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Noodle, okay, let's discuss this a little.

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FH,

Obviously I can only speak for myself...

I believe evil exists.

Why? What makes the distinction that one behavior is "evil" and another is "good"? What is the "Measuring stick" that is applied regardless of any one individual's perspective, inclination, or choice?


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I'm less certain about morals...I may be misunderstanding you here.

You may be misunderstanding, and if so, that is because I was not sufficiently clear, so the problem is mine. A definition of terms is always essential to a discussion.

Where does Man's ability to understand "right from wrong," to establish and distinguish between "good moral behavior" and "bad moral behavior" that applies to all of mankind, regardless of individual beliefs or desires?

I submit, as a Christian, that it came from God in that we were created to have a personal relationship with a Holy God who has no evil in Himself, and that that relationship was to be based in love and submission of one's will to God' will, to trust God before all others.

God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and when Adam and Eve ate of the tree, in placing their will above God's will, they received as one of the consequences of that choice the KNOWLEDGE of evil and the knowledge of good AS DEFINED by God.

Since that fateful day, all humans have that "moral code" passed down to them. They have the knowledge, but lack the ability in themselves to choose, much less live, perfect lives devoid of any sin.

Humans try to "get close" to the Standard by applying things like the "Golden Rule," but that is not the same thing as living from birth to death devoid of ANY sin, simply because we are born with a sin-nature that is inclined to sin, not to good.



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I do think absolute truth exists but I also think it is impossible or at least very unlikely that I will ever grasp it or understand it fully. I doubt I will see the full and complete picture in my limited existence.

The "full and complete picture" of the "absolute truth" is Jesus Christ. We have that picture and we can see it. But we can't have that picture for ourselves BY ourselves. It is a gift that is given to us by God.

God bless.

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I read your reply. It's very hard for me to relate what you're saying to any meaning because I simply don't experience a life steeped in Christianity the way you do. The stuff you bring up that is undoubtably relevant and illustrative to you (and other Christains, perhaps) is generally confusing to me.

I think my efforts to understand tend to derail more threads than advance further discussion. I think the best thing to do is for me to continue to give my secular advice on situations and continue to read your take on situations without me commenting on the questions and confusion that sometimes arises. (It's not that I don't think you're willing to answer, you've always taken a lot of time to do so. It's that I don't think it's doing anyone any good.)

I wish you all the best life has to offer,

Mys

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[color:"red"]Pep[/color]...

Hello to you. Thanks for responding.

I did not NOT like what you said at all. I appreciate any feedback that offers me solutions because I am just plain stuck and have been for quite some time.

I am not looking to hear what I want to hear. I am looking for something I can use because I am completely dissatisfied with my situation and I have zero idea what I can do/stop doing to make it better, short of leaving the marriage.

As far as that option goes, I am afraid that by staying, I am simply trying to make what is an unacceptable situation acceptable and will continue to fail.

I am afraid that by choosing to leave, I will be seeing things as black/white and missing options and changes I could make within myself. What if I leave and it is a mistake? What if the there is some way that I could change/respond that could turn this ship around?

That said,

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"I will marry him."

Which informs your spouse where your boundary is set regarding honesty.


I know that I made this mistake. I know that I put myself in this position. What I don't know is what I can do about it today.

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I don't believe HONESTY is your number one EN. Do you know what is?


I am confused by your statement. I am not seeing what you see.

"What is an emotional need? It is a craving that, when satisfied, leaves you with a feeling of happiness and contentment, and, when unsatisfied, leaves you with a feeling of unhappiness and frustration."

I looked at all the other EN's. I don't see any that I would prefer over Honesty and Openness.

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apologies if I'm OT a bit from where this thread was headed, but I think I learn best with concrete examples and real-life scenarios

Anyone willing to give suggested language for communicating and enforcing boundaries? (I gave an example above of flirting)

(I wish I had the communication skills of schoolbus!)

thanks


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NTS,

I think you are actually OT with the intended direction of this thread.

Your flirting was a real life scenario for me in my M. It happened before the A, I believe it was a big factor in the A, and it continued after the A.

Her flirting was no longer acceptable to me.

So I stated to her that her flirting is not acceptable to me. It is disrespectful to me as a person for my W to act taht way.

