I am not really asking for advice but I just need someone to talk to right now. My mind is going 100MPH but please spare some thoughts on my post if you want to, especially if you have ever felt the way I do now.

Thanks.

Are there times when you just want out? When you think about all of the work it will take to repair your marriage do you ever feel like you would just rather not be a part of the mess any longer? I was fighting for my marriage in the wrong manner by having AO and DJ because I didn’t know any better. It was all because I was operating from a stance of fear. Fear of raising the children without a father, the fear of trying to manage financially, the fear of being alone. I was also dealing with rejection issues and low self esteem.

Since I have begun to examine my AO and DJ I have realized that they all come from fear of the things I mentioned above. I no longer have AO and DJ because I am no longer fearful or worrying about rejection because controlling my anger has allowed me to look at things objectively and as a result my self-esteem is climbing.

The thing is that all of these things have not occurred because of love feelings that I have for my husband but rather me wanting control over my life again. I felt so out of control over his behavior that doing Plan A has actually been a method to regain control of my life.

Now that I have re-gained some of my control my feelings seem to be changing. I have actually started to think of what my life would be like without him in it. No, I am definitely NOT thinking of another man at all. It’s just that I think of how peaceful and drama free life would be without having to all the time worry about what he is doing behind my back. I sometimes start to think of how I would manage with childcare and finances, household chores and what types of hobbies and social network I would need if I was no longer married. I also tend to think of coming home to no spouse after a day’s work and what would that be like.

I have started to feel resentful and I cannot seem to reign in these thoughts that he does not think I am good enough for him, that no matter what I am not enough. It makes me feel fatalistic about the marriage. I know that I am not perfect but I am learning to like me. Before I felt like the biggest piece of crap in the world, surely there must be something seriously wrong with me and if only I could just try a little harder things would get better.

I realize now that I am not any worse or any better than anyone else on the planet. I am flawed and I am working on my issues but I will never be perfect. I feel like he sees these OW as being perfect, they have their foggy conversations and the both of them are presenting only the best of themselves. There is no reality, no screaming kids, no past due bills, it is all perfect and drama free for them so of course it looks better than our relationship. I feel like I can’t compete with that because it’s all an illusion. I am sure that these women who tell my husband how lucky I am to have him would feel very differently after six months of living with him. Heck, doesn’t everyone think the new person is just perfect in the beginning?

It irks me so much that he is so unrealistic about what a real relationship is all about. That he is constantly seeking the fantasy. I am sure he feels that any woman would be lucky to have him because he presents himself as being this super husband to OW. He tells them about how much he does around the house and how good he is with the baby. When he buys me a gift he talks about it at work so to OW he looks like a great catch. When we have an argument he goes to work with puppy dog eyes and discusses our arguments, from his point of view of course so my side is never told, with OW. If he has a problem with me he asks for advice from them in order to gain insight on me, instead of talking to me. I am sure that to some OW out there I seem like a witch and he looks like a down-trodden husband who is just looking for a shoulder to cry on.

I feel like I cannot compete with that because no matter what I do I will NEVR be perfect and that is what he wants perfection. He wants a wife who will never be angry or sad or disappointed in him. He wants a wife who will trust him blindly even when her instincts and the evidence screams otherwise. He wants everything to always be light and romantic and fun, no distressing talk about bills, our future, or anything unpleasant because it’s just a downer. He wants a wife who will not disagree or stop him when he is leading the family toward financial ruin but who will jump in and make everything all right when money is tight with no complaints.

He wants a superwoman and I am NOT superwoman. I cannot do it all and be it all to him or anyone. I just want to live my life as I am; I like me I really do, flawed as I may be. I know that I need to change certain behaviors that are not appropriate but I will never be perfect.

What makes me sad and angry is that all of this might end for nothing. No matter who he runs to he will never find that perfect women so in the end if all of this falls down no one is going to be happy.

It will all be for nothing.

Almondeyes,

I hear you and in so many ways I feel the same way about my WW. She wants the fantasy relationships like she has read about in so many romance novels over the years. It seems to me she does not want to work for the relationship, that it should just happen.

As two imperfect people in this world, we will always have imperfect relationships. We vowed to love each other for better or worse. That is one of the reasons why I try to keep going. Why can't the WS do the same?

I think what you are feeling is natural and many other BSs have gone through this as well. I would love to hear from others who got through this.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me - Phil 4:13.

You can make it.

Aeyes--

I think what you're feeling is VERY normal. If you didn't ver feel like this, I'd say there was more wrong with you. : )

You see, there's a real war going on with you right now. You're torn in so many directions. And you're even confused about what war you're really fighting afterall--is it ti save my marriage? is it to protect myself from my WH? from myself?

And really, it's all of these battles.

You're smart to ask the questions you're asking, as we all know the reality of our stories can be non-marital reconciliation. MB wants to save marriages, but not at the BS's need to get his/her ducks in a row as well.

I am not sure of your full sitch, but when the BS begins to ask these questions and begins to lose love for a WS ACTIVE in an A, then maybe plan B is right for you. Like I said, not sure where you or your WH is at, so that might be TOTALLY bad advice. But if he's still an actice WH after all this time, then you might need to stop plan Aing and move up an alphabet letter.

And, you don't have to be Superwoman.

I'm big on songs-have you heard "Held" by Natalie Grant? Google it and listen to it (I HATE MYSPACE, but on the music part, you can listen to songs for free). You just have to be "held." It's beautiful, and I hope it will bless you some tonight and give you some encouragement.

Hugs from me.

Intexas

sorry, double posted

AE,

Having been (being?) in your position, my impression is that what you are suffering now is the self-esteem seesaw. Your self-esteem is totally shattered on Dday. With time, your self-esteem improves progressively but you reach a point where you start to feel good about yourself and WH pulls you back down. He may not be doing that intentionally or even actively (or he may). At times I had setbacks in self-esteem just reminding myself about the A.

For me, this period was(is) a period of intense internal struggle. I know I'm not crap (but maybe I really am - NO I'M NOT! - probably). I think this is something you have to work through before you decide to move on. I don't think leaving the M will resolve it. You need to decide who you really are and how much you are worth before you go off and try something else. Right now you are pretty sure you deserve something better but not totally convinced. Funny thing though, as you begin to believe you deserve something better, your WH may very well begin to believe that too - and step up to the plate.

Part of our battle is very real. Part is imaginary. Knowing the difference is the challenge.

Almondeyes,
I started going to therapy when my husband was showing more care for another woman than for me, although he had me convinced it wasn't an affair and he had stopped seeing her. The therapist recommended a book called "The Solo Spouse." In it, the author says that you have three choices when a spouse is doing something you don't like and won't stop:
1. Try to change him by AO and DJ
2. Lower your unmet expectations
3. Leave the relationship

I, too, spent a lot of time in AO in DJ, but now I have come to realize that he can change -- I can't change him. The other day, I said to him "I cannot stand living in a loveless relationship" and he said "Then get a divorce." As harsh as his response was, it was true. He was saying he wouldn't change. Do I lower my unmet expecations?

You have three choices. Examine each one thoroughly. The choice of AO and DJ comes from the false view that you can force him to change. You cannot. Once you face that reality, and it sounds like you are right now, you are left with two choices: lower your unmet expectations or leave the relationship.

You shouldn't have to compete. He married you. His orientation should be towards building a relationship with you, not enjoying intimacy with other women. I see lemonman is back on the board for a visit. What I learned from him is that there is a BS fog. The BS fog is that you are to blame (you aren't superwoman) and that something you do or are could change his treatment of you. Nope. He has to decide to make you his priority in life. You cannot make him. If he doesn't make you his priority, then you can accept a loveless marriage or leave.

Cherishing

I appreciate all of your answers and I wanted to respond to each post individually but I am not in a good place right now. It's like the bad fairy hit me over the head with her magic wand and now I am in a funk again. This sucks I really hate it but right now I can't concentrate enough to formulate a response to everyone's post.

My brain is stuck in a negative loop and I am being sorely tempted to bring up the books and questionairres again with the husband. I want to get it off of my chest with him and all I can think about is how to mention it in a way that is not LB but at the same time I feel like I need to be heard here.

I feel like I have struck a bum deal with him not keeping up his end of the deal. In December after our big blow-out he said that he would do anything to make things between the two of us better. I told him about the books and the material from this site. He asked me to print out the info and order the books. I did all of that and there is sits unread by him. I have kept up my end of the deal, I have been trying so hard to change and it's like he is happy now but totally unconcerned about anything else.

Am I asking for too much? Did he not agree wholeheartedly to do the MB plan? I am so dissatisfied and in so much distress that I cannot concentrate. I have so much school work to do and when I try to study I cannot focus this is having a real negative effect on me. I know that the MB principle is that I should suggest nicely and brainstorm with him but I have already done this and he just agreed with me and never followed through.


Last night he was flirting with me and acting so very happy and I was going along with it on the outside but I was fuming mad on the inside. I was quietly raging, guess he thinks the problem is all mine and now that I have fallen into line there is no problem so therefore no need for any action on his part.

He thinks that what he needs is what I need. So since I am filling his EN's then all is copacetic because we are "soul mates, two halves of one" and all of that romantic crap that he believes in. Naturally, since he believes this there is no need to know about what makes me tic or what I care about becuase to him what makes him tic is what makes me tic!

LB balance is in double digit negative numbers rigth now and headed for triple digits real soon.


I am so burnt.

I'm amazed at you. Been reading your great posts to others - usually when a newbie starts posting to others, that is the beginning of their healing.

You are doing very well, and your hubby is going to have to climb on the AlmondEyes train, or it will be leaving the station without him.

Hang in there, and keep making the wonderful changes you have been making. If he doesn't "get it" soon, it will be his loss.

AE,

Sounds like you have a serious lack of communication. You say he thinks what makes him happy makes you happy. Since you don't appear to be happy, I have to assume he is wrong. How can he know that if you won't correct him.

Your post was actually pretty good. You said "I feel" quite a few times. It's okay to talk to H about how you feel. That's not an LB. Blaming him for how you feel is the LB.

Start simple. Tell him "I feel sad" or "I feel confused". He can't read your mind. Tell him you feel depressed because he hasn't read the materials you gave him. That is not an LB - that's true communication. Now if he says he hasn't had time, don't argue. Just leave it at how you feel.

He may want to save the M but it can't be easy for a W to soul search. They would prefer it all just disappear. It may be that the MB materials are difficult for him. If so, he should tell you that. Ask him how he feels about reading it. That's not an LB either.

An LB is not so much the thing itself - it is how you present it.

Stonewalled again.

I brought up the MB issue again. I did exactly as suggested and started off by telling him that I am sad and well here is what happened.

This past weekend I brought it up again but now I am getting a little testy because I feel that I am being played with. I asked him nonchanlanty if he had finished his MB reading. He casually said no he hadn't and that it was irresponsible of him to not follow through. I told him that I feel a lot of emotional distress because I am unhappy with the state of our marriage right now and that only want things to get better. I told that I am sincerely sorry for mistakes that I have made on my part and that I know that I have not been the best wife to him but I am trying to change my ways and be a better person. He readily agreed with everything I had to say but then things got ugly. I told him that I hope that he can finish reading the MB material soon so that we can move on to step II because I feel like I am in crisis and that I cannot take much more of the unhappiness.

He got mad! He said that I agreed to work things out with him but I am not giving him a fair chance and that I am writing him off. Well how much time does it take to read or even browse through two easy to read books and fill out a form?



It's been 7 long months since I joined MB and have started to seriously try to work on the marriage. At first of course I didn't think that I would have to do all of the dirty work involved in fixing my marriage. I thought our problems were unique and that if I just said that I was unhappy he would naturally want to do whatever it took to fix the problem.

How very wrong I was.

I have been stonewalled by the husband for months now. It seems that no matter how I approach him about our marital problems he refuses to deal with them. We keep having all of these “deep conversations” about wanting to have a better marriage. He agrees to read the MB material and fill out the EN questionnaires but as soon as I let it drop he does not hold up his end of the bargain.

7 long months ago is when I began to try to engage him in conversations about the state of our marriage. We have made no progress for many, many months. I grew angrier with every passing day when I saw that no matter what I said or did he only seemed to care at that moment when I was verbalizing my feelings but as soon as I calmed down and dropped the subject he would immediately forget and revert back to his usual behavior. Things came to a boiling point right around Christmas and I realized that I had to follow the MB plan or this marriage was going down the drain. So I told him about the MB site, he knows I post here frequently, and asked him to read HN HN and LB and fill out the EN’s questionnaire.

Well he readily agreed and said he would do anything to make this marriage work. More time passed, I read those two books in 2 days flat and was rearing to go…him? Huh, forget about it…it’s been like having my teeth pulled with a pair of rusty pliers. Since the beginning of January he has not managed to make it through any of the material and is no where close to finishing. I don’t bring it up very often because I know how mulish he can be and harassing him about it will simply make him do the opposite of what I want. Instead every week I have inquired if he has finished reading the books and is ready to fill out the EN’s quiz and every time I ask the answer is no. No he has not finished but he has good intentions of finishing it’s just that he has been so busy but he will surely get back to me really soon.

Gee, thanks a lot that makes me feel wonderful.

