Thank you Owl and that is exactly what I have been saying although she thinks I read too much, Not only here but of every book and website. She says that I take what I read and hear the way I want to see it.

You know the way things were going just before I got the letter from her lawyer was that I really was getting a life.
Spending time w/ family and friends, The kids after work etc and was kind of dark.

It was the night I was going to take them to dinner alone where her epihany happened. I would do it more but I have also been trying to conserve money just in case.

I have still been paying the full mortgage, utility bill, cable bill along with my personal bills so I have tried to conserve but maybe if I was doing more alone with them, Not home when she gets home although leaving a note where we are and doing the things I was that it may shake things up again.

I don't believe there is any significant cost difference.
The filing feels are the same (at least in california).
Lawers dont charge any less for "working on a legal separation" vs "working on a divorce".

You fight over ALL THE SAME THINGS in a legal separation, as a divorce.
Property, child custody, etc, etc. You even use the same legal forms!

If you're gonna fight it in a divorce, you're gonna fight it in a separation.
(or you SHOULD... 'cause if you dont, and you agree to something "just becuase it's a separation"... she can then turn around, refile for divorce, and she will probably get everything you agreed to in the legal separation. Some evil people do this. dont fall into that trap)


The main legal difference at the end of a divorce vs a legal separation, is that after one of them, you get to check the "single[]" box on forms, and the other, you don't.

In NY there are really no fees per se for a LS and you technically don't even have to file it w/ the courts - Although it is suggested. There is a small fee associated if you want to file it with the court.

Yes - I do understand about the marital status, Also it isn't mandatory that I relinquish and financial info unless I am served w/ a summons for D and the plaintiff has to pay for a process server, If she is asking for a LS then I am under no obligation to respond, It may make her angry but to me it's not giving up. Retainers are higher b/c of the the possibilty of one contesting.

Usually it is an agreement between 2 people to S whereas a D you can file for fault - At least thats what I understand.

I feel like it is a cake eating manuever at best to see many things, If she is still involved with the EA I am a safety net which doesn't make me feel good, Finanially I am a safety net also but we would still be better off financially if we were together as well as not hurting the children needlessly, A LS doesn't do anything but drag things out longer.

Also for religious reasons she may not want to file for D b/c she was told that she could possibly be excommunicated although I don't see that as big issue right now b/c she has not been to church in several weeks, She has only gone 2 Sat.s recently but that was to help her sister clean.

Her mother and sister are very active in the church and in Nov and Dec MIL told me that she had hoped for everyone that we could work this out and for both of us to stop thinking of ourselves and start thinking of our children.

Apart there are 2 households etc but if she found it was still hard to live a certain life she could come back.

By making it hard for her to get a LS it may seem like a control issue but as I said a S only benefits one person and that is my W and if she feels she is done w/ the M then it shouldn't matter if we S or D - Reconcilliation can happen either way but I am not going t be a party to making it easy.

If we did move to D then I would be able to counter things concerning all issues and say that even though I was willing to seek counseling etc that W was adamant and I have read of cases where judges ordered MC before moving forward.

As I have said I have taken responsibilty for the issues I have brought to the M and want to right them, I have asked what would make her feel safe to attempt to rebuild so I cannot see how adding financial stress on top daily responsibilities to our children and jobs that being apart could do our M any good, To the contrary I think it could be detrimental.

I wasn't given a copy of what she was asking for, But found out and I will not give in to those if she wants to try and get those things then ask for them in a D and let someone settle them.

Have you exposed to the church, and asked them to counsel her on her continuing her immoral relationship? They can put tremendous strain on her to end her affair if they know about it...take it to the church leaders, and do it in a spirit of love. Tell them that you're NOT looking to get her into trouble...that you're asking their assistance in saving your marriage, and in getting your wife out of that sin.

"accidentally" read further back in your thread, and noticed something.


you wrote to her that, " I knew what I felt and saw from here on Mon was real - Nobody could fake that - It was my W and not an alien"


I would suggest that you refrain in the future from telling her whether her feelings are real or not :-/

She's gonna do what she's gonna do. you cant "stop her" from filing. You cant force her to stay, either. "fighting" a legal separation or divorce, doesnt make her stay. It sounds like you want to say you "want to fight for your marriage", but I'm not sure that telling her you'll "fight a S or D" is the best way to communicate that.

Maybe the next time she brings up S vs D, you might consider telling her that it's up to her to file whatever she thinks is right; but you do not think it is the right thing for you to be either separated, or divorced.

That being said, there WAS someone who posted recently, something like,
"if my (ex) husband told me that he loved me, but loved me enough to let me go, and just [do the separation], i would have stayed with him. But he didnt, so we're divorced.".

Ok, that may have been true for HER. but I think most women, hopefully, wouldnt feel like that.
Do you really want to be with a person who will stay with you, only if you tell them to leave you? To me, that's playing majorly twisted mind games, that do not belong in a marriage to start with.

There's a difference between stating,
"i love you; i'd like you to stay; however, i recognize that it is your choice whether to stay or go. ",
and
"I love you, so I'm going to enthusiastically support us pretending like we're divorced for a while".

i don't think the second, is healthy.

Owl,
Yes I did expose to the church a week after I exposed to my family and hers, All it did was add to her saying that it was a control thing again. The pastor we were talking to did try to help but all that did was force her deeper into her shell.

She has never admitted anything to anyone and continues to say they are/were just friends and that it is all my fault that she isn't sure about working on the M.

Before my stupid antics in early Jan. I had a lot of support but now it seems like everything is on life support.

W stopped talking to everyone about anything to do w/ our R/M or so she says. She has always been stubborn and part of me thinks she thought I would just give in or maybe she wants to control everything.

I tried everything the Pastor suggested but W sabotaged every effort.

She was originally the one who sought out his help in early Nov. but when he suggested we work on things and refusing to ok an S or D she wanted no part of anything. At the time I was a non practicing Catholic but converted and was baptized not only for our M but also our children whom I always supported that since my W attended church regularly that they be raised in the faith she was accustomed to.

Since this all started I was honest w/ IL's, church, C's we saw about everything I brought to this M - It wasn't until Dec. that I exposed anything I believed concerning an EA.

I said to my W that I was completely honest w/ everyone so that she would have some sort of safety that it couldn't go back to the way things were, I was also willing to do more to attempt to build a new life and leave the old M behind.

bump, so that you notice I posted at the same time you did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Techie, Yes I wrote that here concerning how she felt, I don't think I put it quite that way to her but I see your point.

Yes I understand she is going to do what she needs to do and I cannot stop her from that, But I don't feel that I can just give her a LS just b/c she wants one, If she really wants out of the M than she will have to do more.
I should say that I am fighting for my M instead of fighting her for an S or D.

I guess I am a little confused about the last part, But heres my take, She can do what she has to do for herself.
I cannot stop her but I don't have to enable her to make it easy to walk away from everything.

Part of me thinks that she would have thought that I would be sick of everything by now and thrown in the towel, I cannot for many reasons.

I have offered her a few for lack of a better term "controlled" separations if it truly is about her finding things out but she seems to want to have everything and even though she never admitted to anyone that her "friendship" was improper it put us in a worse place than our M was ever in before her "friendship" and for that I still have to fight for my M and family.

I just sent an email to the Harleys, Stating I had spoken with them twice on air in Nov and Dec of 2006 and read both books that were sent to me.

Also of my successes and failures more of the latter it seems concerning my situation and will be calling the program tomorrow.

The letter was long but I had been instructed by the producers when I called previously to give a detailed email so they can talk to me. W says she will see a MC but fear she wants to put me in a badlight not that in some ways I don;t deserve to be there but I want their oopinion if they think telephone counseling would work or can they refer me to someone in my area.

As I have said, I understand my wifes concerns and understand where she could be hopefully we still have a chance.

I did not bring up much of anything other than what I previously told them concerning my W's "friendship" and as big of an issue as that is - I do know I have to be able to show her that I want our M to feel safe, fulfilling and satisfying to both.

I would have set something up with SH but my wife knows a litle about MB and has been nonchalant about things so I wanted their opinion which would be better.

I spoke on air with the Harley's today and I can see where Dr. Harley is coming from, The issues I brought to our marriage are hard to make my W feel safe and even though she got involved in her EA and the way she has been acting these last few months. I now have to take and address my issues completely to make her feel safe.

