I have been lurking here for not quite a month and have been so inspired by, awed by, and helped by everything I've read everywhere, but especially on LilSis' thread. LilSis, you are amazing! Everyone who has responded on her thread is just as amazing in my book, with the great ideas, support, and suggestions!
I have now gotten the "courage" to post - something I've never done anywhere!
So, let me try to summarize my situation:

Previously Married 1989 - Separated 1999 Divorced 2000 - no kids
Current Marriage 2001
Stepson 12 Our daughter 5

Where to begin? I had what I "thought" was a typical marriage. Not terribly bad, not a lot of fighting, we had the same issues I thought every marriage normally had. He wasn't getting enough sex, I felt overworked with full time job and taking care of the home, he wanted to always buy toys, I wanted to build a new house, the ususal things that couples just work thru.

September 18th he started a new job. We had previously worked for the same company, but in different areas. We were both excited & nervous about it, but it seemed like a great opportunity for him. At the same time, I started to notice him staying out later & later and some irregularities in his accounting for his time. The first day of his new job, the entire staff was taken to a concert and he did not get home until nearly 2am.
In my previous marriage, I had a dishonest spouse & have the "3rd sense" when something seems up. So, I started taking notice of receipts lying around. A gas receipt from that night did not match up with the story he told me. When I finally asked him about it he tells me that he gave a ride to a husband & wife who are his new employees because they were drunk. He didn't tell me about it because while giving them this ride, they got naked and were doing it in the car??!! Great company he's going to work for, isn't it?
Moving on, the late hours and nites out continue.
Nov 2, a vm message at home that "Beth" had to cancel his appt, please call to reschedule. I have NO idea who Beth is, so I ask. She is his COUNSELOR who he has been seeing for 3 or 4 weeks. He's feeling very confused & needs help figuring out "some things", eventually saying he started therapy to "fix us".
I subsequently get a list of things that are wrong with me and our marriage. He tells me that we should go to see the counselor together, to which I readily agree.
First appt 11/28. I am SO EXCITED! I really like the counselor and unlike a couple we have seen before, I truly believe she can help us work thru things! UNTIL,, 11/30, I find a receipt where he purchased a dozen roses the same day as the appt and I certainly did not receive them. When confronted, he tells me he bought them for a girl at his work who was going to be fired. He felt bad for her, a single mom, trying hard, and wanted to do something nice for her. He did not sign a card and she did not know they were from him, he just left them on her porch at her HOME!
all of the assurances that NOTHING was going on.
He decided he needed to move out on 12/2. Moved to his dad's in the same town. Stepson stays with him for the most part. During this we have both seen counselor separately.
We had HUGE fight regarding an out of town business trip I had planned. He expected to stay at our home with the kids while I was gone. I was adamant that it was not appropriate. He was extremely angry and informed me that it was HIS house, HE paid the bills, and HE would stay there whenever he wanted. Long story short, he didn't stay there while I was gone, but this continues to be a HUGE resentment on his part.
Joint session 12/14 - He doesn't know if he wants to try to fix the marriage. Decided that first session after the holidays 1/9 we would both have made decision on if we want to work on the marriage. Had a session to work out holiday logistics where we agreed to keep the "normal" routine for the kids. This was just freaking great for me! He's withdrawn, distant, and cold to me and the entire family and then is upset with the family because no one really talked to him like they usually do! DUH! What are they supposed to say< Hey thanks for breaking my sister/daughter's heart! How's the new girlfriend??

Hate to break here, but I am at work on and getting on a conference call. I will continue the saga later.

I'm back,, 1/5 he asks to have a TALK - during all of this time we haven't had any real relationship talk, so I am pretty excited. The BOMB drops, he wants a Divorce. I am devestated!
Later, he makes an email comment how he can't "live a lie with me". When asked about it, he says he "has feelings for someone else" I pushed for details and found out she is now aware of his feelings and reciprocates, but "nothing has happened".

I fell apart, did the normal begging, crying routine with no results other than that look of pity.

