I read and read and read time after time after time...."Well my WH/WW doesn't believe my changes are real", "He/she doesn't believe they will last", "He/She thinks I am only doing this so they will come back to me", "I see how wrong I was, how I wasn't meeting his/her needs", on and on and on.....

Okay, I do believe that each of us that unfortunately found themselves here has likely in some way, shape or form not been the best mate they could have been. We may have lacked meeting emotional needs for some period of time, we may have done worse than that in our R's.

BUT, when did the Wayward Spouse get a free ride for the crap that they did or didn't do in the M to make it better, safer, secure, exciting, fun, fulfilling, etc. ****** in most cases I would be willing to bet that not only did the one who decided to have the A not meet the needs of the BS but on top of that decided to go out and have an A for good measure. Because someone chose to have an A doesn't necessarily mean the BS was not a damn good H/W by most fair and commonly accepted measures.

I agree that the BS contributed to the state of the M pre affair BUT SO DID THE WAYWARD. The difference is that the BS never dreamed of having an A and destroying the family unit and everything around them. In a lot of cases the WS was not only responsible for half or majority of the state of the marriage but to ice the cake decided they would completely blow it up by having an affair.

I am a BS for the record and was a damn good husband by all accounts. ****** even as my WW was having an affair she confided in a friend that "R is a good husband, a good man and a great father." I know that I am not perfect and that there are things I need to change and improve upon and I intend to continue doing so. But in fact I was a better spouse to her than she was me and yet she's the one who decided to have an affair. I will change and grow for me and our children. If she ever decided that she wanted to explore a R with me again (better chance of ****** freezing over than me taking her back) then I would and will not be walking around wondering if I am doing everything just right or pleasing her or whatever, IT WOULD BE HER THAT NEEDS TO PROVE TO ME her undying love, her desire to change, her plan for NC, her plan for never doing this again, her plan for counseling, her plan for setting boundaries, her plan for apologizing to everyone she hurt and walked on, her plan , her plan, her plan, you get the idea.

Sorry for the vent but I just noticed so many people whose friends and family probably think are great individuals talking about how they need to do this or do that to please someone who basically cannot be pleased and decided to go outside of M to find the next "thing" that makes them happy since they are unhappy with who they are.

hopeandpray,

I am with you on this, and I think this is why plan A is so painful for some (me included). What makes it worse is the revisionist history mindset a WS tends to take on, whereby a BS who maybe has been a good spouse is viewed by the WS as horrible, marriage was a sham, WS never really loved BS.

(Not so) funny thing, I have been looking at letters and cards that WW had given to me over the years, expressing her love for me, thanks for things I did , etc. So was it all a lie then or is it a lie now? I still believe the latter, but it's hard, it really is.

hopeandpray..

there are those marriages inwhich there was NOTHING wrong with anything the BS did...

the question is not why did your spouse have an affair...

the question is why does your spouse "SAY" they had an affair....\

big difference...

plan A and meeting needs is all about keeping lines of communication open
keep things to a minimal roar so that lives are not in shouting chaos perpetually..
and disarming all the f--up thinking that an active WS USES and RATIONALIZES for their horrid actions...

powerstruggling
confrontation
villification of the OP..

allll feed in to the active WS spouse jumbled thought processes.....

if you give the WS what they expect they are ready for it and don't even hear you cause they already have their counterarguement formulated and nailed down ready to be launched...

give them in plan A exactly what they don't expect..

they have to listen
they have to think
and they have process to formulate their counter attack...

WS don't get a free ride...but they aren't one bit interested in their actions in an affair...and the more you the BS confront them with them....the more they will use that to soldify how BAD the marriage is...

WS process their actions in recovery
they show understanding as they slowly step back and see who and what they were in throes of an affair...

if you were to force an active WS to see themselves all at one time..

they will flee from the BS just to outrun themselves....

NO ONE believe BS are the cause of affair or are responsible for the actions....

but to communicate with a WS on some levels you have to play their game..

the brain is very powerful in adapting to survival and to thinking is way that makes them look good and saves face...

the reality of the actions of the affair is there are no saving graces at all...

shove it down their throats and they'll be gone..

plan A very very very very hard
plan A needs an end point with ALL intent to go to plan B


fake recovery
fake remorse
fake apologies can be easy to obtain..
they are empty and meaningless

I am often wary of the WS who comes clean immediately...with everything

seems to me a red flag they've gone to appeasement and moved the whole mess underground till it blows over...

ARK

It basically boils down to power dynamics.

You want something they have.

In order to get them to the negotiating table you need to have something they want.

Just another page from the "sucks but true" book of human relations.

I *do* think that maybe it could be rephrased somehow to more accurately convey this and not blameshift.

It is really offensive to be asked.."so..how have you failed your marriage?" on the heels of your recent victimization.

