Thanks eav1967 and blue. These words give me so much strength. I will definately rent that movie. I am going to keep myself busy and focus on what I need to do. It is so hard but I can rely on this board for all the support. I will keep updating my thread to keep me sane and reflecting on how I am doing. Thanks you again

Awakw early in the morning. can't sleep. WH sleeping with me as usual but I was shivering with what this man said about me imprisoning him in the marriage. His complain with me is that he felt obligated to do things for me and I did not care about him. In Plan A with everybody's help. The thoughts of him lying to again to be with the OW and still coming home poker faced blaming me for all the unhappiness kills me. I feel so lonely. I know there is no quick answers. Working from home today and need to focus so that I can goback up and not feel like hugging the man i love. He has re-written the whole history of our marriage to justify his EA and still doing that. I feeling like taking my daughter and going and staying with my uncle and just not be with him. But I can't run awayfrom the situation -right. Think positive.....

Here's a few suggestions:

1. Ask the WS for the DATE when he stopped loving you. I did that since my then WS claimed he never loved me also. So I turned his babble back on him and it went something like this:

WS: I know this is going to hurt but I never should have married you. I don't love you.

Orchid: (look of shock and a lot of anger)....(gave the best performance, I sucked it up and said).... Oh really? You mean you lied to me?

WS: No, I didn't lie to you.

Orchid: Well I got cards, calls and lots of times when you told you me loved me. So were those lies, 'cuz they were quite believable at the time.

Ws: Uh...no, I did love you. I mean I don't love you.

Orchid: Ooohh.... so tell me when did you STOP loving me?

WS: (no response - he only kept looking at the floor....think the answer was written in the carpet????)

Orchid: Was it when your purposed?

WS: No.

Orchid: When we got married?

WS: No.

Orchid: When our son was conceived? Hm....felt a lot of love then?!?!?!?

WS: No.

Orchid: When our son was born?

Ws: No.

Orchid: Ok, I'm now running out of timeframes....when did you start lying to me about loving me? On our anniveraries.... all 9 of them? (see by the 10th one, the EA had started).

WS: I'm not sure.

Orchid: Oh.... so it wasn't that you 'NEVER' loved me.... it's you don't love me now, right?

WS: Yea....something like that (he was squirming now because he knew I had cornered him).

Orchid: Well I agree.... so here's more info. Right now as you are?.... I don't love you either. Pretty good eh? You screwed it up so well, now even I don't like you. You got your out, now.....call the OW and let her know you are coming.....

Then I walked away.

One thing I learned, the WS don't like t/b told what t/d. So when I told him to go call the OW, it confused the WS. He wanted to hurt me but I wouldn't let him (at least I didn't show it) and yet he could break the code and do was I had just commanded (call the OW and let her know you are coming). LOL!!! Had the WS by the Balls and squeezed real hard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's my part of my story.

2. Read the book: Love must be tough (Dobson)

3. Secure your finances

4. Put your personal support group on alert

5. Identify your personal and M boundaries.

6. Prepare to go to plan B and execute when ready. This means your mind and heart must be in sync. You will also need lots of patience.

7. Execute plan B.

8. If you can schedule in a call into Steve H @ MB, he can get you on a plan. A good one.

JMHO,
L.

That was awesome Orchid, Thanks a lot. I really need to try that because I always feel that I cave in front of WH during all conversations. I have told my family about the state which means, I have basically given an ultimatum to WH saying he needs to choose to either come back and work on the marriage or pick up the bags and go. Now I am totally focussed on filling my time with activities along with DD. I know that I will not get any response from WH to the email I sent him saying that he needs to respect boundaries and decide what option of the above that he wants to pick. I have scheduled an appointment with SH on Feb 26th for developing the plan. But I really haven't executed Plan A very well yet especially because I have been unable to avoid the talks of R and M with WH. Also the OW is not an option for him and the WH knows he cannot go to her because she is a family friend and she has convinced all in the family she has nothing more than friendship with WH (WH knows that). He himself claims that he is prepared to wait until the OW gets married to her BF who lives abroad and then get separated. He claims that I have been blaming the problems on the OW by constantly focussing on asking him to exlcude her from his life because it is not about her and he doesn't even consider as OW because he knows he has no future with her. It confuses the ****** out of me. He says he has feelings for her but knows that those feelings will never materialize but he cannot do anything about it. He claims that I don't understand and accept this and continue to pursue "working on marriage" theme while ignoring his state of mind.

Need help to respond to the email recevied by WH. Want to understand what is the fog speak and what is real that can be responded.

