Big K,you're talking about my H's letter?

this part bugged me big time:

"I know that you probably think that everything here in >city< is easy for me - but you are wrong. It is far from easy."

my (then) thought was along the lines of ~~~> who CARES if you're having a hard time ... I'M DYING inside ... I was not giving HIS comfort level one single second of my thoughts ... I was (I thought) about to die.

the other thing he said that sent me into more of a rage was:

"I've made up my mind."

my (then) thought was ~~~> Oh yeah? Well guess what mister, this decision is now OUT OF YOUR HANDS ... am I supposed to be ~grateful~ you've made up your mind??? I thought you'd made up your mind when we got married !!! A-hole

you can see what an UPhill battle my H had ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

plus ... all the "I love you" stuff ... I TOLD him over the phone NOT to say "I love you" because he had been telling OW "I love you" for 2 years, and now those words out of his mouth were garbage thrown at my feet!!!!
His "ILY" was counterfeit currency in my love bank.

..... SEE how useful MB forum would have been for me/us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I really had him backed into a damned if you do and damned if you don't corner.

BUT, we made it ... he managed to win me over irregardless of my hardhead <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

the POINT I want to make is

no matter how sincere the words sound

it's the ACTIONS that count

take actions to the love bank and the deposits add UP

Pep

Interesting..because I was feeling somewhat JEALOUS, probably unduly, that my H almost never WRITES me letters...

The most he has done over the years has been to send cards with picture collages..much like Sis is doing...

He, himself, has SAID: "GO BY MY ACTIONS NOT MY WORDS"...he's in sales so he does know how to do the BULLCRAP with his WORDS...

So, for me, during RECOVERY and even now, my H DOES things for me to EXPRESS himself...if I watch his ACTIONS CLOSELY, I can EASILY pick up on what he is SAYING...This is a lesson that I have learned through all of this and I have even told our sons this about him...

I was going to ask you what you think this is all about, Schoolbus ...or others...

I've read, though, that this is TYPICAL FOR MEN..that we, as women, want to TALK THINGS OUT, where men prefer ACTION.

When we are having some sort of conflict, I have learned to say directly to him, "I need for you to hear me...it helps me feel better to TALK about it"...so he has learned to do more of this himself without feeling anxious about the TALKING or expression of his feelings...The change in him evident just last night. I was "bothered" by something he did and he knew it and, surprisingly, he said (and I am smiling about this now): "Do you want to TALK about it?" as a means of helping me to feel better..so cute now that I think about it....

I betcha... today that he will... DO SOMETHING...to symbolize or to express his feelings about the issues at hand last night...usually it's a gift..something whimsical, inexpensive and/or YUMMY...

SBus,

I have been fascinated by your insight on the LilSis thread. You recently posted that the MB theories are consistent with your knowledge of communication (e.g., we think about what we talk about, and vice versa, and our actions follow - hope I got that right) I'm hoping you have a minute to respond to some questions I had...

I was wondering...how does Plan B look from a communications perspective? How does the lack of regular, positive attention from the BS affect the WS in the short versus the long term? (not all Plan B's lead to recovery)

Plan B reminds me a little of the "Love Must Be Tough" advice to "open the cage door" and let someone free as opposed to trying to hang onto them. I remember hearing similar things from people in a committed or even dating relationship, such as "don't pursue" or "don't chase," because this tends to drive the less-interested party away. Sometimes I find the concepts contradictory. On the one hand, regular attention and showing love/care/admiration builds up the Love Bank, but on the other hand showing too much (groveling) and not being confident/emotionally independent can be a relationship killer. So, how does all this look from your point of view?

Also, I'm curious, if you believed someone was lying to you, but you weren't sure, what would you do/ask to determine if the person was being honest? I often just ask the question again at a later time and see if the answer is different. Not very clever, I realize, but I have a hard time knowing when people are lying.

Any time you have is appreciated. Thank you!!!!!

mimi,
The fact that your husband is a salesman is probably one reason why he tells you to look for his actions and not listen to his words. I say this because he uses words all day long to sell things, and says things that he may not fully believe in - and it may be his expectation that verbal communication from most people follow this same pattern. That is, people do not necessarily believe what they are saying, and he has to see it to believe it. So, he wants you to see his actions as backing up what he is saying. That would be my guess.