There is a subtle yet very present and persistent belief that the WS was somehow *driven* to an affair by your failures.

It's a load of crap, it gets you thinking about the right answers and questions, but it's a load of crap anyway.

jmo

hopeandpray -

I agree (or at leas feel the same way you do). Yes, I contributed numerous problems to our marriage. I'm even willing to consider that I may have contributed the majority.

But as I told my wife after D-Day, I wasn't happy in our marriage either, but I didn't go out and have an affair (which, in hindsight, was probably a pretty mean thing to say, even if it was true).

The simple fact, IMO, is that in our case, neither of us we're meeting each other's needs - because our own weren't being met. I have no idea which one of us started that, nor do I really care. The cycle needs to be broken.

Plan A is a tool for the BS to break that cycle (among other things) - at least on the BS' part. When a BS implements Plan A, I think the WS is suspicious not just becuase they don't believe the changes will stick, but becaues they need to continue to justify their choices - or admit they were wrong.

It's very hard to Plan A while the WS lists all your faults, but never volunteers what their contribution to the marital state was. It's even harder to Plan A when you get no (or almost) no recognition of your changes from the WS. And it gets compounded when the WS will tell everybody but you that she's aware of the effort and changes you are making.

Ok...I've probably vented a little more than I intended to. But I hear you and agree with you. It is, unfortunately, the dynamic of the affair beast <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Quote:

But as I told my wife after D-Day, I wasn't happy in our marriage either, but I didn't go out and have an affair (which, in hindsight, was probably a pretty mean thing to say, even if it was true).


HB...I don't think there is anyhting mean or inappropriate about saying this.

I certainly have..I said it to my own spouse and I have said it to countless WSs over the years.

People go through periods of dissatisfaction.

Fact of life.

noodle -


Last year during one of our counseling sessions, our counselor (at the time) said "Yes, you have been hurt badly. But years of neglect by you drove MP to this."

Being something of a doormat back then I didn't immediately call him on that statement, though I did send him a lengthy e-mail about what I thought of it (to which he never replied).

I think one of the most re-assuring things a new BS hears on these forums is that they are not repsonsible for their spouse's choice to have an affair.

I have plenty of blame in my situation with MP. But I have not, and never will, accept blame for her choice to have an affair. As I wrote to the counselor, I would go to the mat with God Himself on that one.

When the Faithful Spouse decided to try to recover the marriage instead of proceeding directly to divorce.

But don't worry, I'm sure any FWS here will tell you that the "free ride" doesn't last. They hit a point in Recovery where they really feel the impact of their previous "life."

God bless.

It troubles me too, I've been the bad guy in my marriage and the only problem my WW wants to bring up. I've been struggling with that as well, I've often said there are times that I almost bit through my lip to stop from saying anything. The only control I am practicing is SELF-CONTROL to not give her EXACTLY what she wants: A reaction.

Do not defend yourself and they will defend you - when they return from the fog. That's one way I see it. I agree and take accountability for the things I have done. It helps me become a better person by saying it aloud, confessing my sins, committing to myself to improve and be honest. I can't worry about her fog anymore: A WS has to realize on their own the following: All problems in marriages are shared. When they do that, you know you are getting somewhere.

HNP,

Thank you for starting this thread...good to see you, venting or not.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would love BS's to remember...they are limited as humans...so are WS's...what the WS says isn't The Truth and what the BS says isn't The Truth...each is their own.

And as Ark points out, we do not have the power to make anyone feel loved...they feel it. In every WS there is a "I didn't feel loved" aspect...even when their BS is acting from love every minute...doesn't mean the WS will choose to feel, believe or perceive it...up to them, isn't it?

We can't make others go wayward...we can only ensure we do not. I believe the BS's here who did not have A's could feel their own self-love and respect...knew that's not who they really were or wanted to be...didn't justify...rationalize...as an act of love to themselves. Most WS's have no clue how to love themselves at all.

Keep it in mind, folks, as you go through this...BS's...you aren't that powerful...and the road to recovery is full of understanding, ownership; knowing your human limits and power. Cherish all you've learned and are learning...your choice.

LA

You are so wise LA............

Ok, since I am the resident WS around here right now, I thought I would add some perspective.

Noodle's response resonanted the most with me:


With this line the most telling:



Yes, I have used this line and realized the fallacy of it as recovery has progressed. I made the choice to have an affair. That's something broken in me. It can be bandaged, Duct-taped and wrapped in baling wire, but I am the broken one there. So, all my future actions need to be reflected thru that mirror. That my threshold for another A is significantly lower than most other married people, and significantly below most of the BS around here.

My BS could have an A. But her threshhold wasn't met.

Our M up to the start of the A had a lot of issues. And after my A started, well it certainly didn't get any better then, did it?

I am a significantly different person now, post D-Day, and so is BS. We made the changes that we felt we had to make to get to a better M. And so far, knock on wood, it seems to be working. But, if we stop working it, then the old problems can creep back in. And we know where my threshold is, so I keep working...

So, if you are in Plan A and getting bombarded with "All the things you have done wrong" That is WS fog speak. And if WS ends the affair, establishs NC and still claims that "all the things wrong are your fault" then recovery hasn't, and may not ever, start... And that is on the WS.

So, both partners have work to do. WS/BS. The WS has to atone for far greater misdeeds than BS. But both partners need to change those destructive behaviors that drove love out of the M. In whatever proportions that they have occurred.

So wise, you are!

I'm a WW (2 EA's) here to add my perspective. Keep in mind my perspective on this are based on being 7-8 mos. out of the A...so I've had a lot of time to figure some things out.

I didn't feel loved. I had never really felt loved, not just in my marriage, but thoughout my life. Even though my DH said it to me over and over, I didn't feel it. I felt alone, and I've had a pretty sorry self image my entire life. Was my DH a good spouse prior EA? For the most part, yes. Our relationship was certainly defective in some aspects. Did he deserve what I did? Absolutely not. Was I happy in my marriage? No I hadn't been, and I tried to communicate this many times over the years only to fall on deaf ears, or see very short term attention to it.
Does that justify what myself and other WS's did?

ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOT...

In my situation what it boils down to is that I was not happy with myself. I didn't know HOW to be happy, what to do to be happy. I could go into a litany of why that is but it doesn't matter. I put the onus of my happiness onto my spouse and when he didn't deliver, and someone else surfaced who might, I was selfish and took it.

I do not blame my DH. I accept full responsibility. If he had wanted to divorce I would've accepted that as what I deserved for what I had done. Some WS's may feel they can blame the BS for what happened, but I never felt that way. I knew it was wrong, regardless of any other circumstances. I will always accept that and never make my DH feel like he should "get over it already."

What I realize now is that no one can make you happy. It is not my husband's job to do that, it is his job to be a good husband. But being a good spouse in and of itself does not guarantee another one's happiness. I accept that a good portion of our problems resulted from my own issues. I also realized that eventually the OM wouldn't be able to make me happy either. I realize that probably no matter what I had done in my life, I wouldn't have been happy.

I'm trying to learn how to do that now.

I don't know if this helps to make sense of anything or not, but there it is.

hopeandpray,

I remember coming to MB after the discovery of my H's second infidelity. I remember the whole dynamic in the beginning....people asking me about the condition of our marriage prior to this event (trying to alert me to my contribution): what my lovebusters were, what ENs of his I didn't fill, what 50% I contributed to this tragedy.

And I also remember thinking.....what a bunch of crap. Not only was I heartbroken, but I was told that I was somehow 50% responsible for my own pain. I should have been more assertive perhaps....but I wasn't neglectful or hurtful. I thought I was supporting my husband's career.

The idea that I had driven him to an affair was a jagged little pill that I spit out onto the floor.

It was crap.

I'm an imperfect person. I was not the perfect wife. But I was a good, compassionate, dedicated, committed, loyal, loving, giving wife.

We filled out the LB questionaire....and he didn't have many complaints. We filled out the EN questionaire and he didn't have many complaints. (I was the one with complaints! AND loyalty!) I didn't neglect him.....his job required that he spent days, weeks, months away from his family. Life in the oilfield promoted entitlement and affairs. Marriages were casualities of the business. Children too. Nobody seemed to care.

I didn't fail to meet his needs.....I had no opportunity to meet his needs. We spent so much time apart that even when we were together....we were strangers....angry stangers....lonely strangers. By the time we could connect he was flying to the next meeting.

The result was EXACTLY the same as if I had neglected and abused him. He was alone and unfulfilled.

So was I.

But I was at home with babies and focussed on them. And he was in exotic places without that grounding....and where temptation and opportunity was built into the system.

I reject the idea that I had ANY major responsibility for my husband's character failure or the state of my marriage. We continue to evolve.....and fight those things in our society that undermine the values that will keep our marriage strong. It's been hard....it still is....but I like where we're going and ultimately....I know I made the right choice.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

right on Starfishy

Hope,

Geez I was thinking about this today. It was funny my FWW made a comment this morning and said "I have always loved you". I guess my little pause caused some discomfort.

Then of course that led to her saying "I may not of always showed it but I did"

That got me to thinking about why I never had an A which got me to thinking about her A. Which got me to thinking about why she had it. Which got me t thinking she had it because she wanted to.

I don't know anyone with a perfect M. WE all have problems in our M's from time to time. Some of which can be of a shorter duration then others.

I think during those times we are vulnerable. However somehting happens in a WS mind. They really need to justifiy their behavior so they amplify a BS faults.

