Hi all, I need advice. Please help...

3 mnths ago, my W found out that I cheated on her with a prostitute while she was overseas
and kicked me out of the house. She was and still is adament that she want's a divorce.
Prior to the incident with the prostitute, I also had a major problem with internet porn.
My W constantly complained about it and I used to think that she was making a big deal out of nothing,
until I realised that I had a problem in 2005 and installed software on my PC at home & at work, which
informs my W of my activity on the Net. That helped me get off the porn addiction, but then 7 mnths ago,i did the unthinkable.

We have been to 1 session to a MC who told us that we both had brought a lot of baggage
into our marriage and b4 addressing our marriage, we both need to have IC.
I have been going ever since but W refused and still does not want to try and work on our M.

IC has been helping me understand what drove me to porn and ultimately to seek SF outside our M
and after reading HNHN, I also realised what I was doing wrong throughout our 7 yr M, aside from the porn and cheating.
After realising these things about myself, I have made a significant efforts to change the behaviours within me,
that have played such a major role in the destruction in our M.
I have been doing everything I can to prove to my W that the changes I have been making are not just superficial but becoming permanent,
but she does not believe that this is so.

She has been involved in an EA for the past 2 mnths with an old friend that I knew as well, and I suspect that this has or very soon could become a PA.
I have spoken to the OM and told him to back off and let us deal with this ourselves, as we have 3 kids and whatever we do not only affects us but the kids as well.
He is also married and has 5 kids of his own.
Even though he claims to be just a friend trying to help her with positive advice, all I can see is that he is causing more confusion in her mind.
My W is in a very difficult place right now and he seems to be taking advantage of the situation.
The more I seem to do, the colder and more distant and hurtful she seems to be towards me.
It's getting very difficult to stay positive and listen to my Giver when she is constantly tramping on my heart.
I have been getting inspiration from GOD and LilSis's thread about not giving up but the past 2 days have been terrible.

My W still is pushin the D, trying to get me to do it but I flatly refuse. I told her that, if she wants, she could start the proceedings
I still believe that we can AND will be together again, but it's getting harder by the day to keep my hopes up.
Alot of my friends and family have been telling me to forget it and move on, but it's not so easy when your heart is involved

I don't know what else to mention to you all, this is the gist of the story. Please help!

Anybody??? If anyone has anything theyd like to know please ask, I could use all the help I can get.

Have you called S. Harley?

I'd like you to get help and support, but I'm afraid I must disqualify myself...

Pep

Sorry no one has come to help. Weekends are slower around here.

Read everything you can about infidelity beginning at the home page of this site.

It is important you fully understand the dynamics about affairs before you try to much of anything.

Read about Plan A, and about exposure first and try to understand those concepts.

Hopefully, others will be along shortly and offer more help.
SD

Your situation is a tough one for me but I want you to know that I have read your post and I do feel sympathy for your situation. It has only been 3 months since your PA has come to light so you guys have a long hard road ahead of you.

You should realize that just because you are ready to work on the marriage that doesn't mean that she is. I think that she is having her EA mostly out of revenge. That said she does not have the right to do it. It's just as bad as what you did. I know that you likely aren't taking a very hard stance with her since you are guilty about your own A.

You are in the unique position of being a WS and a BS at the same time. So you have to do what any BS should do and expose her affair, go to plan A etc while at the same time try to show her that you are a changed man and work on recovering from your own A.

No matter what, if her EA has already been exposed you must insist that it ends right now if there is going to be any chance of the marriage working. Do not let her fog talk you and try to justify her actions by saying but you did it to me! This is true you did do it to her but you know now that you were wrong and are taking 100% responsibility for what you have done.

Tell her that if she wants to at least give it a chance and see if it will work out that she cannot do it and continue on with her EA. Let her know that if she chooses to continue on with the EA that is as good as saying to you that she no longer wants to be married.

I think you are scared to tread to heavily because you fear she will leave you. I wouldn't worry so much about that because if she really wanted to leave she would be gone. The fact that she hasn't left means that she too is living in fear, to scared to make a decision either way so she fence sits and is cake eating right at this moment.

Mr A,

Expose what the OM is doing to his wife. Let his wife know immediately - she has the right to know that he is playing with fire, and she can be an ally in ending the EA. His wife will start watching what he is doing, where he's going, etc., and that will reduce the amount of time your wife spends with OM.

Read up on Plan A.

Spend $185 bucks and call the Harleys. The counseling can get you started on a good Plan A.

LisSis's thread shows what Plan A looks like, so think about the things you can do for your wife to show her that you love her.