Never the same,
You ask some good questions. I have thought about Plan B myself, in terms of communication and cognition. I think if Plan B follows a good Plan A, then what happens is that the WS has been set into the cycle of thinking about his/her marriage, and recovery. There is a theory that the brain becomes somewhat "patterned" after about a three week period of a repeated given activity (again, this is very watered down theory for purposes of this forum). I suspect that with a good Plan A, that the pattern of thought has been established, and because it is there would continue after the BS stopped contact. It may even escalate, given that the focus now becomes "why isn't BS calling me?" etc. The BS may not be the generator of the thought - it becomes intrinsic to the WS, and has a life of its own.

BTW, the 3 week theory can be used for weight loss, smoking cessation, and lots of other good stuff.....

Anyway!

The groveling issue becomes entangled in the actual communicative style and interaction events of the BS and WS. If the BS fails to present him/herself as strong and the interactions during Plan A deteriorate to what I would call "begging" type interactions, then yes, this could be a relationship killer. Plan A has to keep the BS in the position of equality, strength, and respectability in the relationship, and avoid the pitfalls that would enter the groveling/begging arena at all costs.

Finally, if I think someone is lying to me, I use many different techniques. It depends on the person! With men, I tend to look directly in their eyes, and call them on it, straight out. I might say, "Do you actually expect me to believe that?" You wouldn't believe the responses I have gotten - and nearly without exception they have spilled out with the truth.

With particularly difficult liars, I use other techniques. I ask more and more questions, seemingly trivial, such as how they felt about the event, what someone was wearing, and on and on and on. I get them worn out, and ultimately you can tell the lies are piling up, because their stress level rises and they want to run away!

Cunning liars are tough, because they plan things. These are the people like LisSis's RT. She put something in her writing, though, that told on herself. She said, "I HAVE THE POWER. (just kidding)." The fact that she put the "just kidding" in there told on her big-time. This is a pre-planned out - she told him what she wanted to say, and then gave herself an escape hatch at the same time. This way, later on, if he ever brings it up, she can point to the "just kidding" and say that she meant it as a joke. But everyone knows otherwise. Best way to catch these people is to call them on it at the time they say it - and say, "I don't think you weren't kidding." as seriously as you can, and address it at that exact moment. You can't do this as easily in written communication, but if this happens to me, I am prompt at my response to it.

Watch for liars to say either way too much, with odd details, or way too little without enough information to make any sense of things.

That's off the top of my head. Hope it helps!


SB

SB, your information on liars is quite interesting. My H has lied so much in the past three years and I always *feel* it but cannot always pinpoint it. Almost to the point of thinking I am crazy. I have found confidently saying I know the truth will prompt him to spill. How to exude that confidence eludes me at times.

Thanks for sharing.

Schoolbus,

That was fantastic (and I'm not joking). Thank you.

just a few follow-up questions ... any suggestions on how Plan A behavior/words (or even just meeting ENs in general, not just after DDay) can maintain a sense of strength/equality/etc without being viewed by the recipient (especially a WS) as "begging"/weakness.

Also, if the Plan A BS is brining up issues like family, commitment, etc, and the WS feels pressured or guilty by that, isn't that causing the WS to distance him/herself? I'm just trying to fit in all the pieces of the puzzle. It sometimes seems like the BS has to perform a very intricate dance on a high wire.

Also, if you think someone has lied to you, or at least not told you the full truth (which I think is lying), does the failure to confront it cause the liar to lose respect for you and/or do it more often? I'm thinking of WS who lie about their "late night meetings" and BS who, in Plan A, doesn't question/challenge/LB. I suppose this question could apply to any bad behavior.

Thanks. I realize you have other things to do. Maybe you should give seminars!

Pep - I understand for sure how you felt - he didn't understand the dynamics of the relationship had changed but it doesn't make his letter less genuine.

Schoolbus could you check out the e-mail I sent my WH today. It's on my thread about e-mailing and needing help.
I'm starting to think it wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Thanks
SH01

Never the same,

The difference in communicating desires to reconcile and groveling would come down to some word choices, and how you are presenting things. For example, I would NOT advise you to say things like "PLEASE, come home" or requests in that manner. Asking outright isn't what is needed, because the WS knows you want him to come home. Asking isn't changing that situation. Repeating it becomes groveling - do you see what I mean? Instead, the Plan A that MB advises really does meet the situation head on. That is, your actions show love and encouragement to return to the marriage. When you talk to the WS, it should be more in statements of HOW things would be better, how you have changed, the things you have recognized that were weaker and could be stronger, etc. Pleading to come home isn't the route, because it is a "yes-no" response requirement - yes I will, or no I won't. And in the situation of separation, you need to get to the point where the decision to CONSIDER coming home is being weighed. So talk about what ACTIONs could be put into place, what you have already done, and what the two of you could accomplish together.