THEN I found MB and have working diligently on Plan A.

Since then, he has had times where he is back to being H, not WS and it's been great when that does happen. I then have hope. We have had SF numerous times - I know this is controversial with some folks, but I chose this knowing the health risk as well as the emotional risks and am not sorry I have done so. Many actions in my Plan A seem to be working, but he is still close one moment, withdrawn the next. I can relate it to when I am pretty sure he has had interactions with OW.

I have skipped a lot of detail here to try to get to my present situation, so feel free to question what important info I may have missed here in order to get some good feedback

In the last week, he has made comments about having a nervous breakdown. He loses "time", doesn't know where he is or how he has gotten there?? Seems to be falling into a depression.
So,,,, when the BS is in this state, what is the best Plan A approach?? I need all of the help I can get!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

well -- welcome, sorry you are here -- but good thing you are!

after all of your reading, you know that while Plan A is great...Exposure is what you need to be doing.

I wouldn't bother with any further counselling sessions while he is having an affair, no wonder he's confused.

You need to do some more snooping and then go for exposure.
Find out exactly who she is. Find out how to expose her too.

You have a lot to be hopeful about!

Lexxy,

Thanks for the welcome & reply.

I DO know exactly who she is. I have exposed to many people (friends & family) but not the entire world as we know it. The work environment at his new job is one where everyone sleeps with everyone else and nothing is done by management to stop any of it, as many of them have done it themselves. It's a pretty sick place from what I have learned. He really isn't happy there for many reasons and has been talking about looking elsewhere, but the money is very hard to walk away from.

Exposure is something I am really struggling with! I have not confirmed a physical relationship and have told myself I don't really want to know. I guess I've justified that I can't expose what I am not sure about. I know that's rather weak, but it is where I am right now.


We have not continued joint counseling, but we are each in individual, at least I think he's still going. He mentioned last week that he doesn't think she's much of a "marriage" counselor - - - I pointed out that she isn't doing marriage counseling for us, she is only counseling us each as individuals, based on his decision to work on the marriage. He didn't respond to that.

I am focusing on my personal growth,,,being more of the happy, fun-loving person I used to be. The things I've learned here have made me realize that doing this for myself is the best thing I can do right now.

Thanks again for the welcome.

Wow! I finally check back on the big board after my up and down drama of the day and see my name in a thread! I'm famous.

Bugs:
I'm sorry for "why" you are here, but you are in a good, safe place. Good for you for finding MB and having the strength to start your Plan A so soon after the bomb dropped. A lot of what the pros have told me will apply to you, I'm sure. You have a lot of this figured out already...great job! I needed someone to tell me exactly what to do every step of the way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It sounds like you are making progress, if you are seeing H more and he's acting like he's losing it...that's a good thing. Even better that he's admitting that to you! My WH acts (to me) like he's got it ALL figured out and is oh so confident in his decision.

Others here know MUCH more about exposure...but can you at least expose with the facts that you DO have? Your H has moved out of your home and is in a relationship with another woman that makes you very uncomfortable and you are trying to save your marriage. So you haven't confirmed the EXACT nature of their relationship...but does that really matter? Normal (non-W) people would see it for EXACTLY what it is...improper and inappropriate and very likely an A.

And with that, I'll leave it to the pros! I'll keep up with you, though! We can cheer each other on, okay?

(((Bugs)))
LilSis

So is your H not living at home?

If not, it's important to invite him back home ASAP in order to work on your marriage.

That's the MOST EFFECTIVE situation in which to do PLAN A and actually he's correct..it is HIS HOUSE and HIS FAMILY...

ETA: It's crucial to find out all that you can about this woman....

All,

Thank you for your responses, advice and support! Sorry I haven't posted in a few days, but with work travel and such I don't get a lot of on line time.
Sis- You are famous in how your brave sharing of your story is inspiring many, many people. Keep that faith!

Mimi-
No, he moved out Dec 5. He is currently living with his dad. My step son is also "living" there, although I spend almost as much time with him as WS does.