Buy His Needs, Her Needs, and read it. Ask your wife to read it with you. You can order it from this site, get it at the local Borders bookstore, or from Amazon.com. Take the time to really do what it says. It helps.

Get Relationship Rescue by Phil McGraw, and do the work in the questionnaires in that book - and then answer the questions with your wife on the 14 day plan in the back part of the book. It can help you both talk about things you need to talk about, without counselors or anyone else. Maybe she will be more comfortable with that.

Read here, and ask your wife to come here and read.

Thank you all for the replies. Much apprecited.

Pep - No, I havn't called Steve Harley. I live in South Africa and don't know what the cost factor would be or what the contact no. is. Is there an email address that I can email him on?
I understand if you need to disqualify yourself, altough I would have liked some more of your input, after reading the excellent advise & help you and the other MB Army have been giving LilSis.

Shattered Dreams - I have been reading a lot about infidelity, Plan A and exposure for quite some time, in order to try and understand where I went wrong in our M and why she would want to persue an EA. I have been trying to implement as much of the Plan A as possible, only for it to be thrown ( more like flung) back in my face as manipulation and deceitful tactics on my part...so untrue.

Almondeyes - I do know that she is being vengeful. When she first found out, she mentioned to a few mutual friends that she was going to make me suffer and just recently, she said that "Payback's a [email]B1t@h".[/email] She keeps saying that there are no more chances and that what I ask of her, she does not have to give. She needs to look out for herself.
I do sometimes fear treading too heavily because of the fear of losing her and our babies and sometimes I feel that she is testing me by deliberately being hurtful and then telling me to do what I want, meaning give her a D, so that she can say that I was the one who wanted to end our M. I have not given in and refuse to do so, I do sometimes see that little sparkle in her eyes, although she is a master at hiding it, and claims that I'm imagining it.
She has mentioned that is is fearful that ifshe gives me another chance that I will do this sort of thing again in the future and that she is also fearful of making the wrong decision for her and the kids. That was a little while ago and she hasn't mentioned it lately though.
I have told her that if she wants to end it, she needs to start the proceedings, but I have not given up hope and will not.

Schoolbus - I am in the process of obtaining the OM's wife's no. and will expose as soon as I have it. He is from another part of the country but comes to these parts fairly often on business. Her sister is aware that they are in contact, and says that although she loves me, she has her sister's back and would rather not get involved. Her mum knows, and has been extremely helpful (she is trying to get OM W no. for me). Her main concern are her grandchildren, but she also feels that W should at least try to work things out with me, as there are others that have been thru far worse sitchs & have come through it stronger. W is very upset with MIL cos she feels that MIL is taking my part in this. MIL says that W is not really interested in OM, as she knows OM very well, and that W is just using OM right now.
There are a few others that are aware of it now, but no one can seem to get through to my W now. I am thinking of also exposing to W grandma and aunts, whom she practically grew up with. Not sure if they should know right now, but they do seem to have influence over W.
Have been reaing all about Plan A but like i said, whatever I do is sent hurtling back in my face with words like, "What you are doing means nothing to me" and "Too little, too late".
I have to get in touch with the Harleys. $185 is alot when converted to local currency, but my M is worth more.
Like I said in my original post, LilSis's thread have been providing me with inspiration from the time I started reading it. What a rock!
Bought HNHN a while back, read it and realised that there was much more than the betrayel that I was guilty of in our M and that my Love Bank balance must now be overdrawn and W is in a state of Withdrawel. I have been trying to implement as much as possible , but it seems to be only pushing her further away.
After reading it, I asked her if she'd like to read it and gave it to her. It's been over a month and she has not even touched it.
Will get Relationship Rescue by Phil McGraw and work with it. Have been on his website and have got some valueable info. from there too.
The hard part is getting the wife to work with me, 1stly because I am not staying there, in order to "give her space" and 2ndly, 'cos she just won't talk to me about our M. She justs keeps saying that she want's out. She feels that she knows waht she knows and nobody or nothing can tell her otherwise.
I have been here daily since I registered and have been reading. I will ask her to come on and read, but I somehow doubt she will. Worth a shot anyway.

I have been thinking of just moving back home, but what's worrying me is that she will want to take the kids with her.
She does not really have another place to stay, nor can she afford getting another place as she does not have a job at the moment plus the kids are back at school and it would disrupt their stability. She says that when I am around the house, she cannot handle it, but I've been out for 3 months & it seems that she still hasn't made any progress with her emotions. All I see is progress with the EA. Would moving back be a good idea?

Thank you all for the feeback, and I hope you all have more advice to give me.

Mr_A

Get Skype installed on your computer and you can call Dr. Harley very cheaply (possibly free if it is PC-to-PC).

