through the motions of "having a clean break from everyone."

This is where you can do some very good, and vital, work for your marriage, work on showing him where he should really be. With you and your family. That's what Plan A is all about. You can't educate him on MB principles (WS's CAN'T be educated, they're too foggy) but you can use the principles yourself.

Hi Jen,

I requested the separation. Our MC had suggested WH try NC for 2 months to give us a 'safe' environment where we both could operate. WH broke NC after a week. I couldn't take it anymore and said no more two month deal. I needed him to either agree to forever NC or he would need to leave. He went away to a retreat house for the weekend to think about it and came home saying he thought it was right for him to go try and be with OW. He left the next day.

I admit that I suspect he is going NC so that he can say the M dissolved while there was NC. That would relieve him of any blame and open the door for his family to accept OW (my SIL spoke with OW and told her she would never be accepted. If OW broke off contact, however, and gave WH and I a chance to recover without OW in the picture, and WH and I failed anyway, then that would be a different story.)

So, you suggest I go back to Plan A? I'll have to brush up on that...does that include talk of our relationship or not? Do you recommend MC? My gut instinct says, no. I could easily go back to Plan A. Since the topic of returning to MC has come up between us, how should I address it? Just tell him I think he's right...that it's not the right time to return to MC?

My daughter is clamoring for attention, so I'm going to run. I'll try and respond to the other posts later when I have more time.

Thank you!

I would NOT go back to that MC again. "Try NC for 2 months" is probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever, ever heard and EXTREMELY damaging. During my A I "tried" NC for 1 month, I "tried" NC for 2 months. All the wayward person does is wait it out. NC is for life and it is the most powerful tool in the MB plan for recovering a marriage.

If you DO go back to MC, don't go back to that one. I think Plan A is called for again but I hope someone a bit more expert than me will be along to talk to you soon about the finer details. During our first months of recovery our relationship was ALl we talked about. Some days we would say that's enough for today, let's just shelve it for a couple of days. (Recovery is EXHAUSTING, hard work and very emotional).

Thanks for the advice. Are there sample NC letters anywhere? I've searched, but can't seem to find any. It's so hard because WH thinks I've been ungracious by not accepting his offer to go temporary NC in the past. He says if I can't accept him as he is, then I can't ever meet his needs.

...sigh. Here I go again, getting all worked up about what he thinks of me. I just want to do what's right.

Marriage counseling is a waste of time if the WS is still in an affair. And it sounds like he is. It also sounds like your MC has contributed to the problem rather than alleviated it, which is usually the case.

You are way overdue for Plan B, maienne. He has been able to keep up his affair to some degree all this time because he can you keep you around to some degree. In other words, he is cakeeating..and you enabling. Plan B will remove you from his destructive influence and give some a semblance of peace you haven't experienced in some time. This will allow you to think clearly enough to use good judgement in determining any future action.

A nc letter will do you no good if he insists that he will stay in touch with the OW as he pleases.


That is cute. I only hope you didn't laugh too long and hard when he said this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Of course you don't accept him "how he is" if he is committing adultery. Adultery is unacceptable. So it would be UNLOVING of you to "accept" him when he being BAD. True love is helping someone be GOOD, not BAD. Love is not defined by ENABLING bad behavior. If he has a "need" to be harmful and destructive to his marriage, then he won't be married for long. Explain to him this will cause you to fall out of love with him and the marriage can't last if he chooses to be cruel and thoughtless to you. Adultery is ABUSE and you have a "need" and right to protect yourself from his abuse.

How do you respond to him when he so flagrantly tries to manipulate you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I admit that I never wholeheartedly went Plan B. I refused to speak with him unless it was in the presence of our MC or our pastor, but he always managed to convince me. I'm so afraid of the thought of angering him that I chose to risk our M rather than exercise truly tough love.


Still, I would like to see one to see what should be expected...see for myself that what I've asked isn't unreasonable.


In the past (pre-affair) I would put up a fight, see there was no way to win, cry, and then find a way to live with it. I tried to do the same with the A, but thankfully found I couldn't live with myself. It's taken me a long time to draw boundaries, but I now see how I haven't held them very well. OK...so I can beat myself up over it, or I can forgive myself for making mistakes.

