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Aeyes ~

Wow, my good friend 10S directed me to your post, since I am going through the EXACT SAME THING as you right now. The only real difference is that we've now been at this for 9 months...But other than that, I could have written your post WORD-FOR-WORD. No kidding.

So just recently I've decided that I've had it; I mean, I'm just so done. Long story short is, I gave my FWH a "deadline" of March 2nd to let me know how committed he is to finally putting as much effort into this recovery process as I have for the past 9 months. That's all I'm asking for at this point, although he does have a general idea of what that's going to entail (I warned him that it's going to mean both IC and MC for both us, that he's going to have to do SOME reading about the MB concepts, etc.).

Afterall, what's the point of me putting in 150% and him only putting in 50%? What's the point of me trying to find better strategies to dealing with our issues (POJA, Independant Behavior stuff, RC, 15 hours of UA), if he isn't going to do the same? I can't and won't carry this marriage by myself anymore. And I will not stay if I don't see some changes. I've already started making many changes (like you), and I sure am enjoying myself better these days!

Read my link here on Boundaries, especially my last few posts.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3179160

So for now I've stopped everything. No R, M or A talk. None. I'm not organizing our 15 hours UA, or trying to plan RC or anything else for us. I've done it long enough. I need him to join me on this marriage-rebuilding journey for me to continue.

To tell you the truth, I don't know how serious he's taking me. It seems like I've said all of this to him before. The difference was that I never gave him a deadline, I always believed him when he said he was going to make some changes. He may have to find out the hard way this time; I AM NOT MESSING AROUND. And if Mar. 2nd comes, and he agrees, and he has not agreed to and started working on some sort of a "plan" within a week, we will separate. I've already prepared myself for that possibility. I'm fine with it. I've been spinning my wheels for long enough.

I'm done wasting time.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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10swords, I have been thinking about your post all day long.

My problem is that his effort means a lot to me. His willingness to prove to me (after so many broken promises) that he can keep a promise and prove that this marriage is his #1 priority means a lot to me.

I know it should be easy for me to give in and just read the material to him but I am tired of always giving in.

I know this may sound childish but I feel like all I get is scraps. Scraps of affection and insight into his thoughts and feelings, scraps of communication, scraps of the truth, and like a dog I have to beg at his table for the little bits I get. Like a dog I have to roll over, sit, play dead, beg....good girl AE here's your treat!

I am sick of it, it's demeaning.

This is truly how I feel. I feel like I have to beg for everything.

MF, I read some of your posts and yep, your marriage is a mirror image of mine right about now.

I have been trying to re-direct my thoughts towards working on the marriage and implementing 10's ideas but my brain has another agenda.

All day long it has had the same willfull thoughts:

I can't stand this, I cannot take it anymore...I'm losing my mind and he is driving me insane. I have got to get away from this situation.

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I guess I wanted to send the message to my husband that I love him enough to not give up on him.

But, I have never been a doormat in our relationship. When I told him after D-Day that if he didn't want me or love me enough, then I would leave and never look back, (and no, we couldn't be friends, I love him too much to put myself through that kind of pain), he took me seriously.

I had left him once before and proved I didn't need his money or support to be ok, though.

I totally understand that you do have a responsibility to yourself to enforce your own boundaries, "I won't stay in a marriage where I do all the heavy lifting", than I do not disagree with Plan B.

[color:"#39395A"] Plan Be = Boundary enforcement [/color]
on so many levels.

In your shoes, though I'm just not sure I'd be ready to throw in the towel. There are some "workable positives".

My husband didn't change overnight. He struggled with changes. I see what your husband sees when he feels like you aren't recognizing the changes he has made.

Of course that's not enough, but there certainly is improvement.

  • he has forsaken the active affair
  • he has voiced commitment to the marriage
  • he takes pride in his marriage to you
  • he expresses love for you



I know it's hard to be grateful for these things when you're TAKER is screaming that someone has to pay for your hurt, that it's all about ME now (btdt, wore the t-shirt).

And he's thinking, "I'm back in the marriage, I'm here!", (and he believes it), as well as "I'm being the breadwinner" (big deal for men), and especially men often feel entitled to relax when they're hard workers. Men think that when they come home they're off duty. After all they just won the bread! In fact it's a healthy manifestation of "being a man" in our modern society. And his taker says, "I'm not appreciated for my contributions." And his need for admiration is very hurt in a very real way.

Resist the urge to compare hurts. It's always a no-win situation.

Can you acknowledge that he has been hurt by the affair?

When you love someone, their hurting results in your compassion. When you show him compassion and acknowledge his pain, it should help him to be compassionate and acknowledge your pain, as well.

If he doesn't acknowledge your pain, guess what that tells me? His TAKER is still telling him that his pain was the reason he sought comfort in an affair.

I believe from my research into in-real-life people who've had affairs both known and unknown to their spouses, that it takes about two years to fully recognize that if you have an affair you were the problem, you were not driven to it by your spouse.

Some do recognize that truth in the beginning, but it has only taken root, in the people I've spoken with. Then two years later it has fully matured and they begin making deep investments in their partners again. (This is even when the affair remains a secret from the spouse.)

I believe this is why, early in recovery, the fws cannot figure out that they need to invest in recovery, the way the bs does. The BS has never hypnotized themselves into believing their own justifications for an affair so in that way they still hold the key to recovery.

