An email Dr. Harley sent to a board member about exposure:

2334pem: While most affairs die a natural death in less than two years, there are some that take much longer to die. That's one of the primary reasons that my first rule in surviving an affair is to never see or talk to the lover again -- even if the affair seems to have died a natural death. An affair can rekindle after it seems to be over. And to guarantee complete separation between the unfaithful spouse and the lover, extraordinary precautions must be taken, such as providing radical accountability and transparency. In many cases, I've encouraged couples I've counseled to change jobs or even move to another state to help create permanent separation.

Another suggestion I make to a couple struggling to restore their marriage after one of them had an affair is to make the affair public. Everyone should know what happened -- children, relatives, friends, and especially the children and spouse of the lover -- so that the affair is exposed to the light of day. What often makes affairs appealing is that it is done in secret. Most affairs become very unappealing once everyone knows about it.

So whether an affair is a one night stand, or has been going on for years, the basic rule for ending them are the same -- extraordinary precautions to guarantee permanent separation. But I will admit that the precautions used for long-term affairs are usually more extraordinary than those used for short-term affairs. I've helped many spouses overcome affairs that have lasted over ten years, but none of them have been easy.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=&PHPSESSID

Ugh, Here it comes. It may be personal and unprofessional....but then so is everyone's opinion here including yours. None hold anymore weight than any other. Ironically, you can't discredit me....without discrediting yourself. So now that we've established our mutual lack of expertise....can we just go on to say that we'll probably keep giving our flawed advice anyway.


huh?


I suggested he call the Harley's about timing for the exposure at work....not to execute plan A...not to skip exposure. And since he couldn't....I understand he'll have to make this call on his own. You want to drum up an debate where none exists.

I also wanted to let him know that I understood from his past posts why HE (NST) is worried about his own control issues and how exposure might fit into that picture. That's not a crime....and it's not misleading. He has some legitimate reasons for feeling uncomfortable about exposure....and I thought Dr. H might help him to deal with his own self doubt and next steps better than the general board might.


yes yes yes....*yawn*....everyone knows about his radio show mel. I can't even imagine how many posts would come up in a search with "melody+radio show" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. But if you think for one second that Harley gives every single person in every single situation the exact same advice drawn and cut from some imaginary template....you're loony. I've heard the show....he's very creative and dynamic. The advice he gives is far more flexible than this forum.


Bull....Plan A is on the main site....where is the "part and parcel" about exposure???? Conspicuously absent don't you think? It's not in his books either. If it's the same for everyone....why isn't it EVERYWHERE? Why isn't there a comprehensive, written guide for exposure written by Dr. H as part of SAA or the main site? One reason is that because Dr. H suggests it....not demands it. He doesn't round up people with verbal 2X4s to hound someone until they comply to exposure whether they want to or not. Exposure can be done with great class and assertiveness....but it's not for everyone. There are quite a few people wh'd rather say goodbye to their marriage than have to resort to exposure. It's a choice.


I haven't heard him talk about lots of subjects....that doesn't mean a thing. I have heard him go against "standard procedure" on this board before though. His clients have posted many times about some of those differences.


Is that your professional opinion Dr.mel?


You don't listen mel. Show me where I told him to "skip" exposure or do a "lopsided" Plan A? Those phrases are your creations. I spoke of "timing" and that's all. I suggested he call Harley for support and advice.

This is your typical style of making accusations, putting words in people's mouth.....so that you have things to refute and raise controversy about. It has been pretty quiet around here....maybe a good wrassling match would stir things up!! yee haw.

Your "best bet" is nothing more than one more unprofessional opinion on this board.

Personally (and unprofessionally) (but brilliantly and inspired heheheheheheh)....I'd like to see him move to Plan B. That little girl he's married to is more likely to wake up....and he's more likely to show he can survive without her....if he's not busting all over the place. I'm kinda scared of his "stalking" tendencies. This Plan A has gone on long enough and been through too many D-days to be effective any longer. He's obsessed with snooping....it's consumed him. Part of that is because she isn't trustworthy....but the other part that he can control....might be better served with Plan B where he could get some healthy detachment. So as far as the workplace exposure.....my best (unprofessional) advice would be....get control of your emotions for a short time, get your finances in order, get control of lbs....and then...expose at work and move into Plan B at about the same time.

Oh for pete's sake mel....I've seen all those recycled letters....I've been here forever. This gets so boring. The letter makes general statements...and Harley himself uses the word "suggestions". Anyone whose actually counseled with the Harleys knows that individual or marriage counseling is tailored specifically for individuals and marriages.....as it should be. The only people who apply these "standards" in the way they are applied here on MB....are the unprofessionals here on MB. If you truly know everthing the Harleys will say....why would anyone EVER need to call the Harleys????

Now, I'm going to give this thread back to NST, and I hope you will too. Go be the "undisputed hairdo" on your own board. On this board....different opinions are welcome.

Starfish - I don't think I have EVER seen you enthusiastically endorse exposure without watering it down with adendums and warnings etc. As much as you like to say how pro-exposure you are.

How is your private board going these days BTW?

bk,


There ya go....if one falsehood doesn't work....invent another one. I endorse exposure plenty. Here's a good example....amazingly, I easily found something I supposedly never do:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3083837

....and I've never had a private board and still don't. I haven't been connected to the <other> public board for over a year....and even when I was....the only private area I used was administrative.

But, no one IS discrediting you at all. Your advice is contradictory to standard advice, this is why I point out that it is unprofessional. This is why I stick to standard MB principles, I realize I am NOT the professional here. And lets keep in mind here that the "professionals" never ever state anywhere that one needs to get "professional advice" to expose, meet needs or avoid lovebusters. If they felt it was important, I imagine they would put such a disclaimer on their own site, dont' you?


I question your rationale for suggesting he must get counseling to do a simple exposure. He doesn't. And such a suggestion only slows him down when time is of the essence. Not only does he not have a NEED to get counseling to do Plan A, he doesn't have the money. EVERY BS feels uncomfortable about exposure. EVERY ONE. We don't tell them they have to go to counseling to expose. His clinginess issues are standard variety Plan A fodder.


It sure seems to bother you when I mention his show, doesn't it? You should listen more often! You might get something out of it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Even so, he is pretty consistent with his very CREATIVE principles. They don't change. And guess what?? Never have I heard him say one must call for counseling to expose an affair!! Never have I heard him say that one get counseling for "control" issues! NOPE! But he does talk alot about EXPOSURE, doesn't he?


LOL Surely you jest, starfish. Where do you think the concept of exposure came from? Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy? Ummmmm no, dear, it came from ...THE HARLEYS! Steve Harley talks about it. Jennifer Harley talks about it. Dr. Harley talks about it OFTEN in his radio show. And guess what? THEY DON'T EVER SAY 'you must call for counseling to expose.' NEVER. Do you really think there needs to be a detailed, conmprehensive MANUAL on exposure? I don't see why. I think it is pretty simple to figure out. People are not stupid, after all.


So you have no reason to believe that he does suggest such a thing. However, I HAVE heard him talk about control issues in conjunction with Plan A. Several times, in fact. He has never told anyone to go to "counseling" for it. That is just your own extrapolation.


Now wait a minute! In the last breath you were complaining you had seen nothing written about exposure and then in the next say his letter addressing exposure is too "boring?" LOL

Boring? Why? Because they refute the advice you are giving? sheesh! I don't find anything that imparts his wisdom that may help a newcomer to be "boring." Of course they are general statements...... for general PEOPLE. They are not meant for puppies or martians, after all, but PEOPLE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, he is not in counseling, nor does he NEED to be in counseling to utilize Marriage Builders principles. He can do that all just fine on his own. Many marriages have problems, that is the rule, not the exception so this case is no different. None of us here know exactly what the Harley's would advise if he were in counseling. You don't, I don't.

He is here on the Harley's own forum learning about THEIR principles from other novices who themselves have had success using these same tried and true MB principles.

People can and do it all on their own every day. If everyone had to get counseling to conduct Plan A, this would be a pretty quiet place, because many cannot afford $185 per session to do something that is fairly basic and standard.

Fortunately, not even the Harleys, who DO offer counseling services, would go so far to imply that one could only do Plan A with their professional guidance. They publicized Plan A for public consumption, after all. This is THEIR FORUM, THEIR PRINCIPLES. So, I am not sure why you would suggest he go to counseling. He is in a position where time is of the essence, so I think that trying to make him believe that he must get counseling before he can help himself is counterproductive to his situation. What he needs most is the benefit of these tried and true principles, not manufactured hypotheticals that only serve to impede success.

mel,


All advice here is unprofessional.


I didn't say ne "needed" it either. I just thought it might be helpful for him to speak to a professional because I think he's been in a bad Plan A for some time. He's been busting alot, and already agreed to let his wife speak to her OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> There is NO WHERE that I said counseling was a <prerequisite> for anything or necessary to do a Plan A or exposure....you're just making that up. When I think folks could benefit from more help than just the forum....I recommend it. I think it's VERY okay to tell people to CALL Harley on his own site. Are you telling me that's NOT standard advice??? People can read what I did or did not say.....it's right there uneditted.

I'll repost it so there isn't any confusion:


Keep spinning what I said if you'd like to. I've got to go to work now so you can have the last word.

starfish, thanks for clarifying that you were NOT suggesting that he NOT expose until he "enlist the aid of professional counseling" because "control issues can complicate the dynamics." It very much seemed like you were saying that, so thanks for setting me straight!

I very much agree that counseling with the Harleys is always a good idea and often recommend it myself! Take care! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Alright, let's stop flaming each other and start helping out NST.

NST, call up Dr. Harley on his radio show @ 11:00am CST. He should help you out, and it's free. He'll even send you some of his books. You NEED to expose at work. You NEED to lay down and enforce your boundaries. If your WW continues to ignore your boundaries, you need to cut her off. She'll be afraid to make it on her own, especially with the job she's got (and especially if she get's in trouble at work). Find her friend that she is supposed lined up to share an apartment, expose to her (about the kissing and fondling), and ask that she not involve herself in your marriage. You need to stand up and fight, not lay down and take it.

I beg your pardon, Jim?

ML,

Are you going to start flaming me now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, NST is someone who's story I've followed closely and I'm rooting for him. He is paralyzed by fear of making his wife angry. I'm trying to help him, but one of the things I always struggled with when I started posting here is when other posters argued back and forth for 10 posts about strategy. I don't want him confused. I think that your post count and agreement with me (since I have been the main person advising NST this entire time) will be enough to convince him what he needs to do. He just needs some encouragement. He hasn't used all the tools in his arsenal yet, and he is letting his WW walk all over him. I really don't care who is right, I just care about NST saving his M. Please just address NST in this thread and don't worry about other posters. They will only get this thread off track.

Jim, I sure appreciate your advice, but I will address whom I choose as I see fit. Please leave the post policing to the mods. Thanks.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi everybody,

I really appreciate all the hard work and encouragement all of you are showing me. I'm starting to make sense of some of this, even in the face of the conflicts in this thread as well as within myself.

I can see that full exposure is likely my only option at this point -- other than jumping directly into Plan B.

The problem is quickly becoming one of motivation, though. I'm having serious doubts about whether this is all even worth it. I've been lied to and deceived and confused and mixed up so dang much over the last 3 months (!) that I question whether I want to continue the marriage. I have no interest in living the rest of my life worrying that V will do this again, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to shake that.

At any rate, my current plan of action is to continue collecting evidence for use in exposure (and potentially in divorce proceedings if it comes to that), as well as completely eliminate LBs on my part and do what I can where I can to meet V's ENs.

I managed to get a copy of the "Valentine Application" with Dale sent to V and print it out this morning. It's pretty incriminating as to his intentions. I also know his email address now as well as his last name.

I also have to figure out who at their company to expose to. I don't know if her direct superior would be sympathetic to my cause, so I'm currently aiming to contact the district manager. Suggestions here would be very helpful.

After exposure, either V stays and works on the marriage, with NO contact with Dale, or it's Plan B and she moves out.

For clarity, I'm talking about days here, not weeks for my timeline.

I would talk to each of their store managers up to the district manager, and anyone else you can get a hold of including HR manager. Find out Dale's parents and get a hold of them. They were very helpful in ending things. After that, block myspace and his email address, delete his phone number, and change your WW's number. Make sure her parents, siblings, and friends know about this Valentine's application as well as the previous kissing and fondling. Let her know that you will not tolerate Dale in your house and in your M. Cut her off financially and let her know that she needs to get her own health and car insurance and get out by next week if she continues to hurt you.

Read what happened in my situation when I finally stood up for myself.