Trust me if it was a priority he would do it and he does have free time because when he is not working he spends 75% of his time plopped on the couch watching TV, surfing the net or playing games. IMHO he just does not want to do it and it drives me crazy that he will not admit that he doesn’t. I tell him (nicely) that if he is not interested in MB or if he thinks the marriage is fine as is then to let me know because I do not want to force him to do anything that he doesn’t want to do. He always tells me that he wants nothing more than to make it all work out and he wants the both of us to be happy. He will apologize profusely and say that it was irresponsible of him to not follow up and finish what he started. Nice words, but what happens next proves that he is simply pacifying me. As soon as I calm down he goes back to the status quo and does not pursue the problem any further. I have seen this man literally move mountains to do the things that he WANTS to do so it's obvious to me that this is something that he DOES not want to do. However, I have a better chance of hitting the Mega-millions than I do of getting him to admit to that fact.

He does his very best to be as difficult and obstinate as possible in every situation. If I tell him that I have a need for him to be open and honest with me because that is what makes me feel secure he will sympathize and agree that in the past he has been less than honest but today is a new day! Then he will ask me what is concerning me, what would I like to know? I tell him I want to know why this or that happened. He hems and haws, changes the subject numerous times and literally after a good hour of conversation to answer a question that could take 30 seconds to answer I grow disgusted and tell him to forget it. Once I am like forget it he becomes irate and tells me that I am being unfair and unkind, that he never knows what it will take to make me happy and that I am never satisfied. We go back and forth some more over the new issue of my inability to be pleased and eventually after being emotionally drained by him he will finally answer the question after I once again re-state what it was that I wanted to know about hours ago.

He is the most difficult person I have ever tried to communicate with and as a result I find myself reluctant to speak to him at all. Sometimes the phone rings when he is at work and his # pops up on the caller ID and I just don’t answer it. I am starting to dread having him come home because he wants to talk and be friendly all of the time but he only wants to talk about superficial topics, like a TV show he watched or the weather or work gossip. I don’t mind talking about these things and I do try to be pleasant because I know that after a hard days’ work no one wants to have a load of emotional bricks dropped on them. However, it’s NEVER EVER a good time to talk as far as he is concerned. He just does not want to deal with anything unpleasant ever as long as I am on the other end of the conversation. However, he is more than happy to share all of our business with other people.

Had a lovely email conversation with a female co-worker from his job who informed me of how much my husband loves me and that all he does is talk about me and our baby all day long. Said that he told her that he was worried that I would think he was cheating on me with her so that is why he took her off of his buddy list and would not accept her Myspace invite. Nice, really nice, I get to hear about my marriage from a third party. When I asked him about this issue repeatedly he would never tell me squat so I went straight to the source.

I am so sick of it all.

In December I started looking at divorce information and he went through my search history and found out. When he confronted me about it I confessed that yes I have been finding out info about divorce. He claimed to be so hurt and swore that he was going to take the MB stuff very seriously because he so wanted to fix things because the last thing he wants is a divorce. Sure, whatever, maybe I am impatient because it was only 6 weeks ago but how much patience should I have when 7 months have passed and things are virtually the same as they were way back in July?

I am so tired of him why doesn’t he get it?

plan B
plan B
plan B...

You have sowed all the seeds
you have paved the road to what he needs to do..
(a simple start is read the books (DAMMITTTT!!!!!!!!!!!)

and now you are getting angry...

time for plan B when you still have love units left for him...

time for protection mode.....so that you don't lose them all.....

you can not force
you can not make

time to scream your independance.....

till you do right by me...
I am outta here...

ARK

AE,
I had a very similar situation with stonewalling WW. The reason she was not invested in working on our marriage is that she was invested in an affair. I would suggest a couple of courses of action that you can pursue concurrently:
1)Snoop - yes your H will be mad when he finds out but it does not sound like he is volunteering to be honest with you, he is manipulating you to "keep you in line" as you put it. He doesn't want the boat rocked by having to focus on two relationships.
2)Decide on a time limit for your plan A. You have been at it for 7 months as you say, how much more can you take? During the interim that is left for your plan A, prepare for plan B. Do not discuss the timeline with H, just execute the plan. It sounds like he is having some EN met by you and some by someone else. Moving to Plan B protects whatever you have left for him and will send him a wakeup call. Be careful though, as you work on yourself through plan A and prepare for your independence, then actually become independent from H's behavior, you just may start to feel good about your life. You may prefer a life where you set your own direction and do not live by reacting to the responses of your H. This was the case for me, I consider that I was an addict of the positive feedback from WW and i did not recover my own self until I broke that addiction. I still have to work on it every day, but I feel that i can manage it now.

I agree it's time for Plan B. I don't know how I will execute it because I am a full-time student and won't be finished until December but even if I have to rely on spousal support and public assistance I can no longer live like this.