Your W has every right to a divorce if she wants one. You cannot stop her from doing that. You can try to save the M but it is not only up to you. She has a choice too.

Have you both been tested for STD's? Looking at the HIV numbers for where you live, I would be very concerned. HIV rates where you live are some of the highest in the world. Virulent TB? What were YOU thinking?

If you click on the "Counseling Center" tab at the top, you will be able to find everything you need to know to contact Dr. Harley including email addresses.

Very good idea about Skype. Thanks very much.

I hear what you are saying about her right to a divorce and I do believe that if she is requesting a D after rationally and logically thinking things through, then I suppose that I would have to respect her wishes. However, ever since she has found out, her behaviour has been anything but rational.
I do not feel right mentioning what she has been doing, and the EA is not what I'm talking about. If you want to know, perhaps PM or email me or if you or anyone feel that I it would be better mention it on the forum, maybe I will.
But suffice to say, she has definitely not been in the right frame of mind to make such a decision, one that not only affects the 2 of us, but our children and our families and friends.

As for the testing for STD's & HIV, yes, I have been tested and am negative. I cannot condone what I did, especially as you mention, considering the statistics in this part of the world. I made an enormous mistake in judgement, one that I regret with all my heart and am suffering the consequences of. But I have accepted my mistake and am taking all the steps necessary to ensure that it will not occur again. My IC sessions have highlighted the facts that it was due to low self esteem and improper boundaries that firstly, allowed me to accept the porn as "normal" and once that avenue was closed, it escalated to the prostitute.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I am now the perfect man, I am still working hard, but I am on my way to being the best man that I can be. That is all that I can do!

Oh, and btw, thanks for pointing out the Counseling Center link.

It sounds like she has been dealing with your addictions for many years. According to Dr. Harley's thinking, there is no point in even trying to reconcile with an addict until the addiction is dealt with.

Regardless of what your wife is doing or not doing now, I am not quite comfortable with you being the one to decide what is right or wrong for her. Your concept of marriage, to this point, has certainly been pushing the envelope. You say that you would welcome divorce if she were following certain behaviors. First I don't believe that is true. I think you had a good deal and don't want to lose it. I am not going to be able to convince myself that you are doing this for her good rather than your own. But that's my problem - not yours so don't worry about what I think.

Why don't you want to mention what she is doing? You want people to help you yet you withold information that is apparently quite critical (in your view). Nobody here is in it for the gossip mongering and you and your W have a great deal of anonymity if you don't post specific personal details.

How long has it been since you were with the hired help? I'm no expert on HIV testing but if that encounter was fairly recent, you may want to have that test repeated in a few months. Certainly do the research. I was under the impression it was something like 3 or 6 months afterward that a test might show positive.

My addiction has been dealt with. Porn is no longer an issue with me and hasn't been for over a year. Whenever I felt stressed or emotionally down, that's what I would go for. During these past months, I have been constantly feeling this way, and have had ample opportunity to do so, without her knowing, but I know now that I don't need that or "hired help" to feel better about myself. The tools I have received from IC have helped me figure out my triggers and how to respond to them positively.

The reason I didn't want to mention what she has been up to, is 'cos it feels like a betrayel of her privacy, but thinking about what you say, maybe it is better that I do.
For starters, she has been substance abusing (weed) daily, going out clubbing & harder drugging (Ecstacy) practically every weekend, has been arrested for drug possesion and is currently out on bail, and has been communicating daily and spending time, when he is in this part of the country, with OM who is a drug dealer.
Would you say that this is the behaviour of a rational person? After her arrest, she said that it was a wake up call for her, yet the very next weekend, she was back doing what she was doing before.

The hired help incident occured in June'06 and testing was done, 5 months later. I confirmed with the physician that it would have shown up if I was positive.

Please, make no mistake! I don't want to seem to be an angel her at all. I also used to smoke weed daily and occasionally went out clubbing and taking X.
Being in Saudi Arabia, you should know all about Ramadaan, and it was before last Ramadaan that I decided to clean up my life, get off the weed, and truly make physical & spiritual changes in my life. In fact, we both began praying more regularly, getting the children in the habit of prayer as well and we seemed to be heading in the right direction, but the guilt I was feeling did not allow me to be fully intimate & honest with her, and she sensed ( she is very perceptive) that I was hiding somthing.
It was only after Ramadaan dat she found the proof and when she confronted me, I told her the truth, although many friends and family told me not to.
And since then everything has been on a downward spiral.
She has chosen to deal with it in the way that she is and I have continued trying to make the changes in my life permanent and I feel that I am succeeding, although she keeps say "Too little too late"

Okay let me explain what I read.