IMO It's because of this reason that the better you Plan A, let's call Plan A, "Plan Attitude-Adjustment" prior to Plan Be, the more effective your Plan Be will be.

Because Plan A, is about acting from a place of LOVING KINDNESS toward yourself and everyone else.

It's not about using manipulation, or acquiescing to bad choices as a bargaining chip, you do this OR I'll be angry, I'll let you "get away with" that, BUT I will make you pay with my resentment.

That just does not work. It's how you got here in the first place, right?

Does that make any sense?


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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I married him all over again, May 07
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Quote
I know it should be easy for me to give in and just read the material to him but I am tired of always giving in.


So how is two wrongs going to equal a right?
That sounds like TAKER talk.
Instead of seeing it as a loss "always giving in", I see it as nobly acting the Hero. Someone has to be the hero. Why not you? Anyway, You're already wearing the Wonder Woman suit. You didn't have an affair, you stayed in the marriage after D-Day.

In the early days of recovery I did a lot of things wrong, some lovebusting, AOs, and a few DJs here and there, but my Post D-Day Plan A remained mighty and strong. I kept telling him I knew he could do this. I believed in him. Words have power.

Quote
I know this may sound childish but I feel like all I get is scraps. Scraps of affection and insight into his thoughts and feelings, scraps of communication, scraps of the truth, and like a dog I have to beg at his table for the little bits I get. Like a dog I have to roll over, sit, play dead, beg....good girl AE here's your treat!

I am sick of it, it's demeaning.

When was the last time you read LilSis's thread?


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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I married him all over again, May 07
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I agree that two wrongs do not make a right and it is my taker that is rearing its ugly head once again. I wish I had the faith in my husband that you have in yours.

It's like the more I try to make myself feel a certain way the more my emotions scream at me that it isn't true or right. I feel like I am lying to myself by believing the he will ever change.

He has always been passive aggressive and a CA. So really it's not as if he was ever a normal spouse and just got caught up in a temporary affair fog. He has always been the way he is. It's just that the OW thing is a sore spot for me whereas I was blind to other problem areas such as not getting my EN's meet.

There have been other times that I have felt less than satisfied and even times when I felt a great deal of unhappiness. It's just that I have always sucked it up when he refused to change or attempt to fill my EN’s. My approach was always to ask him for certain things, first nicely, and then as I saw that I wasn’t getting what I wanted I would grow angry and demand and of course when that didn’t work I would just withdraw. I would just accept the loss of having my EN's meet. I just accepted that he would never make any attempt to make me happy and I focused on other things and I kept telling myself that I loved him anyway.

Now looking back I realize that the only reason we got married was because I left him at one point. When I left, we would talk to each other on the phone and he began to fill my EN’s and I fell back in love with him. We began dating again and we married during that period. However, once married he fell back into his old ways of being emotionally neglectful.

I didn’t understand the MB principle of the love bank and I figured we were married and I would just have to accept what was.

I began to love him less and less as time went by. Once the LB got to 0 I just fell out of love with him and began to neglect his EN’s. It's a common story so I know you know what happens next. The difference between me and him is that even though my EN's have been un-filled I have just dealt with it and resigned myself to unhappiness. He on the other hand turned to outside comfort because he expects to be kept happy.

So it really isn’t him that has changed it is me. Now maybe it isn't fair of me to change on him. However I cannot go back to the way I was before and accept an un-healthy, imbalanced, one-sided relationship.

I wish I could relish the role of playing the hero but it feels like the role of the chump to me at this point because I have always been in this role.

The only way I can describe it is to think of it this way. If there was a fire I would gladly run into a burning building to save someone's life. However, if that person willfully kept trying to run back into the flames how many times would I be willing to keep risking my life to go and get them out?

This is him! He is not a serial cheater but he is a serial problem creator! He cannot manage to live his life w/o numerous pitfalls and drama. At least twice a year I have to save him from himself or a bind that he gets himself into. These problems usually stem from his passive aggressive-CA ways. When you are PA and a CA you likely have problems in all aspects of your life, not just your marriage. He isn't just PA and CA with me....it's with just about everyone. When stuff falls down he always turns to me and I fix it right up for him.

I just don't want to do it anymore. I even can predict when these things will occur but does that give me any power to stop him? Nope!

I wrote about this in another one of my threads. I predicted right before X-mas that we would be in a financial bind come early '07 because he went crazy with his spending. There I was like Henny Penny...stop spending...we will be sorry next month and on and on.

He ignored me and did the PA thing which meant, spend even MORE money. Well, here comes January and bills were incredibly tight. So in typical husband fashion he tells me that he is concerned about the bills because this one or that one has not been paid. In the past I would have done 1 of 2 things: I would have just fixed the problem or 2. I would have had an AO about the fact that I had already TOLD him this would have happened last month and then I would have fixed the problem.

Instead I have done neither. I chose option three: I said, I wish there was something that I could do about it but I can't help you fix this problem.

I just refuse to fix his problems any longer.

I did print out most of the MB stuff for him. I emailed it to him (at his request) and then he printed it out. When I say that he has read some of the MB stuff, I mean the printed out information from the website. Not the books, those he hasn't touched at all. Though he said he did but when I asked him what did he read from the book specifically he had to admit that it was only the inside jacket.

Totaly typical for him to try to lie even about that. Guess he thought better of lying when he realized that I actually read the books and panicked because he knew he couldn't answer any questions if I aksed him about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyhow, I think that reading him the MB stuff will just make me his enabler. I really, truly feel deep resentment toward him and if I have to sit him down and read to him then there is no point because I will only become even MORE resentful.