At first my reply to your question about inviting him home to work on the marriage was going to be "I have already done this". However, when I really thought about it, I realized I don't think I have said the words - PLEASE COME HOME.

I HAVE told him how much I love him, how much I need him, how his family needs him, that I KNOW without a doubt that we can work thru anything that has happened and end up with a BETTER marriage than what we had before.

I have at ever opportunity told him what a great, loving, wonderful man I think he is. That I believe in him, no matter what the circumstance. All of which is true!

He told me last week that the OW and he are "nothing", were "nothing", and are now barely semi-friends. This information came as part of a story about his work. Someone is wanting his job and rallying to get it by telling stories that include the "office rumor" that he and the OW were involved, but have had a bad breakup.

Having been reading on MB this should tell me a lot. First, that there has been a whole lot more to the situation than he had admitted to. Second, he is wanting to prevent any more exposure, and third, he's trying to keep me from going down that road. What else am I missing here?

He dropped the kids off yesterday afernoon & on his way out asked that we have a discussion soon, as he is moving out of his dad's house and getting an apartment. He said he doesn't think his dad wants him living there.

I know that the truth is his Dad wants him to come home to Me & his family. WS was supposed to have kids for the weekend starting Friday night. Instead, he had his dad pick them up and he went out late with friends. Dad ended up babysitting, and apparently told WS that it wasn't right! GO DAD!!

Up until now, we have both continued to pay our bills as we did before he moved out. I am sure that he believes he bears the heavier load, but it's hardly true. By my calculations if we "split" our joint bills, he will have about $195 more per month than he currently does now. I don't know of an apartment with utilities you can get for that amount of money.

Suggestions anyone on how to handle this pending discussion???? I'm going to need a lot of help not to LB in the middle of this one!

What an evening! WS came by to pick up SS and started out very cold & distant.
Conversation turned to talk about his work and a new opportunity . He said last week he was going to accept the offer to come back to the company where I work and he used to work. Now, that has changed again and he is planning to stay where he is.

I am not happy about that, as that is where OW works, but I kept that out of our conversation. I tried to be supportive of his decision and listen carefully to his reasoning.

He brought up again that we need to have a discussion - he mentioned that he didn't know when/how we would discuss "our lives", but he HAS to move out of his dad's and get into an apartment. He can't do that when he is "Paying for everything here". I told him, don't get an apartment, come home! I love you, I need you, I want you here, and I want you here to work things out between us.

He said, "No, I can't do that". I asked why not. He said because this isn't what he wants. I replied that I don't want a divorce, I want, love, and need him. He replied that he didn't want to have that conversation right now and started to leave. He asked (as he always does) if I needed anything, I said, I just need my husband back, everything else is irrelevant. He stopped, looked at me in an angry way, and asked why I am "now pushing that all of a sudden". I said, I am only being honest with you. You asked what I need & I told you. I have been telling you this now for over a month and I'm not going to stop

He came back into the kitchen and asked me to tell him what conversations I had with a particular friend of mine about our situation. She is friends with some of the staff in his office. I told him she knows that you wanted to explore your feelings with and for the OW, and that I want to fix our marriage. His reply was that there had to be more than that,,,,,, Did I ask specifically about the OW? I said, yes, I did, because I wanted to know. He said, "I don't need this cr*p at work,,, why would you do that when I told you there is nothing between us". I reminded him that he had only told me that last Thursday,,,, an entire month after he had told me that they were going to "explore their feelings" for one another. My conversations with my friend happened during that time.

He tried to spin it that I was trying to make trouble for him at work. I calmly informed him that if I had wanted to do that, there were much easier and direct ways to go about that. I could have even gone as far as to call the OW direct, but I haven't. He dropped it then.

He told me that he's tried to be there for me and take care of things that I needed - - but "I can't come back here. Things aren't right between us, not right now".