"My feelings towards OW are also not circumstantial, so please accept that. I have been completely open with you and told you how I feel about this whole situation and I see you refuse to accept that.

To me we are past the point of making amends and continuing as nothing happened. My life will never be what I hoped for when I was 23 years old and I have accepted it and moved on. I want to live freely and be happy (i am sure you are looking to do that too) but I don't think its possible for me living in this situation. I know myself, you will always feel empty living with me like this and I say this so as to be honest with you. Its not about not being willing to change, but its about recognising what has happened in the past, who we both are as different people and accepting the extent of change that is possible.

To me marriage is about building a relationship at the very beginning with understanding, sensitivity and acceptance. I think we both failed to do this at the very beginning of this relationship and that resulted in the situation we are. To me too much has happened and it cannot be forgotten, even if I tried that I would be living a life of compromises and I don't intend to do that for the rest of my life. You unwillingness to accept what I feel bothers me as it has done in the past, so please acknowledge it and accept it. "

anybody around? any help?

He's in left field and acting typically selfish.

I would present this to Dr. Harley when you have your appointment.

In the meantime, work on yourself and your plans. Sketch a 6 month Plan A. Sketch out a personal financial plan for you and your DD.

Peace.

blue

You may also consider replying with something simple like:

***

H,

Thank you for taking the time to share your feelings and continuing in your commitment to be open and honest. That's important for any family to grow and evolve.

Love is funny. It certainly isn't Utopia and it probably never was meant to be! It has its ups and downs. We fall in and out of love our entire lives - with the same people! Love is, however, a verb. And I'm going to learn from our past and act on it to make a better me; I'm not going to live in the past or be dictated by it. I'm going to grow and become a better, stronger me.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

W

***

blue

Thanks a lot blue. I will respond briefly as you sugegsted. I have already presented SH with the email. Thanks you again for your support.

Orchid I ahve ordered the book you suggested.

Does anybody have suggestions of a good family attorney in NJ who I can reachout to for discussing financial options.

Orchid: Ok, I will try but remember these are only my responses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Hm... really?!?!? Not circumstantial. Sounds like somebody planned all this chaos. Who?!?!?


Orchid: Completely open? As of when? After you were exposed (or name the time the truth came out vs all the lies and inuendos). What you should see is my refusal to live your lie with you. What you should know is I choose NOT to enable your warped WS thinking and enable your A. Read this paragraph until you get it.


Orchid: Note to Moveon: Do you see how it is all about him? His desire t/b 'free & happy' is greater than his love for his family. Don't address this point...yet.


Orchid: Note to Moveon: Did you see his sentence? 'I know myself, you will always feel empty living with me like this and I say this to be honest with you.' Sounds more like I don't know myself but I need to make you feel empty because as a WS I honestly don't like you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Notice his 'unwillingness' to change, instead trying to justify the past.

I would comment a bit on this one, something like: Your words are a bit confusing. More like babbling. You start off talking about yourself, then change to me, then change to you then back and forth again. Quite confusing don't you think? As for feeling comfortable in a past that has lead to the horrible changes in your personality, well....that's not only illogical but sad to hear.


Orchid: It took you betraying your family to make you an expert on what marriage really is? Isn't that like going to the mortuary to get your teeth cleaned? YUCK!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Uhm... well dear, I am more than willing and have been making great strides at taking responsibility for my actions. Learning to improve myself for the benefit of myself and those I love but I know I did NOT contribute to you having an A. You get to keep that privilege all to yourself. Don't you ever credit me with that piece of failure in your life.

(Now I will tell you that I said similar to my then WS and I was angry).


Orchid: You are certainly correct about a lot happening. My broom and carpet are not big enough to sweep it all under. It is a shame you have chosen not to fight for what is most important in one's life, our family. What bothers me is to see you lose the goodness in life that you once had and replace it with such a selfish outlook. You will be a sad man for the rest of your life, with regrets you will never recover from...but that's your choice.

As for accepting it, I have accepted more than you will ever realize. As for moving forward....the gap between my recovery and yours widens by the day. You seem to be going backwards in life and sometimes take paths that make you worse.


Ok, those are my very blunt and harsh responses. See at this stage, I see no reason to soft pedal any messages. There is a small window of communication and you must use it wisely. Most WS' can only handle a little bit of communication. So to spend time making it all pretty and nice is a waste (IMHO). When I dealt with my Ws, it was to make my point and exit ASAP. As it was it would take him between 5 - 10 days (literraly) to digest anything I said or asked. Even simple stuff.

The object is to recognize his babble and give him back his guilt.

take care,
L.

Thanks a lot Orchid. I am sorry for delay in posting here. I spoke to SH and he too read through the above email that I shared. He has asked me to stay in Plan A and avoid LBs. At the same time he advised me to engage WS and appeal to his logic so that he sees the flaw in his beilef system. Just to tell him that you accept the situation but you don't accept that we M has gone beyond fixing until we have explored all the options.

I took the advice of tough love and sent an email to WS basically telling him that unless he respects the boundaries, he is free to pack his bags because I choose to move on. I am making changes which make me stronger, happier and on path to recovery. He chose to marry me out of his free will and he is free to choose to join me in this path of recovery. God has been with me in past and will always be there to open new doors for me when the others close shut. I have accepted the reality and all I want is to explore the options in front of which offer us individual and collective happiness.

I have just found out that the WS forwarded that email to OW and has been acting extremely restless. He spent a lot of time out of the house over the weekend and told me that he had been thinking about his life. We did have some good time watching TV and visiting my family. He usually hasn't been very open to going and seeing my family but yesterday he offered to go himself. Another strange response was when he said that has my books and counsellor advising me to expand friend circle and interactions with friends. I told him that is there anything bad in meeting up with friends and if he doesn't like it he doesn't have to. To that he said no he is fine but just wondering. I told him if he wishes I will give him all the material I am using which has helped me. He nodded to that and so I have given him the EN and LB book along with a print out of the SH's summary of basic concepts. Let's see. I have been a little sick and he has given me massage and taken care of me last night.

After sending him the "you are free to choose" email I had also set him a meeting invite for coming Thursday to discuss and explore our options which surprisingly he accepted. Thursdays he works from home and we can talk when DD is in school.

Now I want to completele prepared for our interaction on Thursday. My goal is to make him see that there is another option which can help us achieve the M of dreams. I am not looking to push him or trap him but just fan the spark of hope.

Need tonnes and tonnes of advise and help. Please all the pros, help me out here. this may be my small opportunity....

Orchids, believer, MelodyLane, Misterblue, pros anybody out there to help?

Anybody out there listening?

What kind of help are you expecting? He is a WS sharing your e-mails with the OW. You invite a WS to dinner? Why?

Do you always open your home to scum? Step back, listen to Steve....really listen, read SAA & Love must be Tough. Learn how to tell the difference between the WS and H.

Treat your H well (when he shows up) but don't coddle the WS. If he is in the WS mode when he comes over.....tell him to leave.

If you question this method, talk to Steve.

You want help but what are you doing to help yourself? Read, meditate and apply as needed.

Then when your H shows up more often, go read His needs/Her needs so you can learn HOW to communicate effectively with your H and NOT the WS.

When dealing with the WS, learn when to believe and when to throw back the babble.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks Orchid. I understand what you are saying. What I am trying to do is following what Steve has prescribed i.e. engage H to get him to talk to SH. How can this be done? It is possible only if H wants to - right? so I need to communicate with him to appeal his logic so that he can see that there may just be something out there which he can explore or investigate that can bring him happiness and the M he wants with me without feeling obligated/forced/threatened. what I amm looking help with is developing a skill of communicating with H (whenever he shows up). I am totally practicing the reverse babble with WH and simply not engaging the WH at all. But I am seeing H once in a while and that the window when I need to get my point across. What I am looking for help with are those tips. So far my plan for this coming thursday is to demonstrate to H (if he shows up) the value of negotiating without AO and DJs. I am putting my mantra that SH has prescribed into a letter that I am planning to read out to him and then simply leave with my DD to have dinner at my aunt's place and stay with them overnight so that he has enough time digest wat I have said without my presence pressurizing him. He can sit in the empty house or choose to leave and come back to an empty house without me and DD which he so takes for granted.
I am not leaving the home forever but just for this Thursday night to give him the feel.
Thoughts?

IMHI, just don't engage the WS into a convo. Give him the info and just stick to the facts..... WS' can't handle more that and most hate even that. But it is a necessity.

I learned that the nicer I was to the WS, the worse he treated me. Why? He had no respect for a BS who was willing t/b mistreated.

Big lesson for me.

L.

Orchid, you are my hero. Seriously.

If he has no respect for you Moveon, he has no interest in returning to you. A WS will never return to a BS in a state of needy clinginess or in despair.

Let me pull a line from a very wise friend:
What would you do if you weren't afraid? (Or, what would you say?)

Thank you so much. I get the message. I will stay focussed on Plan A and not engage WS at all

Plan A your spouse, Plan B your wayward spouse.

My best wishes and prayers for you Moveon! You can do this, it starts with you respecting yourself and going from there.

Thanks a lot Jayban for all your support.