The first time she crossed the boundry, I made her aware of it and asked her to not do it again. I pointed out it seems to happen at certain times and I would like her to be aware of it.

The next time it happened I did essentially the same thing in a more agitated tone.

It progressed to me just telling her it is time to leave and go home.

Finally I let her know that if she decided to do that again I would leave her wherever we were. She would be responsible for getting home on her own. I will not come back and get her.

So there it is for me. I stated my boundary. I decided how I would enforce it to protect my boundary. It worked for me.

Each situation can be different. Each boundary is different.


BS 38
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D Day 10/03
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3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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neverthesame

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For example, say you are married and no previous history of adultery for either spouse. One night at a dinner party your spouse begins to openly flirt with an attractive person. This bothers you a lot because it hurts your feelings, embarrasses you in front of the other guests, etc. It's the first time you've seen this type of behavior. You want to set a boundary that flirting is not ok with you. (By the way, I'm not in this situation at all, but I was in the past.)

"Flirting is not OK with you." is not a boundary. It's simply information.

A boundary consists of 2 main parts: 1.) a reference to what you're addressing (Flirting is not ok, it hurts my feelings.) and 2.) What you plan to do about it.

If you haven't come up with or communicated the "What you plan to do about it." portion then all you've done is given your spouse information about you -- like: "I like the color blue."

Before you communicate the boundary, you figure out what you think is reasonable and proper to protect yourself. What, exactly, do you mean by "not OK?" Do you mean that you'll be angry? Do you mean that you'll stop meeting your partner's EN's until you calm down? Do you mean you'll leave the party? Do you mean you won't agree to go to any more parties? Do you mean you'll file for divorce?

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Now assume that the flirting continues despite enforcement. Then what...

If the flirting continues, you execute your boundary. Your spouse can flirt. You do what you decided to do to protect yourself.

Maybe your boundary is that you won't worry about being rude in public if he flirts.

So you make direct statements during the 'flirtation' like: "I think that was an inappropriate thing to say and I don't believe either of you should have this conversation." or "Does your H know you're saying this to another man?" to make things uncomfortable the people around.

There doesn't need to be a lot of conversation around good boundaries. What really makes them effective is the action you take rather than the words you toss around.

If you say:

"Honey, it really hurts my feelings when I see you touching/telling dirty jokes/making innuendos/<whatever> other women at parties. I'm not willing to be hurt like this so next time it happens, I'm going to be really rude/leave without you/stop going/<whatever you've decided to do>."

Then, when it happens, don't talk about it. DO IT.

Mys

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Wow. Lots of good ideas and discussion going on here.

Something that seems to stand out (for me), is that boundaries are an expression of both an activity/action you are not willing to tolerate, and the reason why.

For example, "I will not abide a third party in our marriage. It drains my love for you and impedes my ability to be intimate* with you." could be a boundary. (* By intimacy, I mean emotional as well as physical.)

Stating that lets the other person know not just the what of the situation, but the why.

Whatever action I choose to take in response to a violation of my boundary needs to be centered on me, correct? Without an ulterior motive of trying to get the other person to do what I want/prefer them to do?

So would it be reasonable to say that when defining your boundaries, that you should also understand the why behind your boundary? I.e., why is this a boundary? What is the effect it has on me if it is crossed, and is it an effect I want or need to protect myself from?


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
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Lets look at the flip side of living with a boundary...

Mr. Ark has a boundary..that exists that we never have to discuss...and in theory he probably has only mentioned it once or twice in the fifteen years of marriage...

but I know it's there...\

here's a boundary that I live "under" in my marriage...

when we first got married...we both smoked....he quit...
I kept going...

I LOVED TO SMOKE>...
I was really good at it..
I could work the shift in the car.......drink coffee and smoke all at the same time.....

when I became pregnant I quit cold turkey....

the truth is I would still love to smoke now and then...(atleast I think I would)



Mr. Ark has said a few times...

I could never go back to living with someone who smokes..
I wouldn't be able to stand it....
he didn't argue with me
he didn't tell me I couldn't smoke...

and I know he is telling the truth...

If I were start smoking I truly believe that he would establish seperate households...

he doesn't care if anyone else smokes...
he's not on a anti-smoking campaign...
he just has decided that for him he will not ever live with someone that smokes....

there for the reason why I don't smoke anymore.....cause I miss it.(sometimes)..even with all the evidence out there...