When he said "not right now" my heart almost leaped out of my chest!!! Unfortunately, I then missed the opportunity to thank him for being there for me and to tell him how much that means to mean. I have to make a point to re-visit that.

He then said, "what if I come back here and 3 or 6 months go by and we're right back where we were before? I don't think anything would have changed if I hadn't left".
I told him, you may be right about it not changing had you not done that, I don't know. I can't change the past. All I can do is learn from it and use that to make the future better. I understand that it is a matter of trust! He doesn't trust that the changes I have made & continue to make are for real and are permanent. Perhaps I'd feel the same way if I were him.

The truth is that I don't want the marriage we had before - because it didn't work. I want to take the good things from that and make a better marriage. I know to the bottom of my soul that it CAN be that way, just like I know to the bottom of my soul that I love & need him, just like I believe in him the same way. This isn't about manipulation, it's about the truth. I can't MAKE him do anything and am not trying to. I AM telling the truth, I am working on myself and figuring out a better way for the future. All I can do is continue that and to ask him to give me a chance to prove it - so he can believe as I do. If I have to spend every day from now until the end doing all I can to prove it to him, then that is what I am going to do.

I was calm, quiet, but firm and looking him in the eyes the entire time.

He said he had to go, and I didn't try to stop him. He said good bye to DD. I did get a hug, (almost 2 arms), and I said into his neck, I love you. I recv'd 3 or 4 squeezes, and an I love you back. Ended with a kiss on lips and a nice eye to eye!

Am I CRAZY to feel excited???? Am I reading too much HOPE into this??? I am just flying high!

I know there is a TON of work yet to go here - I DO have to prove this all to him and I WILL do everything I can to make that happen. I am sure he's going to end up in an apt, which will make it harder to get him home, so these are challenges I need to be realistic about.

It's just hard not to seize on anything that looks like a possible good sign!

Yay!!! Wow! What progress! You are incredible! Your calm and the things you said sound EXACTLY like the advice I've been given! And look at the result!! I'll leave it to the pros as to next steps for you, but I'm cheering for you big time.

I don't blame you for flying high...I would be, too. (but at the same time, I'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop...that's just me, based on months of shoes dropping all around me)

An ILY!?!?! Are you kidding!?!?! WAY TO GO!

Should I change the name of my thread to "I want to be like Bugsmom!"??

Because I'm jealous.... you got a kiss, too!

Lil Sis -

I have to give you such a big THANK you! I am serious, I would have read much of the advice here, but without the context of all of your hard work, ups & downs, diligence & perserverence, I could NEVER have done what I did last night.

I would not have know the things to say, how to say them, when to STOP talking, if it weren't for you. I am sorry you (like me) had to come here, but am glad we both did!

You ARE making terrific progress, too!! 2 phone calls where you actually spoke with H!!! TOO COOL!! Pat yourself on the back & know I'm doing it too!

You need to expose his affair.

How much evidence or details do you have?
You may need to get more snooping done.

His job might be a casualty of that. But your marriage can't get better if he's still actively involved in an affair.

And he has very effectively disarmed you so far.

You need to stop believing what he says. He's tossing you crumbs and you're ecstatic.

Find out exactly what you are up against. Then expose it.

WONDERFUL!! He wanted you to be agreeable to HIS PLAN..so scripted, isn't it?



THE WONDERS OF MBers AND PLAN A!!!!



WH thinking: Maybe provoking her will work...
SUPER...you didn't fall for this!!



I'm quoting what you are saying because you have WONDERFUL COMEBACKS....YOU ARE DOING GREAT!!!!



SUPERB!!!!



This is a direct outcome of your WONDERFUL PLAN A CONVERSATION here!!!



Don't back down on what you are saying here. Continue to discourage the apt...what a waste of money, too...



You may have a ways to go..you likely do..but NEVER GIVE UP HOPE..accept the reality of today in order to remain motivated but NEVER GIVE UP HOPE FOR THE FUTURE...You have every reason to be very much pleased with YOURSELF..how hard you are working on yourself and your marriage....THAT IS ADMIRABLE AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also, make nothing easy for him. He wants to have a discussion about finances? Let HIM bring it up, let HIM come up with the answers. Do not assist him.
Make him do all the work, let him be the bad guy.