I am going asbolutely nuts because of this situation. I cannot concentrate on my schoolwork and the entire focus of my life has become this one-sided marriage. His unwillingness to make his word good is abuse plain and simple...it's abuse and selfishness on his part.

I know I should probably ride it out until December 07 but I just can't take it anymore. I need some time to get my house in order but I can't deal with him.

Almond,

Pain.

It is basic.

It is what your husband knows. It is what he understands.

Plan B = Pain

He will change when the pain of staying the same is worse than the pain of changing.

You appear to be an excellent communicator. He feels that there is no unknown with you because you CAN communicate so well.

Plan B = Silence

You can't get much louder than silence.

Personally, I don't see your situation as requiring Plan B, but I do think it could do well with marriage counseling focusing on communication issues.

My husband was, at 7 months, very very similar to all the things you describe about your husband.

He did not want to read Infidelity books. So I read them to him, and we would discuss some of the things we read. I had highlighted most of the stuff I wanted to share with him when I read it.

I made a binder of the printable Harley Concept webpages on the main site in the order that Dr. Harley presents, and then I put them into a tabbed binder.

I read them to him. We discussed reactions to them. We referred back to them during difficult discussion or disagreements. (love busting, angry outbursts, etc)

I did not give him an "assignment" to do the ENs questionnaire. I never would have gotten it that way. My husband is how he is. I had to modify my approach to work WITH him in the way he could With me.

Instead I read him the ENs questionnaire and discussed the answers with him, asking clarifying questions, and giving examples of behaviors I had seen being extremely sensitive to his position, ideas and thoughts, and opinions.

I tried to make it fun and low key. I didn't try to force anything on him, but I made it my boundary that I was going to use the Harley Concepts. My husband eventually became a very big fan of the Harley Concepts, because I modified my own behavior to reflect them, and showed him that's what I was doing in contrast to my old non-constructive behaviors.

Some men are not wired to want to deal with relationship issues, they find them extremely scarey.

As far as the co-worker, I personally am happy when my husband makes it known he is happily married, it certainly gets the message across and makes it known that he is not a good target for any inappropriate relationships.

I believe your husband is reacting to your pressure. He can tell you're frustrated and it ups the ante and makes him even more fearful of heavy emotional conversation.

Please also remember that any infidelity is created, not out of heavy relationship talk, but out of easy banter. Banter and easy conversation is a L$B deposit for him. Heavy relationship talk is a LoveBuster for him. You are exactly the opposite.

Your best bet would be to find a way for both of you to get what you want. You do have times when he will talk with you about the relationship, you said so yourself, when you ask him if he wants to work on the marriage he does say yes he does. To him that equals relationship talk. So instead of wasting those opportunities discussing what you could be doing and what you expect of him, why not just get the EN questionnaire and say, let's take 15 minutes to work on the "EN Questionnaire right now toghether"?

Have you read Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue? In it Dr. Phil explains very clearly this fear of Relationship Talk that men have, and how they feel trapped inside it. Dr. Phil suggests using a timer with about a 15minute time limit on Relationship Talk. So you take 15minutes twice a week to read to him some passages you have highlighted and discuss those with him.

Then keep that tabbed binder out and handy for any disagreements that come along at other times: One of you raises your voice, turn to the section on angry outbursts and read it, and discuss how you no longer want to engage in AOs in your "improving marriage".

This way he can be part of the solution and so can you, because you'll be taking his needs into account.

This was my approach and today I have the happy marriage I have always wished for.

OK 10swords..that was really good advice...:)

ARK

10 Swords, your words have given me pause but I cannot address them right now since I am already late for class. I am going to go to school and when I come home tonight I will read and re-read them and then think about what you wrote.

10 Swords and Almond Eyes..

I highly, highly, highly recommend the book LOVE AND RESPECT...you are speaking about (10 Swords) and dealing with (Almond) the issues that this author discusses soooo well. This book was a real eye-opener for me and changed my life. I thought about it, too, because I READ SECTIONS to my H..like you suggested 10 SWORDS and he REALLY, REALLY AGREED with this VIEWPOINT....

I like the "tabbed binder" approach. I think I might just use that :-).

I see echoes of my FWW in AlmondEye's description of her H. Trying to "force" someone like that to do something that works for you but they're not inclined to do probably isn't going to work out very well. I've got the emotional cuts and bruises and black eyes to prove it.

Thanks, Doll, I found it, and will get it. It never hurts to keep what we've learned and are learning front and center. I want to keep my husband happy and enflamed with desire for me for the rest of our lives.

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Respect-Desires-Desperately-Needs/dp/1591451876