I don't smoke because I truly believe that he would leave..
and I don't find this controlling
I don't find him making me do anything...

I just adore him enough...that I am not going to smoke...
and that is my main motivation for not do so..

because I want to stay married to him...more than I want to be seperated from him...

so it is actually very easy to NOT engage in the action that he can not tolerate...

there's no need for him and I to discuss this...

I could go on and on and on about my "right to smoke" blah blah blah...
and he'd listen and agree with everything I said...

then he'd move out...
and or take the kids the with him...

that's his boundary..
fair warned is fair game...

ARK

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love the "flip side"

this is really one way to "get it" is to see yourself come up against your spouse's boundary

Pep

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Good point.

I think it is an if then statement in a sense. If you do this then I will do that.

BTW in order for it to really be a boundry you have to do that.

Please reference Peps analogy about kids.

I am on the 15th level of the if then statement but he always gets the Then part.

I am at the point with him and boundries I am getting afraid there is not going to be a then left. LOL.

I might have to lend him out for manual labor cause that's all I have left.

So if it keeps going that way in our home and you live in the So Cal area let me know.

Son if you keep not doing your homework then you will be doing manual labor for the rest of your life so I am going to show you how that will be. Hey pep you need any yardwork done. LOL.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


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Son if you keep not doing your homework then you will be doing manual labor for the rest of your life so I am going to show you how that will be.

I don't think this can be a boundary. You're basically telling a kid that you'll impose consequences if he doesn't do what you tell him you think he should. Boundaries are about defining oneself. If you decide that you will not do your childs homework - then you won't, and he'll have to suffer the consequences of not doing it if he decides not to. You're not protecting him from the consequences of his actions (or lack of action) by doing something that you decide is not in your character.

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[color:"red"] Froz [/color]

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I am afraid that by choosing to leave, I will be seeing things as black/white and missing options and changes I could make within myself. What if I leave and it is a mistake? What if the there is some way that I could change/respond that could turn this ship around?


the "what if" mind game causes undue anxiety to ones self

what I was taught is

when you say "what if" and then you STOP there it raises anxiety...

finish the sentence what if (blah blah blah) ... then I would ..... task needing to be done

Pep

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I think DISCIPLINE differs from personal boundaries.

There must be expectation for a child to do their homework, or they would never do it. I know if I didn't get off of my butt and go back to the lab and do some benchwork, I wouldn't get paid, and prolly lose my job. That's a consequence of my decision to not work.

NOW, if my boss fires me due to lack of work, that is the organizations boundary being enforced...no work, you get fired.


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Possibly a moment of clarity for me.

A boundary is a fence that establishes what is ok and not ok for me. What I will allow in and what I will not. Also it simply establishes what is mine and what is not.

I realized something it provides.

It removes fear.

When I say “I will not participate in X” I am stating my boundary and as long as I truly mean it, then I have removed my fear of what will happen if the boundary is crossed. No consequence. It is not my job nor my property to provide consequence. It is my job to control ME, so if I state a boundary and it is crossed, I have the tool in place to enforce my boundary.

I can not control others so I should not fear what they may or may not do. If they do it, that is life, and I have my boundary to protect me. I may not like what has happened, but I have my boundary and that is that.

Take a relevant situation here.

I had an A. froz certainly did not like it but she has chosen to marry me anyway and here we are. So what is an appropriate boundary? I think it would be “I will not stay married to you if you have an affair again” Plainly stated. Now, she has nothing to fear because she doesn’t have to sit in “what am I going to do” land. She knows. She is leaving me. Now, she may certainly not like having to leave me. But often times everyone has to do things they don’t like in order to protect themselves from the ‘evil’ actions of others. That said, there is no reason to fear because a PLAN is stated and only must be followed in the case of boundary infringement.

So IF she states that as her boundary AND I want to NOT have her enforce it, then I will NOT have an affair. Pretty simple.

Now, if she is afraid that I might have an affair, then possibly her boundary is not something she really means to enforce and therefore is not really a boundary at all.

Imposing a consequence on someone is about them. Enforcing a boundary is about me. Possibly I have a boundary about yelling. I will not be yelled at. If I am yelled at, because I don’t like being yelled at, then I will simply walk out of the room and remove myself from the situation. When the yelling is over, I would be willing to re-engage in talking but not until then. Does that seem like a good boundary and plausible enforcement?

I am not articulating this very well… maybe noodle can help me, but I ‘feel’ like the right answer is a boundary removes fear. If I state a boundary and it gets crossed, I don’t fear, because I KNOW what I am going to do about it. But, I would have to remain mindful of ‘revenge’ like behavior and making the person ‘earn’ the right to talk to me again. Making them.. is about them and not something I can do. I can control me all the time, if I so choose. So if they push a boundary, no need to fear. I know what I am going to do and that something is about protecting me. Not about making them pay.

Maybe I have something here?

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[color:"red"]Pep [/color],

Will you help me?

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[color:"red"]Pep [/color],

Will you help me?

sure
when you figure out your top 3 ENs ... let me know

I can't help you if you don't know enough about yourself

here is a true story about my boundary setting

WH was full of remorse after D day, and willing to have NC immediately ... my boundary (as advised by therapist) .. . was stated thus:

"In order to live together, I will require you to attend AA meetings."

H responded: "I've stopped drinking."

Pep: "Let me know when you've decided to attend AA meetings, Until then, we will not live together."

he made his choice to go to AA & stay there
either way was acceptable to me
one was prefered
but both were acceptable

Pep

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Honesty and Openness
Conversation
Affection

I have chosen relationships in the past with men who did not meet these, my 3 top emotional needs. They are the things that, when met, make me feel the most cared for and loved.

If you decide to continue our conversation, how would you feel about talking somewhere else?

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Noodle, okay, let's discuss this a little.

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FH,

Obviously I can only speak for myself...

I believe evil exists.

Why? What makes the distinction that one behavior is "evil" and another is "good"? What is the "Measuring stick" that is applied regardless of any one individual's perspective, inclination, or choice?

I believe evil exists because I have experienced it and my reaction was to think *evil*.

I believe that ultimately God decides what is good and what is evil. I believe he has the power and authority to do this and set the standard.



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I'm less certain about morals...I may be misunderstanding you here.

You may be misunderstanding, and if so, that is because I was not sufficiently clear, so the problem is mine. A definition of terms is always essential to a discussion.

Where does Man's ability to understand "right from wrong," to establish and distinguish between "good moral behavior" and "bad moral behavior" that applies to all of mankind, regardless of individual beliefs or desires?

I submit, as a Christian, that it came from God in that we were created to have a personal relationship with a Holy God who has no evil in Himself, and that that relationship was to be based in love and submission of one's will to God' will, to trust God before all others.

God created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and when Adam and Eve ate of the tree, in placing their will above God's will, they received as one of the consequences of that choice the KNOWLEDGE of evil and the knowledge of good AS DEFINED by God.

Well that's certainly a possibility isn't it. I have generally used the term "knowledge" in the old testament sense meaning that you are intimate with it. To have knowledge of evil and good rather than just be aware that God has said somethign is evil or something is good.

Since that fateful day, all humans have that "moral code" passed down to them. They have the knowledge, but lack the ability in themselves to choose, much less live, perfect lives devoid of any sin.

Sounds like a pretty solid hypothesis.

Humans try to "get close" to the Standard by applying things like the "Golden Rule," but that is not the same thing as living from birth to death devoid of ANY sin, simply because we are born with a sin-nature that is inclined to sin, not to good.



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I do think absolute truth exists but I also think it is impossible or at least very unlikely that I will ever grasp it or understand it fully. I doubt I will see the full and complete picture in my limited existence.

The "full and complete picture" of the "absolute truth" is Jesus Christ.

Uhm...I'm not disagreeing that this is true...I am saying that as far as practical application goes it's about as clear as mud.

I can actually SEE the person...I can't always hear him...when I do I'm taking it on faith that it isn't me having delusions...the amount of space provided in the new testament is miniscule and second person...we see others seeing Christ and everything gets filtered thorugh their limited perspective also.


We have that picture and we can see it. But we can't have that picture for ourselves BY ourselves. It is a gift that is given to us by God.

Maybe you have a better flashlight than I do. I get snippets, flashes and images..not entire revelations complete with exposition.