Lets face it the revision of history is necessary to prove they are not bad people the were driven to the A by the BS inadaquecy.

I think Plan A is a way to remove all of the inadaquecies of the BS so the WS has no reason not to go back. It puts the onus back on the WS. Hey I am willing to be the perfect BS if you give up OP. Takes away that I would have stayed if........ scenario.

Attributing adultery to a lack of WS ENs being met bothered me for a long time.

Doesn’t much any more though.

One way to look at the EN thgeory of marriage is as a contributing factor to the train wreak. Excessive speed, bad weather, engineer inattention, break in the track… Any one factor may have been overcome. All together – they caused the mess.

Juries are often asked to assign a degree of blame to parties in a tort case: 60% to the defendant, 30% to the plaintiff and 10% to an act of God, say.

ENs are like that, IMO. Their fulfillment enhances a marriage, but their lack is no excuse for anything. They simply contribute.

If ENs are the be-all and end-all cause of adultery and the ultimate solution in recovery, we are all in big trouble.

What happens if you, or a child, get sick and you cannot meet an EN or two no matter how much you want or try? What happens if you get downsized at work and it takes a while to find a new job? What happens if life just plain gets in the way of instant, or almost instant, gratification?

Well, according to a pure EN outlook, your marriage is doomed. You are BS toast. Period. ENs by themselves as a cause of adultery implies all marriages are throwaway, and “for better or for worse, and in sickness and in health” needs to be removed from the vows.

But there is more:

Sometimes, actually I believe almost all the time, WS ENs are defective to one degree or another. Their ENs cannot be met to their satisfaction by anyone. That only 3% or so of affairs last more than 2 years is proof enough for me. If WS ENs were in fact meetable by OP, or anyone, the affair would last indefinitely. Defective ENs are not easily spotted though. Takes an expert most of the time. Certainly no ordinary spouse can sort it out prior to D-day.

Happiness is an illusion. A feeling. Very ethereal. What meets an EN (and makes one happy) one day does not on the next. For anyone with half a brain this is called life. But, for some reason, the typical WS-to-be never figured this out. I see on MB alone so many clueless people and they are mostly WS and early FWS.

The BS is in the same M as the WS. So who’s ENs are more important, anyway? The BS’s ENs were not being met either, doh.

During the adultery they were not being met at all. Protestations of WS aside, adultery is serious spouse abuse. It is not only the ultimate DJ/LB, it prevents the WS from meeting BS ENs like running into a brick wall stops forward momentum.

And let me mention perceptions. WS have very skewed perceptions of reality. This goes way beyond rewriting marital history. They thought the world was all about them for a along time before they wandered. Shoot, they were aimlessly wandering the earth, for the most part, since they were weaned. Don’t believe me? Just ask a recovered one here on MB.

The EN theory of affairs is a tool. A tool for improving marriage during and after recovery. It gives both spouses something to look forward to. Something to focus upon beyond the affair. Something to keep one’s hands from being idle.

The idea that their EN were not met also gives the early FWS a face-saving way of coming home after adultery burns out. It wasn’t their entire fault, see. They can point to a missing whatever as part of the props on their stage of life. They better not use missing ENs to justify anything for long. But IMO they may perceive ENs as a way to enter early negotiations from their inferior position. But they must abandon this position before true recovery can take hold.

Dr H writes that unmet ENs are present in most marriages that experience adultery. Now, that could mean 50.1%. It certainly does not mean all. And it was not the case in my M. FWW says I always met her ENs very well. (And she has never met my ENs much at all.)

So why her affair?

Because she could.

Because she perceived she was entitled to do anything she wants.

Because she believed marriage is disposable.

Why did her adultery last 10 years?

Because it was addictive.

And because she perceived she was entitled to do anything she wants.

And, of no small consequence, she was very much in love (the feelings) with OM.

So, take ENs in context. They are not a silver bullet.

Much more serious than ENs are LBs, IMO. But even LBs are warped by erroneous perceptions. A whole thread by itself.

With prayers,

I totally, utterly 1000% agree with FH on this.

Seeing your FWW crash and crushed under guilt and shame is not pretty.

"The difference is that the BS never dreamed of having an A and destroying the family unit and everything around them."

Well, I dreamed of wonderful affairs many times during my FWW's VLTA. Many times. And during some very blatant opportunities, too.

But I never acted on it. I always knew it would be morally and ethically wrong. I always loved my wife enough to not want to hurt her (or so I thought that an affair would hurt her, even if she never found out. So much for my perceptions, huh.)

Threshold?

No.

An absolute certainty.


With prayers,

LG - this statement really bothers me. We all know that we can be vulnerable to an affair if our needs are unmet - but it has nothing to do with thresholds - an affair is self medication and a clear choice. Not because some magical threshold has been breached.