The day Jim stood up and was unafraid to lose his WW

Note to Jim and others; when referencing a specific post, pleas keep in mind that just cut-n-pasting the "normal" url, doesnt work (unless its within the first 10 posts in a thread). because different people have different page lengths.
What you need to do is click the "email post" icon, to email the link to yourself. This will give you a link to that specific post only, which you can then share with everyone to read cleanly.

If you want to reference a subpart of a larger thread... well, then it gets messy :-/
time to make a new "summary" thread? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Jim,

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what post in that thread you're referring to.

Thanks!

I sympathize for NST and his fear, I myself am experiencing this fear. My WW does not threaten divorce, she consistently says "You know what I want" (referring to divorce, something she said seriously ONLY in the first two weeks of the separation)

So, if you are using Plan A, and you are faced with a demand from the WW to talk to the OM (Dale), how does one establish their boundaries without making demands themselves?

Do you say "Absolutely not, I am not amenable to that." Or what? That's a tough call, it's walking the tightrope. If you are afraid of the not so hidden threat what do you do? Call her bluff?

I agree with a certain degree of assertiveness, I have read many times about the effect you can make on your WW by regaining her respect and being a man. I have seen it myself in the very short time I have been using it, just by the look in my WW's eyes. Be a man, set your boundaries, leave the "or what" unspoken, mysterious, yet still caring and thoughtful.

This is unacceptable to me, I can not condone you speaking to OM. And leave the rest unsaid. That's my rookie thought.

I'm referring to the post that I made on 11/8 and the next couple pages after that.

NST,

Exposure has been covered pretty thoroughly so I'd like to talk about a few other things.


How are you doing with this? What are you planning to do (or not do) to show significant change/improvement in this department?


As people mentioned this is a bad idea. In her IM conversation with her mother, did you get a sense of her timeline? Was it immediate or still in the planning stage? It might be that you 'bargained' for 3 weeks unnecessarily if she was only 'preparing.' Who knows how long that might take?

I guess, what I'm asking is whether or not it's worth holding to this "agreement" verses just telling her you've changed your mind about contact and telling her to "do what she needs to do."

I think you might be better off in the long run if you take a firm/consistent stance on this -- otherwise, you might end up bargaining this stuff out endlessly. You made a bad decision but I don't see why you shouldn't just change it.

The trick will be to 1.) acknowledge that you DID agree to the contact. 2.) assert that you are no longer ok with it and are rescinding the agreement. Of course that means that she no longer has to hold to her part of the bargain (because carrying on contact is NO bargain).

Do you think she'd even be able to move out right away? You might get your 3 weeks by default. (or a month or 6 months...)

Mys

NST,

you wrote this:

"On Thursday evening, I was able to convince her to give me 3 more weeks to show changes and improvements in my behavior - less controlling, less smothering, etc. It was very difficult even to gain this. One of her conditions was that she be able to *speak* with Dale. Sadly, I wasn't in much of a position to say no."

M2L:

The more I think about this the more I don't think you will get anywhere until your wife respects you. In order for her to respect you, you have to respect yourself first.

When is it your turn to be heard? Why don't you do something about your sitch instead of letting things happen to you?

I know it is hard and scary. You have never been in this sitch before and don't know what to expect.

1. you are about to expose - good.
2. your wife will get very mad at you and call you many names and tell you all about getting D.
3. You will feel hurt and lost. Your world is upside down and you just want off this damn ride for a while.
4. Other people seem to be living good lives, why not me?

How to get out of this and be happy with your wife?

Expose, learn to set your boundaries and respect yourself. You count too!!

NC will Dale - none

When talking to your wife use I statements like:

"I feel hurt and disrespected when you talk to Dale."

When you say I she can't argue with you - it's how you feel.

I'll say it again - YOU COUNT TOO.

Pulling for you.

I am planning to expose to both their managers as well as Dale's parents and V's mother and siblings ASAP - probably tomorrow.

I'm going to speak with V tonight and tell her that I've changed my mind about her having any contact with Dale. I do not believe she is able to be "just friends" with him, nor will she ever be. Whatever she decides to do, while she's living with me, she is to have NO CONTACT, whatsoever, with him.

I'm also going to make it clear that if she leaves she will receive no financial support from me at all.

I am going to do my best to phrase everything I say in terms of setting boundaries and talking about how I feel - To avoid ultimatums and room for her to argue with me. Any advice in these areas, especially phrasing in terms of boundary setting vs. ultimatums, would be most appreciated.