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10Swords.

I didn't see this and I appreciate your input so please bear with me. I am going to respond to this post a little later on tonight.

Quote
I guess I wanted to send the message to my husband that I love him enough to not give up on him.

But, I have never been a doormat in our relationship. When I told him after D-Day that if he didn't want me or love me enough, then I would leave and never look back, (and no, we couldn't be friends, I love him too much to put myself through that kind of pain), he took me seriously.

I had left him once before and proved I didn't need his money or support to be ok, though.

I totally understand that you do have a responsibility to yourself to enforce your own boundaries, "I won't stay in a marriage where I do all the heavy lifting", than I do not disagree with Plan B.

[color:"#39395A"] Plan Be = Boundary enforcement [/color]
on so many levels.

In your shoes, though I'm just not sure I'd be ready to throw in the towel. There are some "workable positives".

My husband didn't change overnight. He struggled with changes. I see what your husband sees when he feels like you aren't recognizing the changes he has made.

Of course that's not enough, but there certainly is improvement.

  • he has forsaken the active affair
  • he has voiced commitment to the marriage
  • he takes pride in his marriage to you
  • he expresses love for you



I know it's hard to be grateful for these things when you're TAKER is screaming that someone has to pay for your hurt, that it's all about ME now (btdt, wore the t-shirt).

And he's thinking, "I'm back in the marriage, I'm here!", (and he believes it), as well as "I'm being the breadwinner" (big deal for men), and especially men often feel entitled to relax when they're hard workers. Men think that when they come home they're off duty. After all they just won the bread! In fact it's a healthy manifestation of "being a man" in our modern society. And his taker says, "I'm not appreciated for my contributions." And his need for admiration is very hurt in a very real way.

Resist the urge to compare hurts. It's always a no-win situation.

Can you acknowledge that he has been hurt by the affair?

When you love someone, their hurting results in your compassion. When you show him compassion and acknowledge his pain, it should help him to be compassionate and acknowledge your pain, as well.

If he doesn't acknowledge your pain, guess what that tells me? His TAKER is still telling him that his pain was the reason he sought comfort in an affair.

I believe from my research into in-real-life people who've had affairs both known and unknown to their spouses, that it takes about two years to fully recognize that if you have an affair you were the problem, you were not driven to it by your spouse.

Some do recognize that truth in the beginning, but it has only taken root, in the people I've spoken with. Then two years later it has fully matured and they begin making deep investments in their partners again. (This is even when the affair remains a secret from the spouse.)

I believe this is why, early in recovery, the fws cannot figure out that they need to invest in recovery, the way the bs does. The BS has never hypnotized themselves into believing their own justifications for an affair so in that way they still hold the key to recovery.

IMO It's because of this reason that the better you Plan A, let's call Plan A, "Plan Attitude-Adjustment" prior to Plan Be, the more effective your Plan Be will be.

Because Plan A, is about acting from a place of LOVING KINDNESS toward yourself and everyone else.

It's not about using manipulation, or acquiescing to bad choices as a bargaining chip, you do this OR I'll be angry, I'll let you "get away with" that, BUT I will make you pay with my resentment.

That just does not work. It's how you got here in the first place, right?

Does that make any sense?

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I just wanted to tell you that my husband is also a passive aggressive and conflict avoider. But by going to counseling with me he was able to work on these and really has changed. I guess I should consider myself very lucky.

My husband is very smart about money, is a very hard worker, and has made a success of himself in his field. Maybe that is what he used to be able to make drastic changes in himself.

I posted on the Passive Agressive thread in the recovery forum, sometime I believe early last summer, maybe a month or two into that thread. Reading that thread helped me tremendously, it helped me figure out how to best change my behavior in order to deal with his PA tendencies.

However, about 2 years before his affair, I had dealt with many of my own resentment issues, and forgiven him for many of the bad times in our marriage. That wasn't enough to stop the affair from occuring but it gave me a different starting place after D-Day.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

Very Happily Married
Me FBS - 44
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I married him all over again, May 07
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Quote
I guess I wanted to send the message to my husband that I love him enough to not give up on him.



But, I have never been a doormat in our relationship. When I told him after D-Day that if he didn't want me or love me enough, then I would leave and never look back, (and no, we couldn't be friends, I love him too much to put myself through that kind of pain), he took me seriously.




I never thought of myself as a Doormat before and I hate to think of myself as being one but I must face the truth and admit that I have been one. I have consistently allowed my boundaries to be eroded. Everytime that I have asked for something and allowed him to get away with not giving it to me or even compromising with me...I have acted as a doormat.




I had left him once before and proved I didn't need his money or support to be ok, though.

I totally understand that you do have a responsibility to yourself to enforce your own boundaries, "I won't stay in a marriage where I do all the heavy lifting", than I do not disagree with Plan B.




This is my main boundary at this point. I simply refuse to be with him any longer if he will not be an active participant in working at the marriage. For me this means taking initiative in resolving the marital issues. I will no longer do the "heavy lifting" all on my own.



Now that may be my taker screaming again but I flat out don't want to do it. No matter how childish or petty my actions may seem to others the thought of sitting down with him and reading to him repulses me. We already have a problem with me trying to "teach him" anything because of my past actions. For example when I tried to explain to him what an EA was he totally poo-pooed me. He basically said that I was full of sh*t, got mad and accused me of trying to lecture and scold him like a child.