You have been off your porn addiction for 1 year.

You visit a hooker 6 months ago (+/-).

That seems a little contradictory.

You say you decided to clean up your life around Ramadan. That was about 3 months ago. Don't get paranoid. I'm just weird about these things.

So you did drugs and it was okay. Now wife does drugs and it is wrong. This is a conundrum and not from my POV. This has to confuse the heck out of your W.

Okay. I'm happy you are dealing with your porn addiction. I'm happy that you are getting your life back together. I think it is great that you want the best for your wife. Unfortunately....

You cannot control her. What she does is her choice. if she is now suffering an addiction, you both will need to deal with that before you can consider marital recovery.

Okay. There are steps you can take to expose the A and try to get your W to "wake up". Get her to agree to rehab if she will go. Call the good Dr. Harley. Spend a couple hundred dollars and get a plan together.

Since I'm not running for president, I will admit that in high school I had a one weekend bender with MJ - but I did NOT inhale! I haven't smoked it since although I can't think of a reason why not. No reason to start though either this late in life.

Telling your wife the truth may have been the start of a downward spiral but it was the only thing to do. She had a right to know. Since you say Ramadan was so important in your decision, are you both Muslim? I only ask because I am exposed to that and I can ask for some advice.

Drugs and adultery are pretty bad things in Islam.

This is part of the Wayward "script". Displacement of blame, and attacks on the BS are two of the primary tactics to keep a BS on the defensive. These are cruelly designed to keep the BS off balance, frightened and bewildered while the WS keeps on being wayward.

Additionally the WS provokes the BS to elicit Love Busting words and actions that help the WS justify the A. Everything she says is to keep you from interefering with her fantasy world. There is little a WS won't do to protect and justify their behavior.

Believe none of what she says and less than half of what you see. You can only influence her by changing you. Your words are worthless right now, and only you actions will make a difference.

Your actions will have to be done for such a length of time that the WS believes they might be permanent changes. Otherwise, she'll qualify you as a bait and switch con artist.

This is a program with some very acute requirements that must be bought in to 100%. You cannot half-a$$ the MB principals, not that you are. All this takes a command performance committment coupled with a lot of time.

Hunker down and prepare for the battle.

SD

Pio - I know this does sound a bit contradictory, what I meant was downloading & watching porn is has not been an issue for quite some time. That was a part of the addiction, which escalated to visiting the hooker 6 mnths later. Like I said in the previous post, certain triggers in feelings and emotions used to make me want to act out. IC has helped me identify those triggers and has given me the tools to deal with them without acting out.

When I said that I also did drugs, I meant with her.
I am aware that I cannot control her and that trying to do so, would only push her further away. My worry is not that I am unable to control her, it her well being, emotionally and physically.

This is my wife, the mother of my kids, the woman I love and it's not a pretty site watching her do this to herself.

She will not agree to anything I say at the moment, rehab being one of them.

Yes, we both are muslim.

SD - I was thinking the same thing too, about the displacement of blame and constant attacks towards me.
She does an excellent job of provoking me, and although most times I am calm, there have been times when it was too much and I reacted. I now just keep quiet and smile whenever she has one of her "moods", which are fairly regularly.
I plan to move back into the house today and she doesn't know about it. My therapist says that I should, as she is not expecting this, and she is more than happy to string me along while she continues on her "merry" way. Like this, I will be able to effectively work on Plan A'ing her and at the same time, be around my kids. I have the committment, time and love to fight for us. Let the battle begin...

Okay thinks for the answers.

At the end of the day, I still strongly advise you to set up an appointment with Dr. Harley and explain EVERYTHING to him. There are a lot of things here to fix before the M even shows up on the radar screen IMHO. First things first, in other words.

Still busting up the affair should be a priority. She needs to get her own demons addressed as well. I still have issues with you. Apparently it was okay for her to do drugs while she was with you. You may even be responsible for getting her hooked. But it is not okay for her to do drugs without you. If I can't understand this puzzle, I'm certain your W cannot understand it. Not trying to be too hard on you but just trying to get you to think.

H_O - You are definitely making me think.
I was smoking MJ from b4 I met her and although the chioce was ultimately hers, you could very well say that I had a major part to play in her smoking and even taking X as well. She hadn't even smoked a cigarette, let alone try any of the other stuff prior to meeting me.

I have not been trying to get her to stop smoking MJ, she must want to do that on her own. What is of more concern is the frequency and amount of the X she is taking. We used to take X almost as regularly when we were courting, but afterwe got married, it was more of a "special occasion" thing, if you can call it that. And the company she is choosing to keep and be in contact with are not the most desirable elements in the world. I know that she is a big girl and can handle herself, but it just worries me alot.