God bless.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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Honesty and Openness
Conversation
Affection

I have chosen relationships in the past with men who did not meet these, my 3 top emotional needs. They are the things that, when met, make me feel the most cared for and loved.

[b]Would you see a doctor who was dishonest with you?

If the answer is "NO"

why would you date/marry someone you knew was dishonest? What's in it for you?

there MUST be another higher priority need in order for you to ignore obvious dishonesty

figure that one out

carry it over to my EN thread....

Pep

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Possibly a moment of clarity for me.

Love those.

A boundary is a fence that establishes what is ok and not ok for me. What I will allow in and what I will not. Also it simply establishes what is mine and what is not.

Sounds good to me.

I realized something it provides.

It removes fear.

OK

When I say “I will not participate in X” I am stating my boundary and as long as I truly mean it, then I have removed my fear of what will happen if the boundary is crossed. No consequence. It is not my job nor my property to provide consequence.

I might say no punishment..I do think boundaries create consequences...if I leave a conversation and someone is angry about it...that's a consequence. Consequences can be good too. I am not being verbally abused as a consequence of enforcing my boundaries. It's splitting hairs though really. Semantics. From where I'm standing you do seem to have the general picture.

It is my job to control ME, so if I state a boundary and it is crossed, I have the tool in place to enforce my boundary.

I agree that it is your job to control you. So DO you actually have the tool in place to defend any given boundary?

I can not control others so I should not fear what they may or may not do.

I tend to fear it anyway. Your mileage may vary. I don't like unpleasant consequences and I never look foreward to the possiblity or probability that I'm about to experience some.

If they do it, that is life, and I have my boundary to protect me. I may not like what has happened, but I have my boundary and that is that.

Yes...boundaries do provide some measure of protection because what you do..who you interact with and to what degree is all your choice.

Take a relevant situation here.

ok

I had an A.

True.
froz certainly did not like it but she has chosen to marry me anyway and here we are.

True.

So what is an appropriate boundary?

Is there an appropriate boundary? Who decides what is appropriate? I would say there are two people and two sets of personal boundaries.

I think it would be “I will not stay married to you if you have an affair again” Plainly stated.

That might be one boundary. I don't know if it IS but it works as an example.

Now, she has nothing to fear because she doesn’t have to sit in “what am I going to do” land. She knows. She is leaving me. Now, she may certainly not like having to leave me. But often times everyone has to do things they don’t like in order to protect themselves from the ‘evil’ actions of others. That said, there is no reason to fear because a PLAN is stated and only must be followed in the case of boundary infringement.

How does having a boundary remove fear? Fear is associated with pain and loss...having THAT particular boundary will not protect her against pain and loss will it? An affair would be in the past tense by the time that boundary came into play.

So IF she states that as her boundary AND I want to NOT have her enforce it, then I will NOT have an affair. Pretty simple.

Most things are relatively simple. It assumes a lot though...this example. It assumes that she believes that her boundary will be respected and it assumes that she believes that you want to be there enough to just say no.

Now, if she is afraid that I might have an affair, then possibly her boundary is not something she really means to enforce and therefore is not really a boundary at all.

It may also mean that several other boundaries are not being successfully enfored. If we can see that there are weak spots in the fence we haven't got a lot of faith in it's ability to offer protection, right?

Imposing a consequence on someone is about them. Enforcing a boundary is about me. Possibly I have a boundary about yelling. I will not be yelled at. If I am yelled at, because I don’t like being yelled at, then I will simply walk out of the room and remove myself from the situation. When the yelling is over, I would be willing to re-engage in talking but not until then. Does that seem like a good boundary and plausible enforcement?

It sounds good to me. Consistency and immediate withdrawl would be an important element.

I am not articulating this very well… maybe noodle can help me, but I ‘feel’ like the right answer is a boundary removes fear. If I state a boundary and it gets crossed, I don’t fear, because I KNOW what I am going to do about it. But, I would have to remain mindful of ‘revenge’ like behavior and making the person ‘earn’ the right to talk to me again. Making them.. is about them and not something I can do. I can control me all the time, if I so choose. So if they push a boundary, no need to fear. I know what I am going to do and that something is about protecting me. Not about making them pay.

Maybe I have something here?

Sounds like several somethings.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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