I can honestly say that I know in the past I might have been preachy but when I was trying to explain what an EA was I wasn't accusing him of having one. I was simply explaining what it was and trying to explain to him some of the things that married people should do to avoid having one.



He is not interested in being taught by me and may perceive me reading MB material to him out loud and trying to engage him a discussion as me trying to lecture and scold him because "I know better than he does."




[color:"#39395A"] Plan Be = Boundary enforcement [/color]
on so many levels.

In your shoes, though I'm just not sure I'd be ready to throw in the towel. There are some "workable positives".



My husband didn't change overnight. He struggled with changes. I see what your husband sees when he feels like you aren't recognizing the changes he has made.

Of course that's not enough, but there certainly is improvement.



I actually have been making huge efforts to acknowledge all of the good he is doing in the marriage. I complain to everyone on MB but I am keeping up Plan A. I am beginning to dislike doing it more and more but I am still doing it. Some days it feels as if I am only going through the motions and I would like nothing more than to stop but I know that I can't until I have a concrete course of action.

  • he has forsaken the active affair
  • he has voiced commitment to the marriage
  • he takes pride in his marriage to you
  • he expresses love for you




I have been repeatedly giving him positive affirmations about the above things. I make sure to tell him that his efforts at supporting the family financially are greatly appreciated. I tell him that I know things aren't perfect but that I am glad that we are going to work everything out (even though I have my doubts). I make sure to say positive affirmations to him every single day even though I do not feel loving toward him at all. I read somewhere about faking it until you make it and I am trying that course of action hoping that my feelings will fall into place but I don't feel it happening.



I know it's hard to be grateful for these things when you're TAKER is screaming that someone has to pay for your hurt, that it's all about ME now (btdt, wore the t-shirt).

And he's thinking, "I'm back in the marriage, I'm here!", (and he believes it), as well as "I'm being the breadwinner" (big deal for men), and especially men often feel entitled to relax when they're hard workers. Men think that when they come home they're off duty. After all they just won the bread! In fact it's a healthy manifestation of "being a man" in our modern society. And his taker says, "I'm not appreciated for my contributions." And his need for admiration is very hurt in a very real way.

Resist the urge to compare hurts. It's always a no-win situation.

Can you acknowledge that he has been hurt by the affair?



I think that he deeply regrets the affairs for all of the aftermath that he has had to deal with. However, I don't think he regrets what he has done because he feels any empathy for me. Does that make sense? It's like he is sorry cuz it's causing him nothing but headache after headache because now I want to have the dreaded relationship discussions and work on the marriage and he doesn't want to do that. His affairs have caused me to push him out of his comfort zone and he doesn't like that so he is sorry. So he wants to rush through the recovery process so he can go back to the status quo. However, he seems to have no inkling of how much PAIN I am in. He doesn't understand my pain or hurt feelings at all. He thinks they are all highly exaggerated and that I need to work on being forgiving and learn how to forget and that is the main source of my anger.



His acknowledgement goes no further then he has done something bad and that he will not do it again because it creates trouble and that is bad. For him that is all there is to it. When I try to express to him how much I have been hurt and continue to hurt from his actions he expresses anger towards me because in his mind if I am still feeling pain then it's because I am an unbending, unforgiving person who insists on living in the past. He loves to point out how he always manages to forgive me for things that I have done wrong. When I ask to be specific about anything that I have done he tells me that he has no examples to offer up because unlike me he has forgiven and forgetten and suggests that I learn to do the same.




When you love someone, their hurting results in your compassion. When you show him compassion and acknowledge his pain, it should help him to be compassionate and acknowledge your pain, as well.

If he doesn't acknowledge your pain, guess what that tells me? His TAKER is still telling him that his pain was the reason he sought comfort in an affair.



I can agree that this is true. I just don't know what I have specifically done to him to hurt him. When I try to find out will not tell me. When I ask him what is that I do to LB him he tells me that I am a great wife to him. During our last conversation I told him that couldn't be true or he would not act the way he does. He then said that he (unlike me) overlooks the things that I do that bug him for the sake of the relationship. I told him that I did not want him to do this because if something that I did or have done in the past bothers him then it's important to me that I know so that I can try to work on it because I want him to be happy. Still, I got nothing. Now I don't think that means that he thinks I am the perfect wife. It's really that he does not trust me or beleive in me enough to tell me what will really make him happy. He is doing his CA thing. So he expects me to read his mind and automatically know what makes him happy but if I don't know then he reverts to his PA tactics and punishes me for leaving his EN's unmeet. It seems like I am in a no win situation that is destined for failure.



I believe from my research into in-real-life people who've had affairs both known and unknown to their spouses, that it takes about two years to fully recognize that if you have an affair you were the problem, you were not driven to it by your spouse.

Some do recognize that truth in the beginning, but it has only taken root, in the people I've spoken with. Then two years later it has fully matured and they begin making deep investments in their partners again. (This is even when the affair remains a secret from the spouse.)

I believe this is why, early in recovery, the fws cannot figure out that they need to invest in recovery, the way the bs does. The BS has never hypnotized themselves into believing their own justifications for an affair so in that way they still hold the key to recovery.

IMO It's because of this reason that the better you Plan A, let's call Plan A, "Plan Attitude-Adjustment" prior to Plan Be, the more effective your Plan Be will be.