And yet, here come the tears again. Having to hear my kids say how much they miss their Dad, and continually ask when he's coming home is hard enough right now. I can't imagine what it will be like once he's across the country. And the thought of one day having to put my kids on a plane and send them away so they can visit him...not to mention the fact that I've lost my husband...my friend.

Ah, the hopelessness. I haven't felt this in a while. I'd almost forgotten the feeling.

Thanks, Melody.

Sorry Mel but in just 48 hours I am invoking the dreaded Plan A once more.

Better to stay in Plan A than go into a cr#ppy Plan B.

A good Plan B necessitates some portion of self respect.

Ouch. I'm assuming that was a nice big slam for me? If you intended to ruffle my feathers, mission accomplished. You are right about one thing...I do lack self respect. Unfortunately, it's going to take a bit longer than 7 mos to undo 20 years of allowing myself to be abused. I've come a long way and though I've made a lot of mistakes, I'm proud of how far I've come.

Again, mission accomplished. Thanks for the kick.

maienne, I have no idea why you got such a slam. Please don't take it to heart. I just never understand why vulnerable people are slammed when they're at their lowest.

Listen to Mel. I also agree that your H needs his head read if he thinks that his "conditions" are sane.

20 years of being abused?

maienne, it is time to go into Plan B. It is time to take back control of your life and stop making yourself available for abuse. Forget the nc letter [he has already refused to end contact so there is no purpose] and go completely dark in Plan B.

Do you know about Plan B? it is not giving him the cold shoulder and only speaking to him in certain conditions. It means sending him a letter telling him you will not be in contact with him AT ALL, that he may not contact you except in an emergency. Its success is completely contingent upon your complete darkness. There is no HALF WAY with Plan B. Half measures will avail you nothing.

And if you are in Plan B, you won't be there to see his anger so you will have nothing to be "scared of." Nor can you afford to allow FEAR to rule your life. That is just silly. You are a grown woman who knows better than to give into foolish feelings. You have your own sanity and the well being of your children to think about so you can't afford the luxury of allowing FEAR to dictate your life. You have to do what is best for yourself and your children. You are all your children have, maienne, so you have be strong.

So, read up on Plan B and start working on a REAL PLAN B strategy, starting with a bonafide Plan B letter. You will also want to set up a visitation schedule where he can pick up the kids without coming into the house so you don't have to see him..

Do you have Surviving an Affair? I would get that ASAP and resd up on Plan B. In the meantime, I will link you to a good Plan B letter and an article about Plan B.

Plan B letter: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897

Article on Plan B: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Your H is openly telling you right here that his affair is not over and he has NO intention of maintaining nc with the OW. It would be a HUGE MISTAKE to allow him to come home under these conditions, maienne. You need to be in Plan B until he agrees to end all contact FOR LIFE and demonstrates an end to his affair. Saying he will "do it for now" will not suffice. That just means he is giving himself permission to resume the affair next month. RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE!

So, get to work on that Plan B letter and don't even think of having any contact with him unless and until he is absolutely commited to NO CONTACT FOR LIFE. EVER.

Have you exposed this affair to all key targets, such as the OW's family, his parents, workplace, etc?

Mel, you may have missed this. A real tough nut, this one.

Kiwi, I did see that. Thanks.

Exposure is complete, although I don't know anything about her family.

I hate to even sit here typing this because I'm just so sick of it, but here goes. I had asked my pastor a couple of days ago (via email) what he saw in WH that I wasn't. He responded saying that he wanted to talk to me in person, but that WH had completely ended the relationship, forever. My first thought was, "Why the heck didn't WH tell me that?" Either he's feeding the pastor lines, the pastor is seeing what he wants to see, or WH has indeed ended things with OW but just doesn't want to R with me.

Any takers on this one? I'm sure you've all heard it all before.

I am physically and mentally drained. I'm going to go play with my kids for a bit and I'll be back later. Thank you everyone for your help and support. I wish I had something to give back...maybe someday.

But your H told you he has no intention of ending contact, maienne. I don't see what difference it makes what he told the pastor; it was a lie. And is irrelevant if he clearly told you he isn't ending contact.

What you do need to know is that he has told you he won't end his contact and is not interested in working on your marriage.

I would also expose this affair to the OW's family. Is she married? Have you confronted the OW yourself?