Dr. Harley said in our case a S may actually do us good but I am thinking I cannot live in limbo so I have written something I am thinking of giving my W.

Feel free to offer advice, I am still going to see how I feel after the weekend before I give it to her.

The Things You Need:

I guess this is it, I have been thinking alot since Wed night and have decided that I cannot fight for someone or something that is one sided by that I mean me wanting to work things out and you wanting to find yourself or figure things out.

I thought if I held on long enough that I could have shown a better me but the only thing I have done is reinforce some of the opinions you hold of me and now comes the hard part, As much as I love and care for you and would do almost anything for you the only thing I cannot do is give you a separation and it isn't because of me trying to stick it to you but rather for the both of us.

I cannot give you a separation but I will not contest or fight a divorce if we can resolve major issues, The kids and visitation, child support and a few other things and my reasons for doing this is because for so long I had hoped we could at some point in time find our way back to each other and make a marriage that we both wanted but in these last few days I have come to the conclusion that I cannot remain in limbo any longer, A separation is no different than a divorce really except for the fact that we won't have to go through things twice if we don't reconcilliate and if one or both of us chooses to make a new life somewhere down the road we wont be holding each other or anyone elses life up like ours have been for the last few months.

As I have said I love you, the kid's and us as a family but if we are to be apart than maybe this way is best and both of us can begin a healing process, I would hope that you could remain in the house for another school year so that A. can finish off in Buck Heights but after that I understand if you want to sell and really I think that house and other influences in both of our lives have kind of brought us to point we find ourselves with all the demands and pressures.

I guess some of the reasons for my actions can be attributed to the fact that I really had some issues concerning my self esteem as well as self doubt and needed reinforcement or assurance that I was a good person and that probably weighed too heavily on both of us.

I do feel that even thought there were times when you may have doubted the true depth of my love for you that you did know that I did and do love you. My kids mean the world to me and all I want is for them to succeed in life, to be happy and healthy and if this gives them a chance to live a little more peacefully than it will be worth it.

In many ways I guess our trust in one another has waned so much that it has been difficult to really feel comfortable so hopefully we can regain trust someday, We will forever be bound in some ways by our children and hope that we can continue to both have their best interests first and foremost in our hearts and minds.

I guess there isn't much more to say other than I am sorry for the things that made you lose trust and faith in me, I still cannot believe that we find ourselves where we do and hopefully the road we travel in the future will be brighter for both if us.

I don't like it. Too much blame put on you, and don't insinuate that a D might be better for the kids. It most certainly would not. What would be best for the kids is to have a nuclear family where both parents love each other. I might say something along the lines of that you are going to continually show you are a better man and hope to soften her heart to keep your family together.

We talked a little bit last night and she seemed calm and I did mention some of what I wrote earlier along with talking to Dr Harley.

She was interested in what I had to say and we are going to go out for a late lunch or early dinner tonight just the 2 of us.

I told her of some of what I wrote earlier and I was a little encouraged by her reaction but not holding my breath that she won't keep pushing to split up.

I wrote my last post after reading someone on another thread where his W had asked for a LS but he stood his ground saying that he wanted his marriage to work but couldn't give her a S but would give a D.

He said his W recommitted when faced w/ the reality of the finality of it and I think if I could show that I am willing to make that step if need be she may realize that I am committed to working on things as I say.

Well the lunch or dinner never happened although we did get a chance to talk Sat. afternoon w/o the kids home but still status quo.

We also talked more yesterday and I guess I could have approached things better, She felt I was judging which I really wasn't trying to do.

I had said that the things that I brought and did during our M were wrong and I was and am truly ashamed for those.

Although I did try to say that I wasn't over the top as far as controlling went. I never tried keeping her from friends and in fact encouraged her to nurture and cultivate her friendships. I always asked her opinions on all matters as well as those of her parents.

She was a little upset also that I haven't been able to get an appt right away w/ an MC but she is working different hours b/c of the kids being on vacation and we are down 2 people at my job so it's hard to coincide.

I also feel that she is ultimately looking for someone to tell me that it is in our interest to S, Although our differing work schedules along with our children and such that we wouldn't find the time to connect.