Because Plan A, is about acting from a place of LOVING KINDNESS toward yourself and everyone else.

It's not about using manipulation, or acquiescing to bad choices as a bargaining chip, you do this OR I'll be angry, I'll let you "get away with" that, BUT I will make you pay with my resentment.

That just does not work. It's how you got here in the first place, right?

Does that make any sense?



Yep a lot of what you have said makes perfect sense. I just don't know how to continue to proceed with resolving my marital problems when it seems that I am being stonewalled on every front.


I am actively in Plan A but the only effect Plan A seems to be having is that his happiness is increasing and no attempt to fill my EN's are being made. I want to get away from the pain of not having my EN's met but divorce is so terrible and drastic but I just don't know which way to go from here.

What do I have to do to get through to this man?

Insight from you (10swords) or anyone who can help would be very much welcomed!

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Pride goeth before the fall right ladies and gents?

So I have been in the thinking "woman" pose all of this weekend. I admit that I am willfull and full of pride but I am only human. We are married and we have children so I have got to try until I get concrete 100% proof that he is beyond redemption. So I wrote him a letter. Please tell me what you all think. I am not going to send it to him right away because I don't want him to feel bombarded when he comes home tomorrow. So I want to start working on it and then in a week or so I will give it to him.

I know I likely seem thick headed and determined to divorce my husband but I am trying and everyone's input is helping me immensely.

Thanks.

Today is 2/11/07 and I have just hung up the phone with you. This is your last day in PR and you are going to the beach with your cousin today. I know this has been a bad trip for you and I hope that you get to enjoy the one “touristy” thing you will do before returning to the cold weather. I don’t know if you were able to hear the sadness and frustration in my voice during our conversations while you were in PR but I have been trying to mask my pain. I know that this is a hard time for you and I do not want to add to your stress by talking relationship issues right now.

However, not a day has gone by since July ’06 that I have not felt sad and depressed over the state of affairs in this marriage. I feel like I have tried to reach out to you so many times only to be stonewalled time and time again. I feel like I have really tried to communicate to you that we have problems that could be resolved if we were willing to work together to make things better. I don’t know the reasons why you always put me off but the fact is that you do. I am sure you have the best intentions but the end results are the same as if you had the worst ones.

7 long months since July and still no change or resolution to the issues that were a problem in this marriage. Now I will admit that it is I who has verbalized a problem with the way things are and not you. You seem happy with the way the marriage is going so I cannot fault you for that. What I can say is that it has damaged me to feel that since I am the one who is hurting and you are not that you feel it isn’t a problem.

At first I was enthusiastic; I felt that if I only expressed to you how I felt that you would do anything in your power to make changes. At first I believed you when you would make promises and it gave me the hope and energy to keep on trying. Initially I was confused when it appeared that you were saying one thing but doing another. My mind is giving me all sorts of reasons why but I am making the choice to believe that I haven't been expressing myself clearly enough and I will try to tell you how I feel.

I feel that I am going through many changes to try to get you to really listen to me but that it hasn't worked. I know that you have heard my words but I feel like they have not touched you. Can't you feel any of my pain? At first I did some things that were wrong, I got angry and lost my temper, I insulted you when I got mad. For that I was wrong and I do sincerely apologize. Eventually I tried to work it out by buying books and trying to open the lines of communication between us but that has not work either.

You would never tell me why, but you seem to not be be interested in reading the books or trying to talk about our relationship. When I would ask you if you have done what you agreed to do, read the books and try the plan, you always promise that you will but always have an excuse for why you haven't.

The last time I inquired was last Sunday. I asked you and we had a blow-out. I am sure you remember the conversation so I will not repeat it all here. All I will say is that once again you have promised to read the MB material and try to work at the relationship.

During the week that you have been gone I had ample time to look at everything I wanted to without interruption and I found out some interesting information. You promised me that you were break off contact with certain people via IM and I found out that you have not. Instead you have created multiple IM names and have also downloaded and installed Ebuddy onto your PSP so that you can continue to carry on your conversations w/o me knowing. The only reason I can believe that you would do this is because you obviously have something to hide and do not want to use the computers in our home to talk to whomever it is that you are talking to. You have access to IM services at work so there is really no need for you to have it on your PSP except for the purposes I have stated above.

This must stop immediately. If you cannot speak to whomever you are speaking to openly then you must stop communicating with that person.

I will not waver on that point and if you make the decsion to continue to try and be deceptive I will find out eventually and consider it to be a willful act of disrespect to the marriage and my person.

I am going to be very specific about what I need to work out the marriage. I hope that you will open up to me and tell me what you need so that we can try to make each other happy.

These are my top needs and I feel that none of them are being met right now.

My top needs:

1. Openness and Honesty: The lies, however white, and the secretive behavior destroy my feelings for you. When I find out that you have lied to me or omitted information about your daily routine and interactions with people I lose love for you and begin to dislike you.

2. Conversation, Meaningful Communication: I have no problem with talking about “light” things because I do like to laugh and joke with you. I need some balance because I do have a deep need to be able to talk about things that you would consider “heavy” or unpleasant at least occasionally. That need is consistently left unfilled because you will never initiate any conversations about our relationship with me. When I try to fill the need by brining up the relationship I am further hurt by your refusal to have a reasonable discussion and by the inevitable arguments that occur because you get angry at me for talking about what you do not want to talk about.