Also, be careful not to talk about how hurt and needful you are. This also translates into groveling - you are essentially telling the WS that you are needy, and need the WS to fulfill you, and makes them view you as though you can't be a person on your own - and a WS isn't in the position to work to fill your love bank up, they want YOU to fill THEIRS.

If you are in Plan A and do not question a late night out, then that isn't a good idea. You should not be a doormat.

The idea of talking about commitment and family being related to bringing up the reaction of guilty feelings in the WS is just a part of what the WS is doing. The natural consequences of being wayward is that you will feel guilt over what you are doing (hurting the family, betraying your commitments). In Plan A, the interactions should include the consequences - so if your WS feels the consequences of the guilt, I would say, GOOD. Then Plan A is working. Let him feel bad about what he's doing, he ought to.

Pep and Big K,

Pep's FWH's letter was BOTH genuine, and still hedging. It can be both!

He meant every word he said.

The undertone I got was that he wasn't sure what Pep's reaction would be so he kept some guard up and that his Taker was still in play (the "it's hard here" part). Both show he wasn't fully over the fence. But definitely he was moving in Pep's direction.

He still had something to talk about, but wasn't doing it in that letter. Probably came later on.

He wasn't lying - he loved her, realized he needed to go home, and wanted to. Just at that point, wasn't sure how to iron out the kinks; he was willing to hang in for the long run, though.

People can be honest and sincere, but still leave the undertones. Doesn't make them liars, or deceitful at all! The undertones are the real emotions, often fears in letters like these, that show through. Other kinds of writings would show other emotions - but they aren't necessarily dishonest either. (Unless, of course, they are written by lawyers or politicians.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BWhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, in analyzing the veracity of a politician's speech, just reverse every statement, and you are closer to the truth.


"No new taxes." - G. Bush. 41
"Yes, new taxes" is what he meant.

"I never had sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky." - B. Clinton
"I had sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky, and because I specifically named one woman, the fact is that I also had sex with other women as well and named this specific one in this specific lie so as to be more specific about my lie, so if it ever comes up in court I have my lie of escape already planted right now." is what he meant.

See how this can work for you????? It can be quite useful in the upcoming election season. I can hardly wait......the a-ha moments to come........maybe we need a "prediction" thread here - let's predict the lies!

SB

love da *snark*

Schoolbus you crack me up. LOL

Thank you very much for taking a look at my situation. Getting to the point is so hard for me for so many reasons, all that I will be working on. I can see clearly how that would make everything much easier. My main problem with my husband is lying and withdrawling. Every time I expressed a feeling he would either agree with anything and everything I said or just withdrawl completely so I have not wanted to express any feeling about anything for a long time. I felt like I was in the relationship by myself. Now I have decided to stand up for a new standard of relationship. No more will I allow him to abandon me emotionally. This is where boundaries are coming into the picture. Setting healthy boundaries is proving to be quite the challenge.

I like what you say about coming first. Simple as that. We have in-laws that have caused more of a problem than the porn and we are at a place now where I can say no more. This cannot continue. He is at a place where he wants that to change too.

I am truly on the fence about the divorce. I titled my post that way because I did not feel like I was getting anywhere and did not know how else to express how I was feeling. Got a rise that I was not expecting. :-/ So I am in the limbo of seperation world and how I feel is I hate it! God is working me over for patience. My husband and I have talked twice this weekend with both conversations going very well. I am not sure how I feel about it all at this point. Scared, hurt that it is coming about after all this time of him refusing to participate, anger of course, and more fear. I do have hope though because no matter what happens we will not ever have a relationship like we did.

THanks again.

GH,

You don't WANT a relationship like you had before.

You need to think about the kind of marriage you WANT, and decide if your husband is the man who can be in that marriage with you.

I suggest you call the Harleys, and get some advice. They are the professionals, and will probably give you more clarity than anybody else on your situation.

Hang in there!
SB

Thank you. I will call them and try to work on my own growth. There is plenty to work on right now.

Hey Schoolbus,

Will you take a look at the e-mail SD just got from his WW?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=0&fpart=15

~ Marsh

The other day on Eav's "Rude..etc." thread she said that she was gonna stop posting and even try to remove her Screen name...Yuck... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />