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Also...
As a result of the requirement for mutual cooperation in boundary failure...
It is generally true that BOTH parties fail to recognize or defend a boundary and both will allow their autonomy to be usurped AND will attempt to seize control of areas that do not belong to them.
Boundaries are something that you either understand or you do not.
If you do not it odds are good that you have been stomping around as though they do not exist...chances are also good that your partner is doing the same.
What happens when a person who does not recognize boundaries TRIES to cross the boundary of a person who does?
Nothing.
They will not be able to cross the fence. They are stuck on their own side.
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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And another thing...
So with that in mind it is easy to see how a claim can go either way.
A spouse may say "You are trying to control me" and be correct...you may very well be invading their territory.
On the other hand...what you may be doing is refusing to allow them to control YOU.
The only way to know for sure is to examine which side of the fence any issue falls on.
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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To me it is not a boundry if there isn't a consequence if you cross it.
Again you do not need an ultimatum to enforce the boundry.
It can be simple if you cross this boundry I will .....
IE if you flirt I will walk out and leave you there. Simple. I do not want to control her. I can control the respect she gives me. Her choice.
In almost every aspect of our lives we make choices like these.
By the way a boundry should be incrementally enforced IMVHO.
BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby
When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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BrambleRose and noodle -
I wanted to thank you both for taking time to share your insights on this topic. You have both stated much more eloquently and accurately what I was trying to drive at. I appreciate it, and I hope others can learn from it as well.
Formerly known as brokenbird
BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05
Second separation. Working on me.
If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
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FNM - By the way a boundry should be incrementally enforced IMVHO. I both agree and disagree with this. I think it depends on both on the boundary in question and the history. If you have someone who has consistently not enforced their boundaries in a relationship, things may get to the point where a very large enforcement (i.e., all out) is required. Under ideal conditions, yes, I think there's room in boundaries for incremental enforcement. But in some cases and/or with some boundaries, there can be only one enforcement.
Formerly known as brokenbird
BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05
Second separation. Working on me.
If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
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What do you mean by incrementally enforced..and what do you mean by should?
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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noodle ~ fantastic stuff.
frog ~ I remember a conversation I had with my brother who was very new to 12 step recovery and very new to understanding boundaries, and control and enabling... This conversation was years ago when I was deciding if I should take my husband back....
My brother said: "BR, if you let him come back now, he will experience no consequences for his behavior."
My reply, which still holds now, was: "Little brother, it is not my job to enforce consequences on my husband. My job is to decide what I will choose to allow or choose not to allow in my life. I need to decide what is best for ME, not what is best for him!"
And with that...my decision was made...and while on my 'pity party for BR' days I sometimes second guess my choice, a talk with my sponsor reminds me about choices, boundaries, and what I really have control over...
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Well noodle I can't clarify the word should LOL.
What I mean is that for me and again that is why I put IMVHO.
The first time the boundry is crossed (and hopefully the las time) the enforcement could be telling the person they crossed your boundry. In other words you did this I don't like being treated like that.
If the boundry is crossed again maybe you say the same thing in a angry tone. Then up to and including the dreaded ultimatum.
Lets use my sitch again. The first time my FWW did that I assumed she wasn't aware and told her I didn't like or approve. The second time I said it in an angrie tone. As she continued to cross the boundry I finally got our stuff and left and it was then I told her next time I would leave.
I didn't go straight to leaving her there.
BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby
When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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I see what you are saying but the basic point is..your boundaries and the consequences of them being crossed are about ~you~.
Leaving the situation may be a consequence.
So may puttng your fingers in your ears, puffing out your cheeks, and stomping your feet.
So may sitting in your car farting.
The biggest determiming factor in a boundary issue is the understand that YOU are the only person you control...and the only person you are responsible for.
So if you find it intolerable..you certainly CAN leave [using as one possible option only]...it gets haired up when you start thinking about HER REACTION to you leaving.
Then you are messing on her side of the fence and making reaction based choices and ~trying~ to be controlling and manipulative.
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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I hear people saying ENFORCE YOUR BOUNDARIES over and over. Maybe explaining what that would look like would make this WHOLE subject much more clear.
When I went into Plan B at the end of last year, I was enforcing my boundary of not being a part of a triangle. Consequences abounded, I was unable to see my H, I was unable to hold my family together, WH was unable to see me, come to his house, see his son, use his garage, see his dogs, etc. When WH breaks my Plan B, it is because 'I' am not enforcing my boundaries. I'm accepting his communication, for some reason or other.
When he had his initial A, I allowed him to continue it by not enforcing the very same boundary, by becoming a doormat (prior to finding MB, of course). I had no discernable boundary...