3. Financial Support: It always upsets me a great deal that I can never plan or maintain a budget without great deal of difficulty. I have a great need to plan for future goals of straightening out our credit and purchasing our first home. A great deal of my distress comes from living pay check to pay check and never saving or planning for the future (except in words). I become depressed because I feel that we will always be poor and that I will always be the one trying to stop you from spending. I get upset when you spend freely and will not listen to my input and then ask for my assistance in resolving our financial issues later on. I feel that when I have to plead with you not to spend that I am scolding you and that when I have to fix our financial issues that I am placed in a mother role with you and when I am forced into that role I feel no attraction for you.

4. Sexual fulfillment: Our sex life was good at one point, I had a high drive and I used to love to experiment and try new things. Gradually I became disinterested and experienced a decline in drive because as time went on in the relationship I began to feel that I was there only to give you what you wanted and that what I wanted did not matter. I feel that my preferences are discounted and lately sex has felt like a chore to me. There are things that I like to do that you think are only ok so you will not do them with me. I also feel that I was always the one trying to come up with new ideas and that the favor was never reciprocated.

5. Recreational companionship: You are my favorite person to spend time with. If I have to make a choice in a companion to participate with in an activity it will always be you first. I always want to do certain activities with you and I try my best to participate in the things that you like to do. I know that you do not like to go dancing, or to museums or Broadway shows, or the majority of the things that I like to do. It hurts me that you leave me to go alone or to go with friends even though I have a deep need to have your companionship while I am doing some of the things that I like to do.

During the week you were gone I suffered from intense emotional stress. It was a combination of dealing with the financial implications of the unforeseen trip, resentment that we would not be in this predicament if we had a better financial plan, disappointment that you were continuing to be deceptive in your actions and had broken the promise to me to not be secretive with emails and IM’s, desperation over trying to think of a plan that would actually work this time, jealousy when I found out that you tell other people your feelings and thoughts about our relationship, anger and resentment over your inability to let me in.

Finally, finally at the end of all of the emotions…despair when I realized that there is virtually nothing more that I can do to make you understand. I sat down one day in this empty house and I thought about a way that I could do it differently this time. I thought and thought it out, in my mind. I thought if I could only ask you the right way or express to you how deep my needs are you will understand. Then I realized that the only solution is that you must feel the need to work with me on the marriage. Without your willingness to be a mutual partner in keeping the marriage going it will never work out.

I cannot do it alone.

So I have decided to ask you again to work with me on the marriage. I have been very specific in what needs to be done on your part to ensure my happiness and I hope that you give me the same chance to make you happy.

I have given you the tools that you need to work with.

It matters very much to me that you take the initiative in keeping the promises that you have made to me.

I hope that you take the initiative to finish up the MB material on your own or at least to initiate a conversation about the relationship.

I hope that this is the last time that I have to ask you to work on the marriage and I hope you take me very seriously.

I love you and I want to be married to you but I cannot stay in a marriage where I have to do all of the work to make us happy. I cannot stay in a marriage where my needs go un-met. I cannot stay in a marriage where it is OK to be deceptive and tell lies. I want to be happy and I want YOU to be happy as well. I do not want our family to break up because the costs to everyone will be tremendous. That said I will leave if things do not change for the better.

Last week you said that I was writing you off and not giving you a chance. I am giving you a chance right now so please take it and do the very best that you can for the sake of the marriage and the family.

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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> So uhmmm....is it good or bad? Yes or no?

Should I stick with my earlier decision and go for Plan B?

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Quote
I hope that this is the last time that I have to ask you to work on the marriage and I hope you take me very seriously.

I think you should drop "I hope".

This is the last time that I will ask you to work on the marriage. I take this very seriously.

Other than that I think you've been extremely honest.

If he doesn't take you seriously than yes, I do think it will be time for Plan B.

But I also think you should ask him how you can help him accomplish these things.

I predict he will again be overwhelmed.

So you may have to give clear baby steps for him to easily connect the dots and make the changes slowly through time.

The biggest boundary is going to be around your number 1 EN. Bodes badly. He has time to do all that crap on the computer but no time to take steps to shore up his marriage?


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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Me FBS - 44
Him FWS - 51
I married him all over again, May 07
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Thanks mates4life.

I made these changes.

O.K I am adding this so that he knows he can come to me for help but if he chooses not to then that is going to be his own fault.

I have given you the tools that you need to work with;if you need my help, if there is anything that I can do to clarify what I need or if I need to show you how to give me what I need then please speak to me and I will help you.


This is the last time I will ask you to work on the marriage. I take this very seriously.

Instead of saying I will leave if things don't change....

That said I am leaving if things do not change for the better.

Quote
The biggest boundary is going to be around your number 1 EN. Bodes badly. He has time to do all that crap on the computer but no time to take steps to shore up his marriage?


Please don't remind me or I may waffle right back to an immediate Plan B. Trust me, this is a huge source of anger for me.

I know that much of what I am writing to him has been said but I have never put it together like that. I have never established a boundary with him. I want it in writing because I have a way of forgetting that I have already said something and he has a way of letting me forget by pretending everytime that it is "news" to him.

This time around I am printing our two copies, one for him and one for my records. If he does not follow through the second copy will be part of the letter he gets when I walk out the door and go into Plan B with another letter reminding him that he was given his chance.

Thank you again mates4life.

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I haven’t given him the letter yet, I am holding back because I have some thoughts that I need to get straight in my head first.