Along with the fact that if we are maintaining 2 households money would be really tight and how could we afford to see a MC, She has mentioned that she could only make it about 6mths staying in the house.

I know she really doesn't like the house anymore and at times neither do I, But the market is tough and we owe more than we could get and it still needs work, I mentioned if we could start to move forward with a C, Focus on ourselves and kids, get the house in shape for when the market picks up we could then find something better.

Last night when we were talking she asked for the phone # for marriage builders radio program and said she was going to call today, I wish I didn't have a dentist appt @ Noon ET - so I could listen on the web but hopefully I will be able to hear the rebroadcast b/f I leave work today.

W had said she wanted to speak to the Harleys on the radio but for the last 2 days nothing, Granted her hours have been messed up due to kids being out of school and even though I wonder if it is some type of ruse w/ these hours I am starting to really believe the EA is over but with NC things are just in a perpetual state of replay.

W has also said she is open to seeing a MC but b/c of her schedule and my work obligations we haven't been able to get in yet, Part of me thinks she just wants to use this MC to bring up all the bad things about me to justify a S.

I have backed off saying the D word and still not giving in to a S either.

Last night was interesting, I had to stay until 5:30pm and when I got in W and D11 were out at the animal shelter so D11 could adopt another guinea pig, They got in a little after 6:00pm and D11 came in to tell me all about it, W went to the bedroom and was hiding out.

I stopped up and asked how her day(night) went and she said ok but seemed bothered, I continued to converse with her asking if everything was ok until she finally said she was depressed and when I asked why she only said everything.

I asked if she wanted to be alone, Not to talk but to both it said it didn't matter so I stayed and really focused on her, Saying that I wished I could help.

S10 was spending another night at a friends house so we decided to get something for takeout and I suggested that D11 and I go to get it and let W enjoy a relaxing shower.

Got back w/ food and W came out to kitchen, Got her food and went to the room, I stopped by and asked if she wanted company or to be left alone - Again doesn't matter and as much as I wanted to stay I thought I would try to gain some insight to things and said I hope I am not doing the wrong thing but I will let you be for awhile to relax since you have to work in a few hours.

I can't understand everything, She was really upset and teary about things and I don't know if things are starting to get to her about us and maybe starting to think that we can move ahead or if she was upset b/c maybe she has initiated D proceedings b/c I have said I cannot give a S.

Especially after a few weeks ago with everything that happened when she had her step out of the fog, Although she has always maintained that it was just "friends" and maybe thats her way of justifying it b/c I believe she feels she did not do anything physically that it wasn't wrong.

As I have said here, on the MB radio, C's I /we have seen I have admitted to all I brought to our R/M and of my desire to do everything I can to save my M and family, I only really need her to try and meet me even a little less that 1/2 way right now, To open her heart and see that I will do everything I can to make the R/M and family life what it should have been all along.

I just wish I knew, We have had so many conversations again about everything but she doesn't seem to get upset or seem disinterested with the conversations like she had in the past.

Wondering if I am beating a dead horse so to speak? My W never called the Harleys on MB radio, I am going to set up an appt today w/ a MC, The last 2 weeks have been very strange for the both of us with our work schedules.

I am hopeful that the MC I am contacting is what his ad says seems to be pro M. The first line in his ad says "Coaching individuals and couples in practical tactics for overcoming distress, building successful intimacy and avoiding destructive divorce".

The rest of his ad goes on to point out the many things that he works on criticism, defensiveness,hurt, frustration, anger, resentment, neglect,silence, contempt, lying,lonliness,infidelity, distrust and several others.

He is a Ph.D instead of just a therapist and hopefully we can gain some perspective, Also I am hopeful he will be familiar with Dr. Harley's approach and work.

I think that the more I own and focus on the things that I brought the more my W feels like she has not done anything, Although nothing excuses what I have done but for her to completely shut down and shut me out.

Yesterday we were talking and she was in her "holier than thou" moods saying that I caused distrust and strained relationships b/c of exposing her "friendship" with her family as well as mine, I let her know that my family and mother especially had issues w/ her b/f all this, My W has/had a tendency to lie or tell 1/2 truths and sometimes came across as in some peoples words a know it all.

I overlooked a lot of those things b/c she always made me feel loved even though I was aware of those traits at times.

Other than a few weeks ago, When she came to me and said she thought she made a mistake by retaining an atty and for the last several months, That she still loved me etc she can and has been for the most part very cold, distant and unfeeling - She says she doesn't feel like she can love again and not just me but that way, She can't trust again.

b/c of some of the things that have happened, I have not tried to bring up things where she may have been at fault or at least my perception and I am wondering if I am just feeding her fire?

She has always been kind of stubborn and in some ways withdrawn and I don't think it is/was always about me and my actions/reactions, She has also in the past and to some extent still has a hard time cultivating and maintaining friendships with women.

Sorry just ranting and hopefully someone can give me some hope and/or insight.

Can somebody talk me out of this? I took a 1/2 day today b/c with all this stuff going on the llast 6mths I didn't even want to do my taxes but had to before tomorrow.

I went to Staples got Turbo tax and new ink cartridges for printer, Got home and morning dishes were all done except the coffee pot and my coffee mug, W doesn't drink coffee.

As I was doing our taxes I started feeling like I didn't matter in anything, W acts like I am not here, I show care concern and always open to working on things but I feel like I can't, My frustration with all this has gotten to me.

D11 came home from school and she got the mail, Sorted through it and hid W's mail from me, She seems to have the kids paying attention to everything concerning my snooping.

No I guess I shouldn't have read her journal, But what is she doing having the kids spy on me, goes through certain things to take to the atty she saw such as my car loan that I pay no cosigner etc.

I want to to tel lher fine she gets the S, I can't take this and I know with my emotional/verbal abuse and the isolated physical things that I am no saint but her holier than thou attitude. lying and refusing to even work on things etc and now she can do all other dishes except ones I dirtied.

But I still do most if not all her laundry b/c I do it for me and the kids, Along with other things that I wont go into.

I have never shirked my financial responsibilities but unless I specifically ask for something from the store when she grocery shops it's nit even like I exist and even when I ask for something I don't always get it.

She seems to think that she is the only opinion in the house, Probably b/c of my constant owning of things I have done, But I admitted everything to anyone who would listen.

Family, C's, The Harley's on air, Church and she still blames me for outing her to everyone with her "friendship" and accuses me of straining her R with family members.

I don't know I just need someone to tell me something!

I don't know if I LB'ed or not but am feeling like I did, These talks ever since when came to me 3 Mondays ago after retaining an atty for LSA and said "What if I said I made a mistake" "I Love you" etc and after 2 days we are back to the LSA/D stage.

Anyway we were talking Yes again, I was mentioning some posts I have read here and on other sites concerning emotional abuse and as woman on this site mentioned that often it isn't one spouse the sole perpetrator of abuse.

Anyway I was trying to use positive communication, But at the same time I guess I was judging and probably didn't help things.

I mentioned how at times she had been less than honest, Others such as her Mom even admitted that, Also how we went on throught the early stages back in Oct, Nov, Dec where she didn't know what she wanted but was not seeking either IC or MC and recently with her statements concerning she still loved me etc that in some way couldn't that be some forms of emotional abuse - I know and I have said to myself that it may be a reach but in some ways I feel she is being vindictive.

Trying to push me out, Give in to a LSA, CS and her visitation schedule, I guess I must need an MB 2x4 as I feel stupid for saying these things, I guess it's one way to feel it but another to express it.

Again the thing that bothers me is she wants or had wanted to drag our D11 and S10 into all of this to see what their thoughts of Mommy wanting Daddy to move out, To me it sounds incredulous does she really think they will be ok with it? Is it fair to drag them into an adult situation?
I asked her what if they said they weren't would she agree to put forth an effort to really save this?

And what happens if she asks their opinion and they voice it and then she decides not to do anything isn't that teaching them that their opinions don't count?

Everyday it seems like it is stranger than the previous one,
She reneged on MC again - Maybe I also expressed myself and feelings too much b/c I mentioned that the only reason I have been talking like this again was b/c of all she said and then pulling back and how I do not like myself when I feel like I am eating the crumbs that she throws my way.

Sorry had to vent maybe someone will give me some words of encouragement.

dg,

It sounds like she can't go through with this without you giving in and saying, "yes, I'll agree to a divorce." I would suggest just trying to keep things light and having fun with her. The longer you continue to keep your chin up and fight for your family through all that you have been put through, the better your chance of making it to the other side. If she brings up D/LSA just tell her that you plan on doing whatever it takes to keep this family together and you will not accept anything less. Eventually she will give up the notion of trying to convince you to divorce her and as long as you plan A well, she will be motivated to try things again. Just keep things light and fun, be a good dad, plan family outings and dates with your wife (as she allows), and put on a good face through all of this. Eventually she will probably come around. Be the husband that she's always wanted and don't give her any excuse not to try again. You can do this.

This might be long, I haven't posted in awhile and I am wondering if someone can provide insight.

I guess I have gotten to the point where I will give her a LS although I saw the first one about a month ago and deemed it unacceptable, We talked at that time and she asked what I wanted to see, I gave her my parameters and she was going to have it rewritten, During this time I started looking for apts and think I have found one.

Over the last almost month there have been a few times with some LB'S that I should have nipped in the bud but didn't.

Two weeks ago, We were discussing the fact that I was not going to make the full mortgage payment due to the fact that I could be moving out shortly, When I told her I found an apt. her mood seemed to change and we were discussing many things when she said - You might laugh but the reason I want a S was so we could start over (like we were dating)

I seemed to try to understand even though I cannot and after several days around the time of our D12's Bday I started feeling melancoly about things - The apt is month to month and I have been in limbo due to a tenant that wasn't ready to leave on the 1st of May - So I asked again about do we really have to go through all of this just to work on things because she said she wants it to work and so do I so why not try.

She presented me with a 2nd draft of her LSA and I was floored - It was worse than the first one and she says that isn't what she asked him to write - I was stunned and said if this is the way it's going to be why not just go for a D b/c it seems that this is becoming adversarial, She doesn't want a D but seems to want me to give in to her which I can't because it is so unfair, When we were talking about holiday visitation she made a comment - "It wasn't even to supposed to last that long"

I don't know where her mind is at, She told the kids w/o me being there that I was moving out, I was upset about that.
She says things about the LSA then they dont seem to make it in the written document, I said by now I wont even waste my time taking it to an atty. if it looks as one sided as it did.

Finally this weekend comes and she had to leave work to pick our S10 up from school b/c he was sick, We had another round of talks and going back and forth - I sometimes feel like she says she wants to date and work things out to get me to sign something one sided, Part of me really wants to believe her, Other times I think she is just so messed up.

Anyway after the discussion - I walked over to her put my hand on her chin and turned her face to mine and kissed her, She didn't pull away and when I was done I saw her smile, I asked about the smile and she said she didn't want to tell me, When I pressed her she said it was her "daydream"

Sat comes and I had to work, She had something to do with my S10 for scouts and after work I felt like I am still having to move out for awhile and went and bought some things for the apt, When she came in she looked kind of shocked at what I had bought but I didn't press her on anything.

I went out for a few hours, When I woke up Sun, I had given our D12 a card for her to give with the one I had gotten for them to give to their mother for Mom's Day.

The card wasn't a true mothers day card but one of those between you and me cards about how it would be nice to get back on track in our relationship, Along with that I wrote a little note saying I wanted to get a real mothers day card but wasn't sure how she would respond and Thanked her for the 2 most precious gifts that we created.

She said Thanks for the card, I asked if she thought I was going overboard on what I bought for the apt and she seemed a little distressed, I said if I have to leave I need to feel comfortable etc.
I went to my Moms and she went to her parents, Not too much was said when I got home but I don't know what to read into in all of this it seems like a pattern between us of uncertainty.

Any comments would be appreciated, I know I must have jumped all around but my head is going crazy.

Just say no the D/LSA discussions. Don't move out. She needs to know that you will NEVER be okay with D/separation before she finally gives up the notion of you two splitting. If she wants a D/LSA, SHE moves out, not you. Stay strong. You are doing well. I know that you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel right now, but you are a year or two out. Just stand firm in your commitment to her and your family (unless you want a D, but I don't think that's what you want). This is a battle of wills, and you must win out if you want to keep your family together. You are discussing the M too much. Just drop the R/M talk, let her know you will not agree to LSA/D and that is that, and just court her.