Am I just being a sentimental old fool or what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Does it ever get to you like it has me. All the pain of those who are hurting because of inexcusable actions of those they love. To see and read about the disregard the WS is showing the BS. And the number just keeps on multiplying.

My own emotions have been magnified by this whole experience to the point it becomes almost overwhelming at times.

When you look at the sheer number on this sight alone and the must dozens of other such sights as well as the thousands that don't get help like this at all it becomes mind boggling at the magnitude of the attack upon the whole concept of M and the nuclear family.

Can we expect that the values we grew up with of the Nuclear family to survive this onlslaught, Or is the whole thing going become an anachronism of he past? The latest surveys said that only about 48% of American women are actually living in a M.

Just wondered what everyone thought here?

Yeah, it is mind-boggling. I feel the same as you sometimes. But if everyone starts speaking up, and supporting marriage, things can be turned around.

I try to help IRL also. There is a young man at work I talked to about 2 years ago. I supported him in staying with his WW. Yesterday I found out he is getting kicked out of the Navy (E6). He went home unexpectedly on Christmas eve and the doors were locked. Wife didn't come to the door, so he kicked it in, and caught wife with an MP, naked in the bedroom closet. He went UA for a week, and is not being booted.

Sometimes, I just want to tell people to give up and find a decent partner.

The truth about that article came out today. Another slanting of statistics to "prove" that marriage is declining. Nothing of the sort from the real data. They threw in things like women 15 and older (like a LOT of 15,16,17..year old girls are married), women whose spouses were deployed etc.

NEVER trust the NY Times.




It used to, earlier in recovery. I used to strongly recomment that people who were newly into recovery should NOT read the JFO board and should restrict most of their posting to the Recovery forum to avoid the onslaught of emotions from identifying with other posters plights.




That IS, in my humble opinion, a severe indictment of the secularization of our society and the onslaught against ANYTHING that "smacks" of God. Thank you ACLU for a large part of that.

My humble opinion?

Too few people with intact values.

That and the "consumist" society we live in.

Everything everywhere, from movies to advertisement, magazines, internet, is comtemplating infidelity as something acceptable, common, normal... and then the new wave of phyco therapists that even claim themselfs as being sexual therapists saying out loud that human kind was born to have several partners.... and the list goes on....

Internet, is bringing all kinds of porno, swinging sites, threesomes, etc available to anyone.

The man from the past was/is still supposed to be unfaithfull... the new women discoverd that's it's not fair, they also have the same rights as men...

People have to be real strong on their beliefs to "survive"all this wrong information.

It's all too discusting, it was to me always, but more now as a BS.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=32011

Marriage Today: What 1,001 Couples Report

----> some good news, i think

An A is the ultimate act of selfishness and entitlement. Little wonder there are so many mental health problems and disturbed kids. You reap what you sow, unfortunately for many, it's a garden of weeds.

Forever - I saw the same article refuting the NYT stats, you're right not to trust the NYT and Maureen Dowd in particular.

V/r,
No way

Did you see the statistics on the last page of that report?

Crisis: Infidelity
Percentage Who Experienced It: 13%
Positive (effect): 20%
Negative (effect): 67%

If I read that correctly, the stats suggest that only 13% of current Ms have experienced an A, and of those Ms, 67% of the affected spouses indicate that after surviving the crisis (the A), the M was worse than before.

What an excellent site!

I especially enjoyed this one:

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=31594

I think about this issue every time I check out this forum. Every day so much pain and suffering is inflicted upon people because of infidelity.

If people didn't throw the word "love" around with regard to their motivation for pursuing a romantic affair, I think the rest of us would probably look at infidelity as a kind of mental illness. Socially though, many people are prepared to accept almost any behavior done in the name of love. Can you think of any other self-destructive act that isn't widely recognized as requiring some kind of therapy to cure? Alcoholism, drug abuse, anorexia? We know these things are conditions where the victims need help of some kind. But infidelity? Too many people are apt to say, "There must have been something wrong with their marriage," or "He/she just didn't love their spouse anymore and found true love in someone else."

Another things that bothers me is the notion that infidelity has somehow become socially acceptable; at times even glorified in movies and TV as a means of finding your one true love. That would mean that too many of us depend on social constraints to keep us from engaging in morally unacceptable behavior, rather than each of us living by our own high moral and ethical standards regardless of the message pop culture sends to our society.

I'm not sure it's a matter of not having the right values so much as it's a matter of not knowing how to resist temptations. It seems to me that most people seem to understand that cheating/adultery is wrong. But, like many things in our society, people are constantly bombarded with the option to do something they shouldn't do: calories they don't need to consume leading to weight problems (guilty here!), goods they don't need to buy leading to debt, or "secret friends" they don't need to form relationships with.

I think the primary reason for the rise in adultery is the smashing of barriers to having an affair. Affairs used to be somewhat impractical for large sections of the population (women, mostly) becuase they lacked opportunities. Now, with more women in the work place AND with the ease of meeting people on the internet, all those barriers have been removed. When you put men and women together to mingle... friendships form... relationships spring up ... and here we are.

It would be easier, I think, if it was just a matter of people not believing that adultery is wrong. Then, it would be easier to find a spouse that believed the way you did -- you'd have the open marriage people living with the open marriage people and the monogamous marriage people pairing up with the monogamous marriage people. That doesn't seem to be the case -- most of the time people come here shocked because they always "knew" their spouse thought cheating was wrong. And, chances are, their spouse still DOES think cheating is wrong but was unable to resist the temptation and so built a complex series of rationalizations around why what s/he is doing isn't really cheating.

I think the solution, if there is one, is not to re-establish the barriers (you can't put the genie back in the bottle, the internet isn't gonig anywhere) but rather to work on helping people resist temptations and make better choices. On this, I think perhaps Forever Hers and I would agree. I just know we'd probably go about doing that very differently.

I think the values are there: people believe cheating is wrong. I think the will to find a way to resist temptation is what's missing.

Mys

I agree, Myschae, it's just that I think pop culture has played a role in softening those values.

It's a kind of morality of expediency. It is almost an unconscious philosophy that goes like this: If it is expedient for me to live by this code, I will do so, otherwise I might do anything that seems to serve my best interest at the time.

Maybe its a legacy of the "me" generation.

IMHO, our society as a whole has become so self absorbed. its all about the self. just look at the cars, bigger, better more fuel consumption...fast food, bigger, better, more lard on your rearend. we, as a society have a problem with setting our own limits, and the climate out there tells us it is right and good because we are "taking care of number one"

Tammy Bruce hits the nail on the head in her book "the death of right and wrong" Society gives an acceptable excuse for every unattractive behavior.
if you beat your wife...its ok, someone must have wronged you. if you steal a car...its ok, your mother deserted you. if you cheat on your W... its ok, she never loved you. where in todays society is anyone taking responsibility for their actions???? nowhere.

now I am getting political, watch out. when you give people an excuse for their behavior they remove themselves from feeling, owning responsibility for their actions and jump in and start to defend themselves..... Defense is reactive, not proactive. so by victimizing them you change their focus and remove their ability to make proactive, positive changes in their life. our society is stuck in this victim mentality.

I agree.

I think, though, that the role has more to do with creating unrealistic expectations for people. Look at commercials. Everything in life is supposed to be 'fun.' Food is 'fun.' Cars/driving is 'fun.' Even cleaning is supposed to be 'easy and fun.' If it isn't, then that means that you are missing out. Buy this product. Change your life. Look at how much ~FUN~ everyone but YOU is having.

Dating is easy. Fights get resolved in 30 minutes with witty comebacks. People die -- but it's OK because you flash forward a few years and find out that people have moved on. Or, they gracefully fade from view once the poignant scene has ended. Or, if they suffer, we find out they deserved it. People have affairs and families are torn apart -- but it's OK because we find out that everyone adjusted and lived happily ever after. Besides, it was TRUE LOVE (tm) and you can't argue with that, can you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I still think the values are there; I just think that pop culture makes it harder to resist temptation because there are all these "in your face" examples of people who are having "it all." And, people wonder why THEY can't have 'it all,' too. You're constantly told that you "deserve" the best - the fastest - you're worth it, aren't you?

It's a morality of consumption/entitlement. Want more. Get more. Have more. The one with the most toys wins the game. Count up the sheer number of things in your household that are completely dedicated to your entertainment. Video games, television, radio, TiVo (dvr), dvd player, computers, internet, books.... We have an array of things waiting to fill our time in the event we find some time to relax after working to pay for all the things we could do in our spare time if we had it.

It's not just affairs. It's people doing all kinds of things they know they shouldn't because the temptations are too great. I look at my life and I know that I eat way too many of the wrong things (and have weight issues) because it's easier. It tastes better in a lot of cases. It's even less expensive a lot of the time. Look at all the shows they have now on debt reduction. People shop themselves into financial ruin. It's all around you and it's hard to ignore or not fall into SOME sort of bad habit.

It's not a lack of values. I know better. I know I should exercise more and not-so-much eat less but eat differently. It's sheer self indulgence. I know this, yet I struggle finding the will to find a way to change it. I'm just like everyone else.

Mys

Er...anyway, I wasn't trying to derail the topic. My point with all of that ranting was that there are countless opportunities that come with convienent, built-in rationalizations of why people deserve <whatever>.

Most of the time, I see people wanting to focus on limiting or eliminating the opportunities. I think we'd get a lot further a lot faster if we simply started working on teaching people how to delay gratification, endure a little, and resist/turn away from temptation.

Then again, that's a value, isn't it?

Maybe the value that's missing isn't so much 'fidelity' as it is 'self control or delayed gratification.'


Mys

Very well put. We are certainly the most materialistic society that ever existed, and rapidly becoming the least spiritual.

Oddly enough, as a teacher and a mother, my wife frequently conveyed the message that the choices we make have consequences, and bad choices have bad consequences. She knows well enough that what she did and is doing is wrong, but she has apparently convinced herself that placing the blame on me or our marriage somehow reduces her guilt. And so the affair continues.

Many years ago some high schools had ethics classes. Maybe we need something similar to prepare young people for marriage and child rearing. We must show them the terrible things that result from infidelity/adultery. They need to read or hear about the case histories, the pain inflicted on spouses and children, and the destruction of families, by conveying the message in the same way they are shown how drugs and alcohol can ruin your life.

I'm not sure a lack of spirituality is always to blame nor is it necessarily the 'cure.' I don't see this as a secular/religious/spiritual issue (though I understand that many people do and there's nothing wrong with that.) I see it as a societal one.

I'm an athiest and I feel this way...

Mys
Your friendly, neighborhood athiest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

By spirituality, I am not necessarily referring to any religious beliefs, but simply any belief system or philosophy that acknowledges that human beings derive their ultimate happiness or peace from non-material things.

Wow! I had no idea I was opening such a discussion..

But that is how I feel. This whole thing of permissivenes is totally out of control.

You posts are all very thought provoking and that may be what is needed around here.

I particularly like thought of teaching ethics as pertaining to relationships in the schools. I think that is great idea. It is certainly a place to start.

First off, one should consider that the appearence of a rise in infidelity may be just that, an appearence. What I mean is that information is so much more readily available, with the advent of the internet, more TV, more magazines, just more information. I don't know if the problem has increased substantially, it may be just more publicized. I mean if it weren't for the internet, none of us on MB would know that there were so many others in similar situations.

If there has been an increase, I don't think I'd say values have declined or acceptance or empathy has increased. It has remained stable.

What I think has changed is the decline in general level of happiness for most people, the increase in opportunities (good and bad) to address that, and a decline in the use of reasoning skills of most people when choosing between opportunitites.

Why are people unhappy? Probably a mix of things getting harder and people's expectations going up. Why have opportunities increased? New technology, more people, less isolation, etc. Why the decline in reasoning skills? Probably a combination of the above leaving less time to actually think about things, let alone teach people how to do it.

I think the reasoning part is the biggest one that throws people for a loop versus changes in values or empathy.

Have you ever asked where do values come from? What purpose do they serve? Think about it some.

IMHO, values can always be traced to reason. Products of the mind.

Think about when you adopt something as a value. Is it because you were taught it? Is it when you claim it to be one of your values?

IMHO, it is when you have reasoned out what that value means. It is when you have evaluated the approrpiateness of that value for your self. A product of the mind.

There is a difference between being taught what is right and wrong versus taking what you were taught and reasoning it out, deciding for your self what is right and wrong.

Going against what you were taught was a value is vastly different than going against a value you set for your self.

I used to think that WS's value system changed. I wonder now if the value never really existed. I don't say that as an insult or that WS's have no values. But honestly, how many people put much thought into infidelity before it happens. You just go with what you were taught. Before the A when a WS says infidelity is wrong, how much of that is repetition of what they were taught?

When people are stunned and think that the WS values changed, one could argue that you were incorrect in thinking the value really existed. The WS never really reasoned it out, never put their mind to it. I would say most BS's fall into the same camp prior to D-day. How many BS have now truly internalized the value of faithfulness. They have had to reason it out and truly decide for themselves that infidelity is wrong.

IMHO, the decline in reasoning is more to blame. Is that a value? I don't know.

I believe we are living the results of some parts of the womens movement gone awry...

that just like big organizations and leaders and large groups....

we knee jerk the pendulum too far this way or that....

look how prohibition knee jerked alcohol in to being illegal...

and that parts of the womens movement knee jerked men in to be disposable tissues....

and that this generation is the offspring of that generations....mis guided villification of the male....

and we reap what we have sown.....

that the abortion issue feeds the cog-wheel monstrosity that men have no value in decisions..

and on and on and on....

here an excerpt from Peggy Nonnan article...title
WELCOME BACK DUKE


I should discuss how manliness and its brother, gentlemanliness, went out of style. I know, because I was there. In fact, I may have done it. I remember exactly when: It was in the mid-’70s, and I was in my mid-20s, and a big, nice, middle-aged man got up from his seat to help me haul a big piece of luggage into the overhead luggage space on a plane. I was a feminist, and knew our rules and rants. “I can do it myself,” I snapped.

It was important that he know women are strong. It was even more important, it turns out, that I know I was a [censored], but I didn’t. I embarrassed a nice man who was attempting to help a lady. I wasn’t lady enough to let him. I bet he never offered to help a lady again. I bet he became an intellectual, or a writer, and not a good man like a fireman or a businessman who says, “Let’s roll.”

But perhaps it wasn’t just me. I was there in America, as a child, when John Wayne was a hero, and a symbol of American manliness. He was strong, and silent. And I was there in America when they killed John Wayne by a thousand cuts. A lot of people killed him—not only feminists but peaceniks, leftists, intellectuals, others. You could even say it was Woody Allen who did it, through laughter and an endearing admission of his own nervousness and fear. He made nervousness and fearfulness the admired style. He made not being able to deck the shark, but doing the funniest commentary on not decking the shark, seem . . . cool.



I say cut the pscycho babble...and bring back the MAN in MEN...

ARK