I want to live a fulfilled life; it’s not about acquiring a particular material possession, achieving a specific goal, or having a certain type of relationship. Those things are parts of living a fulfilled life but the meaning of living a fulfilled life (to me anyway) means living in consciousness, making good choices, and learning lessons from the inevitable mistakes that I make along the way.

I now know that I have lived unconsciously at times and that I have made poor choices because I refused to look at the big picture. I made poor choices out of desperation for love, acceptance, and denial of hard core truths that were not really hidden (I purposefully chose to NOT LOOK at the facts). I have called stupidity unconditional love, acceptance, and forgiveness. I have been a fool and like all fools I must deal with and pay for all of my foolish choices and mistakes. I am trying now to learn the lesson that I need to learn but I still have a mental block that mires me down in confusion. What is the lesson? I married someone whose moral values greatly differ from my own. I married someone who proved to me right from the start of our relationship that they had the propensity for telling lies and cheating.

I chose to do this, I did it to myself.

So why was I surprised that despite all of the promises and apology’s that he remained true to his character? Even though he never again (or so he says) had a PA the thought process never changed.

It’s just a slightly different version of the same game.

So now he is sorry (sorry he got caught) even though he has really done nothing wrong in his eyes, he is sorry because I was offended. He is sorry because his actions have caused “trouble” and he likes to avoid trouble. Does he truly believe that what he did was wrong? I very much doubt it…it was just a mistake from his point of view, a slip up after years of good behavior.

Now, I am mired down by the poor choices I have made. Worse yet, I have brought life into the world with this person. So there is no handy solution, can’t make a clean break or a fresh start because of the life we made together.

Hmmm well here it is and here we are but I don’t know if here is where I want to be.

I know what there is to lose if this ends and I also know what there is to be gained. Where I get lost at is that there is something that is being lost by saving the marriage for me. I am stuck at that point because by working on it I have to work through my loss and dissapointment.

I was watching Oprah and someone said the definition of forgivness is: To stop hoping that the past could have been different and to embrace it and accept it because of the change it created in your life.

This is where I get stuck.

I have verbalized forgiveness and I truly do not bring up anything from the distant past. I am trying to work on issues from the recent past but I cannot seem to wish that it couldn't have been different.

I am unable to accept the past and not wish that the things that happened never did happen.

I cannot see myself getting to a place of embracing any of it.

If I don't think of it then I am O.K but when I do think of it....all of the emotions are still very much with me....they are just less intense.

Certain things no longer make me cry or scream with rage as I would have previously. However, they still hurt, they still make me ache and I feel that they always will.

I genuinely feel that the only way to make the feelings stop is to be rid of the person who caused me to feel that way in the first place.

Still I hold on because I am not sure if that is the right thing to do and I know that no one can tell me if it is. No one on MB, neither friends nor family, not even him.

This is so very hard.

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I hope that everyone hasn't given up on me and thinks that I am woefully stubborn and not really interested in saving my marriage. That is far from the truth, I am interested in saving the marriage it's just that I am not 100% sure that it's the right thing to do anymore.


I'm still working everything over in my mind. It's funny because my entire focus previously was on how to save the marriage. I am glad that I have slowed down with that and have begun considering if I even want to save it. I wouldn't discourage anyone on MB from pursuing their marriages because I am sure their circumstances are different from mine. I am sure that at some point their marriages were good and that the infidelity is an abberation in an otherwise good marriage.


I am not so sure about my situation so please pardon me as I work this all out.

It helps me to write things down because sometimes my thoughts are jumbled.



What do I want?

It's a tall order but I am thinking in terms of an ideal situation. I think that I can live withouth some of these things but currently I am living without most of them.

I want someone who is devoted 100% to me without question, someone whose loyalty is unquestionable

I want someone who is honest and open, someone who is an effective “lay-it all on the table” communicator

I want someone who is interested in my thoughts and feelings and is protective of those thoughts and feelings

I want someone whose ambition and thirst for leading a fulfilled life is equal to my own

I want someone who relishes the pursuit of the mind

I want someone who is willing to pull me along when I lag and who is willing to be pushed when they need to be

I want someone whose moral values and religious beliefs are similar to my own

I want someone who believes that integrity and honor is important

I want someone who is interested in being self-less and self-sacrificing occasionally but knows that there is a fine line between those things and being a door-mat.

I need a little feedback if you can spare it...just need an unbiased outside observation.

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The husband has agreed to go to MC but he still doesn't believe in MB so calling Steve Harley is out. Does anyone know of a good MC in the NYC metro area?

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Here is the update.

The situation has changed but it's not getting better. His PA tactics are manifesting in different ways now. He is no longer having inappropriate friendships with OW (at least not that I know of) but he is doing other things and this weekend it has all come to a head.

It started out on Friday.

My mother is our babysitter because I go to school fulltime. She will come three days a week and the other two the husband is off and he has the kids, I have them on the weekend. On Friday there was a bad ice storm but school wasn't cancelled. My mother got here 15 minutes late and he got really pissed off. I got home from school early and logged onto IM to tell him I came home. As soon as I logged on he started to complaining about how she was late and that he had almost made him late to work. My mother had already told me all about it. She said that she couldn't help being late because she had to take the bus and it was late and that she had aplogized to him. I told him that she had already told me what happened and he exploded. He said that she was late the week prior and that he had got to work with only minutes to spare. Mind you she had never actually caused him to be late to work (only 2 close calls) and there was a terrible ice storm so even if he had been late I am sure his boss would have understood because it turned out that half the people called in anyway. He started ranting and raving about how she was going to cause him to lose his job and I did LB. I told him that we should be grateful that she watches our baby for free but that if it's a problem then we should hire a sitter and pay them to make sure they are always on time. He got even madder and started talking about how before that happens that I would have to quit school. Then he told me to forget it and I said fine then I will. So I logged off.