You need to know what you are up against. Its not just exploring some feelings for OW. You know that right? The roses? he lied. They're not friends? he lied.
He's TERRIFIED of being outed at work. Use that.

He also blanched when you threatened to confront OW. Consider it. He's obviously lied to her too.

What do you know about OW? Is she married? There is another exposure target.

You have a lot of work to do. You need to know your enemy.

Let's see. I know the OW is single mother of 12yr old DS, divorced from a wealthy/influential family in her area. Had broken up recently with doctor boyfriend of 3 years, mostly due to his not wanting to have more children (if the rumors are correct.

I wasn't able to snoop much more after DDday as he moved out and I have no access to much of anything of his.

However, I did learn from a friend this afternoon a bit more. She had a conversation with OW, during which OW, says "So, you know". Friend stayed very neutral, but said yes. OW did admit to having been seeing him. Says it has ended and she is back with old boyfriend now. She "felt bad" about dating a married man and did not want to be a homewrecker. She is very unhappy with how uncomfortable it is now at work. BOO HOO!

I think they are both just sorry it was brought out in the open! Apparently it has been discussed throughout their office for several weeks. I don't believe what either of them have to say about it right now. I have no way to know the truth either way.

LEXXY - - Great advise on not making it easy for him. The OLD me would have had a spreadsheet drawn up with account numbers, amounts, due dates, the works and then I would have had it split out exactly to the penny what was "fair" with ME on the lesser side of "fair".

NOT ANY MORE! I told him to work up something and let me know. I made no suggestions, no timeframes, nothing to move it forward at all.

In that same regard, he called this morning to tell me he couldn't keep the kids Wed night, his regular night to have them. He said it is due to required training at his work. I told him that I can't change, as I am out of town for business that night. I always try to make my trips when I am not scheduled to have the kids. (Yes, I keep my stepson one night a week and every other weekend just as if he were mine by birth)

At first I felt bad, but then realized, this is HIS responsibility , not mine. So, rather than being the fixer, I left him to his own devices. The bad part is that his "solution", is going to make it a rough day on the kids with the hours of having to get up and be shufffled around. I hate that part.

The BIGGEST challenge I face right now is in explaining my plan/reasonings/thinking to the few family and friends I share everything with. I know they love me & want the best for me, but they are all concerned that I am letting myself be a doormat or that I am going to let him take advantage of me.

I realize, though, that having to explain the Basic Concepts, Plan A, and everything I've learned here is really a GOOD thing. It helps keep me focused, helps me work my plan even better, helps me understand it and continue to work on it & me even more.

I am SO very blessed! In the middle of the hardest time of my life I have the blessing of great friends and family, as well as the excellent support I have found here! Thanks Lord for my MB angels!!

That little bit of intel is awesome!

I think your WH is holding on to some hope, thats why you haven't seen him come begging back yet.

You have so much to work with!

Great job, bugs! Will that friend be able to provide you with intel moving forward? It would be very useful for you to have continued access to inside information.

It is hard for family. As you know, they just want the best for you and don't want to see you hurting...which is why aside from MIL, I don't talk to ANY of my family about it. In their eyes, WH is persona non grata; "worthy only of contempt," says my mom.

I am fortunate to have one friend who went through the exact same thing...so she totally understands...but even so, I can see her wince when I tell her about what's going on. And she GETS IT....

I thank God every day for my angels here, too....who not only understand, but support me and encourage me.

Again, great job! I'm cheering for you! Keep going.

BTW...no possibility that on that Wednesday night WH would pawn your kids off on OW, is there?? Scary...
And what's your WH's feeling about having more kids (if the rumours about the dr. boyfriend are correct)?