She did mention that she has an appointment with a therapist tomorrow, and I am happy for her. Perhaps that will help in her addressing her demons.

A development from yesterday, she somehow got wind of the fact that I planned to move back home and has taken an interdict out on me, preventing me from entering our home at all. She mentioned a lot of [email]cr@p[/email] in it and exagerated about a lot of things ande made it seem as though I was putting her and the kids in danger by being around them.
I love her, our kids, our family and would never do anything to harm them and she is making it seem as though I have been physically and emotionally abusive to all of them.
I don't know what to do anymore.

I don't know much about X. I saw on Discovery channel that some places are thinking about making it "not a drug" - however you do that. You are asking WW to give up many things. You are asking her to give up OM (which is a hormonal drug high), give up X (whatever it does but it must feel good) and give up MJ (okay you say she doesn't have to give that one up - sorry).

This is a lot of high to walk away from. What are you offering on your side of the equation? What I mean is, when she makes out her spreadsheet listing all the benefits of all the things that make her feel good in her life, what benefits is she going to list coming back to you?

She is a big girl. Whether she can take care of herself or not remains to be seen. The question is still out as to whether you are qualified or even should try. That is something I am mulling over myself - not a judgment against you. You are hardly in a position to criticize her for behavior that you started her doing to meet your own EN's.

I guess what I am thinking is that in a normal A situation, it is the wayward who has changed so dramatically. In this case, you are the one who has changed so much. Your WW seems to be about the same as before albeit with someone else. Okay you got religion. Good for you. Until your WW can accept that her behavior is essentially wrong (apart from the A), you have a big obstacle in your way.

All I can see you can do is get help for yourself, do try to bust up the A by standard guidelines easily available here on MB. Expose the heck out of her A. Do NOT under any circumstances try to ignore the restraining order because you absolutely need to keep the police out of this. You may want to contact a lawyer and see what rights you can gain as far as visitation for the kids.

You say she is associating with less than desirable elements. That is not unusual. I think you have hurt your WW pretty badly. It may even be driving her to self-destruction. I can't imagine how I would feel if my wife looked at Chippendales calendars and Playgirl magazine. That would certainly not help my self-esteem. You are the only person who was not hurt by your porn addiction. It was good for you but destroyed everyone else. Was the money you paid the hooker fair compensation for her loss in self-worth? I doubt it. So even though she was a willing partner, you have still hurt her.

I'm going to go ahead and say this even though I wasn't going to. Your post about controlling porn by avoiding triggers sent a chill up my spine. It made me wonder if you weren't a ticking time bomb. That's for you and your IC to decide.

I normally don't like to get things focused on religion but, in your case, I think you do need to try to bring your WW back into the fold - not necessarily the M just yet but at least back to practicing her faith. You two need to be on a common ground of what is basic acceptable behavior. Offer her a Hadj vacation? I dunno. I do know that both of you would be killed here, if caught, for your respective behaviors. I doubt SA Islam is much different than it is here. Maybe just the enforcement is different.

Did you know you can change the name of your thread? In your case, I would highly recommend it. The name you have right now doesn't say much. Pick something that gets attention. Don't take this wrong but, for example, "How can a reformed addict save his M with an addict wife?" Do you see what I mean? Maybe that is a bit too strong but I hope you can understand what I am getting at.

I know I hurt her, and badly is an understatement. Not only with the porn and the hooker, but also with not meeting many of her EN's during our marriage and numerous incidents of LB'ing during these last few months.

What I am offering to her is the the promise that I can and will be what I should have been throughout our marriage.
I have learnt so much in these months about myself, about women and especially how to go about building and maintaining a marriage in which the both of us, and our kids, will benefit from physically, emotionally and spiritually. The only problem is that it might be "too little, too late", as she likes to say.

What you say about the post regarding the controlling of porn and the triggers is something that I think she feels as well. She believes that I will do that type of thing or even visit hookers again.
Knowing what triggers off those reactions is not the only thing that came out of IC. It also dealt with understanding that the belief systems that I grew up with made me accept my behaviour as normal, and IC has helped in the changing of those belief systems and setting moral boundaries for myself, something that was lacking before.
But the most powerful and effective tool in preventing that type of behaviour in future is the knowledge of what hurt and anguish my destructive behaviour has caused our M, my W and our children. Being so close to losing the very things that mean everything to you makes a man committed to change.

I like the idea of the the thread name change, and might just use the one you suggested. After all, it's catchy, and it's the truth!