Next that same night, a light bulb blew out in the kitchen and we didn't have any replacements. I couldn't get through to him on his cell phone as he was coming home from work. When he got in I told him what happened and that I needed light in the kitchen to make bottles for the baby. He got the biggest attitude and told me to go to the store myself. I would have gone but I had no cash on me and besides it was already dark outside and I don't go to the store late night. The store is not even a block away and I said I wasn't going. He came into the living room and I was sitting in a chair holding the baby. He got really close to me so that my mother wouldn't see and he took the baby's hand and smacked my face with it and tried to make it seem like a joke. Then he pinched me really hard on my upper arm three times. I got mad and said in a low voice so my mom wouldn't hear that if he wanted to fight then go ahead but don't try to make it seem like you are playing and don't you dare pinch me ever again. He stormed out of the house and when he came back he was stomping around. My mother asked what was the matter but he didn't respond. After he fixed the light he went into the bedroom and wouldn't comeout. I went in and tried to talk to him but he kept saying you wanted a light bulb so you could fix bottles so go ahead and do it. I asked him again to talk about why he was angry but he wouldn't so I left him alone. Later on that night he came out (after my mother left) and acted as if all was normal (typical).

On Saturday I spend the entire day cleaning the house. Now that I am in school full time it seems to me that everything is left to me to do on the weekend. He used to pitch in but now he doesn't do anything around the house. This has been happening for a while but every Saturday I spend the entire day from when I wake up to the late afternoon cleaning. He leaves everything out and laying around. If he feeds the baby he will leave the bottles right there. He takes his shoes off by the front door and leaves them there. He spills food and leaves it there. He will not give the baby a bath nor change her clothes he will only diaper and feed her. I truly have a mess to contend with every Saturday. So when he came home on Saturday afternoon (he works half day) he dropped his things all over the house and started to mess up the house before it had even been clean an hour. He went into the kitchen to get food and spilled it all over the stove. He threw his clothes on the floor, draped his coat over the couch and just acted like he didn't care.

Today he got mad because I didn't do the laundry for the entire house. I only did the babies laundry, like I have been doing all along. The reason I don't do the laundry for the entire household is because I only have a tiny washing machine and no dryer. I wash her clothes and hang them up to dry and I don't mind because they are tiny. I can't wash our clothes and sheets because they are too large to wash more than 3-4 items at a time and we have no dryer. He used to take them to the laundry mat and wash them. After a while he stopped doing that and would just drop them off to be washed and pick them up the next day. I didn't like it becauses it's expensive but I never complained because at least they were getting done. Now he got mad at me because he said I am selfish to not wash at least a few items and hang them to dry!? I was stunned because I have never done that and it makes no sense to do it because the things are heavy and will not wash properly in that tiny washer. I told him that and as usual he said forget it forget it and stormed out the house.

He came back and I was in the kitchen making breakfast. He came up to me to give me a hug but I wasn't really responsive so he started his so called "Playfullness" again. He wouldn't move out of my way when I tried to pass him and he "play" smacked me in my face. I got mad and told him to move out of my way and pushed him and he grabbed me by both wrist and I got out of it and smacked him across the chest.

He blew it off and went about his business. I was angry about the incident and the entire weekend for the rest of the day. I finally told him that I had enough of all of this. I told him that I am going to quit school and get a job because I am leaving him for good. I told him that we have poor communication and that now he wants to add abuse to the situation and I will not stand for it. I told him that I am done and I mean it. He got defensive as usual and tried to make it seem like it's all my fault. He told me that he was just playing when he pinched me and again in the kitchen but that as usual I am making a big deal out of nothing.

He also said that I talk way too much (he said it's true but I am not trying to hurt your feelings, yeah right) and that if we have a problem it's because of me.

I told him that I have my flaws and that I do talk too much at times but I know that I am not crazy. I told him that I am tired of him claiming no part in all of this madness and that I wasn't going to swallow this nonsense about everything being perfect and me being a whiner. I told him that since JULY of '06 things have been bad and that one issue will go away but another always pops up and I have had it.

He asked me if I loved him and if I want to be with him. I told him yes on both parts but that it isn't enough anymore. That if the price for loving him and wanting to be with him is this high then I am gone.

I told him that even if it means getting public assistance until I can find a job I am going to do it because I am not moving back with my parent's.

He told me that he has been trying but he doesn't know what to do. I told him that I had tried to but that I didn't know what to do either because nothing that I have done has worked.

He suggested marriage counseling and I said fine if that is what you want. He told me that he really doesn't want to lose me and that he is willing to do what it takes. He went to our insurance's website and located the names of several counselors and has told me that he is calling tomorrow to make an appointment.

I don't believe him so I am making my plans regardless. If he follows through I will go and if anyone has the name of a counselor I will pass it on to him. If he doesn't do it then I am going to leave him and I mean it.

If you have read all of this thank you and I will update in the future.

Last edited by Almondeyes; 03/18/07 10:46 PM.
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