Marriage is FORSAKING ALL OTHERS...They should be supportive of your attempts to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE...You do not need to explain to those who cannot understand and respect the importance of your H and marriage to you...Express your appreciation for there care and concern and then carry on with your plan...This should NOT be your BIGGEST CHALLENGE...your BIGGEST CHALLENGE is combatting this affair...

Don't believe ONE WORD that the OW says..she is probably lying to your friend as you have already gathered...they do all that they can to COVER UP the affair...that's what makes it exciting for them...to keep it UNDERCOVER..I agree with Lex..that's what you need to do...EXPOSE...



EXACTLY!!!

I am just now back from business trip yesterday and last night.

Thanks for the encouragement! Just when we seem to have a good "talk", he pulls way back. There has been NO proactive communication from him at all this week,,,,just arrangement of kid schedules.

I did send email via blackberry yesterday,,, just a supportive note about him not getting too stressed about work (He had mentioned this the other day on the phone) and giving him encouragement on how he does such a great job & how everyone believes in him and he deserves that belief.

Sent another this am just to say good morning. No response to either.


That's normal, right? Just when you think you see a ray of hope, they disappear into the fog???

Sis - - No, I don't think there is a chance OW would watch kids,,,, thankfully she lives too far away!!

Yes, I do think my friend can provide on-going intel. She has connections with folks at their work so I am sure if anything is going on, she will hear about it one way or another. I am definately using her for intel, as well as using this channel for continued exposure work.

I know he was supposed to have IC yesterday afternoon, but do not know if he went or not. I go today at noon. It helps me, as my IC is supportive of me and where I am right now. I can use all of that I can get!

I called last night to talk to kids, but they were staying with friends of his overnight so he could make early am work meeting. I wasn't as pleasant or chatty as I could have/should have been,,,,,and was sorry I was rather short when I hung up the phone. After confirming the phone number for the friends house, I just said thanks, I'll give them a call. He was pulling into sitters to go ask them about looking for DSS cell phone. He told me he'd just been at "my house" looking for it - - looking EVERYWHERE. I will be interested to see what that means,,,, if it includes going thru my personal things like my journal. I keep it in my bedroom, where he would have no reason to be looking for DSS phone.

Actually, I don't know if him reading my journal would be a good or bad thing. It certainly outlines and supports everything I have been telling him. But, in his fog, I am sure he would not interpret it the right way.

Being out of town and away from kids/family is always lonely, but this trip just felt even more so. I have always made a point to go out to a nice dinner while traveling on business, even though I sit all alone - - - last night I was surrounded by couples who all looked so happy!! uggghh With WS having pulled so far away,,, not even a casual chat about daily goings on as we have been doing,,,, really got me down.

Ok - that's enough of having my own pity party! Time to buck back up and think of something nice to do when I see WS when he picks up DSS! Last weekend I burned a cd of songs that remind me of H, songs that meant something to us at one time or another, and gave it to him. Haven't heard another word on that. Was going to make another one, but am not sure about it yet.



Gotta run,,, work is screaming my name!

Just back from IC session and having hard time concentrating on "work" today.

Although she is ALWAYS a few minutes late, I really feel lucky to have my IC. She is very supportive of my Plan A path and helps me to further clarify my feelings and identify my NEEDS. I have never been good at saying "I need" & am really working on making that change.

Been reading LilSis' thread & loved the boob laughs! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Needed that a lot!

So - - the question has come up over there and I'm going to ask it here. What to do about the dreaded, pending, looming, VALENTINES Day? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My original thought was to send flowers or a "man basket" to his office - have it delivered. Two fold reason - 1., it's something he's done for me, but I've never done for him and 2. Entire office & OW will know about it and wonder what is up! Perhaps his marriage isn't as "over" as he may have lead them all to believe???

I bought 2 different cards WEEKS ago and have yet to decide which one to use and when to give it to him. His scheduled night to have the kids is WED, so I also need a plan of something to do that night so I'm not sitting all alone looking/feeling pathetic!

Any and ALL suggestions are welcome!