So, maybe a discussion of what ENFORCEMENT looks like will clear things up, instead of just trying to state what a boundary might be; HOW would a boundary be?
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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frog ~ If the boundry is crossed again maybe you say the same thing in a angry tone. Then up to and including the dreaded ultimatum. What you are describing are love busters. Angry outbursts and selfish demands are lovebusters - not boundry enforcement. As noodle points out - you can choose to do all of that. But all it will result in is a loss of love deposits in your spouses bank as a result of the LBs...and perhaps give you a temporary sense of control (which is illusionary) over someone else.
Last edited by BrambleRose; 01/30/07 07:10 PM.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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If you do not understand WHAT a boundary is...you can not successfully navigate and wield.
Let's break your thoughts down SL and see what we come up with.
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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boundary enforcement is removal of self away from toxic/dangerous stuff
~or~
removal of toxic dangerous stuff away from self
boundary enforcement is not another discussion or an arguement
boundary enforcement is an action
Pep
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~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Noodle,
Exactly!!! That part is simple my enforcement is personal in a sense. I am removing myself from the sitch. Or I am expressing to her that boundry is there to protect me!!!!
Now on her side we all know well and good she will probably be very angry that I left. That is not why I did it that is a consequence of me enforcing my boundry.
Again it gets messy here right. Because now she is mad at me for enforcing my boundry. I may have crossed her boundry because she crossed mine. LOL.
Which I am sure has happened in many M.
SL I love your entire post by the way.
BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby
When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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honest to God
I learned more about boundary enforcement from my PARENTING errors than I did from any other experience in my life
"incremental enforcement" ... means show where your weakness are
Pep
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parenting errors - omg yes.
My children could care less about threats. If i had a dime for every stupid time I said: "If you do that again, I'll do XYZ". Only to have them figuratively and sometimes literally thumb their noses at me because they could translate loud and clear that what I really said was: "Yes, go ahead, keep doing that, I'm not serious!"
They only behave when they understand that swift, immediate action will result in their crossing the line.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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I hear people saying ENFORCE YOUR BOUNDARIES over and over. Maybe explaining what that would look like would make this WHOLE subject much more clear.
I'll do my best
When I went into Plan B at the end of last year, I was enforcing my boundary of not being a part of a triangle.
OK. 1 Are you SURE that was ~your~ boundary or did you just think it should be? 2 Did going to plan B fail to enforce this? It looks like it worked. 3 The rest of your post looks as though rather than enforce a boundary around being unwilling to be in a tringulated relationship...you may have been making reaction based choices..trying to muck about on his side of the fence.
Consequences abounded, I was unable to see my H,
Correction...he was not willing to have a relationship with you on the terms that you told him you would accept.
I was unable to hold my family together
There are two adults making choices. You do not have the power or the authority to *hold* the family together.
, WH was unable to see me
He was not *willing* to meet your conditions.
,
come to his house, see his son, use his garage, see his dogs, etc.
All of these are again...his choice. You could not prevent him from doing most of this even if you wanted to. He was not willing to accept your terms.
When WH breaks my Plan B, it is because 'I' am not enforcing my boundaries. I'm accepting his communication, for some reason or other.
He can't break your plan B. You choose to break your own fence or you choose to defend it.
When he had his initial A, I allowed him to continue it by not enforcing the very same boundary, by becoming a doormat (prior to finding MB, of course). I had no discernable boundary...
Again I see that the very fist step is to understand what a boundary IS. Your post does not communicate to me a clear understanding of what belongs to you and what belongs to him.
Understand that you did not allow him to continue an A...you had no ability to make that choice. You allowed him to have BOTH a mistress and a wife. You can choose to remove yourself from that equation and there is NOTHING he can do to remove that choice.
So, maybe a discussion of what ENFORCEMENT looks like will clear things up, instead of just trying to state what a boundary might be; HOW would a boundary be?
Once you understand *what* ...*how* becomes a selection of choices that you can use willy nilly.
Unfortunately your question still seems to be how can I get him to want what I want.
That has nothing to do with boundaries.
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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but lest anyone misconstrue....one does not treat a spouse like a child while enforcing boundaries..
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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I removed myself from the triangle by entering Plan B. I consider that enforcement of my boundary to be in a M, and not in a threesome...
Now, say my H starts talking to some woman on the phone outside of business hours and I am uncomfortable with that (which happened to me). I stated that his R with this woman made me uncomfortable. He continues to talk to her. I state that I feel disrespected as he continues to talk with her. I am beginning to form a boundary about R outside my M. Sine this pains me, and will with ANYONE I marry, I have decided that this is a boundary--No personal R outside of M --goes both ways. If personal R occur, how to enforce this without throwing down the gauntlet?
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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