Mark, that's the beauty of MB and MC. I SEE where we failed and I'll never let that happen again. Vigilant is now my middle name.

Jen - I like you in cyber space too. LOL.

Let's not go there shall we.

I agree Mark.

Jen,

I think that is the point BigK was trying to make. You must know what to do if the boundary is threatened and be ready to flee. You must recognize the threat before it becomes an attack. You can never be impervious, so you must be prepared.

Beware the pride that says "I will!" It almost guarantees failure. When God allowed Job to be tested, He was the one that brought Job to the attention of the devil. Job was singled out because he was righteous in God's eyes. Testing will come even when we do everything right. Be watchful!

One way to tend the hedge is with PORH. If we share with each other everything as it happens, nothing can become a secret. We also tend to make certain that we do not do anything that could be misinterpreted when we know that our S will know about it.

Mark

You're right, you can't "affair proof" your marriage but meeting the EN's can certainly lessen the odds in many cases. Also, about the needs being different for men and women, I think that had a lot to do with why my marital satisfaction was where it was. I gave him the things I would've liked to have, cuddling/affection, while he had other things he would've preferred. I could tell he wasn't always into receiving affection and would withdraw sometimes. That's how the distance between spouses develops. In our case, I think that was there before we even got married. We were young, and just didn't know what we were doing, even though at the time we both thought we did...

The Paris Hilton phenomenon, where did my life go? Is this all there is, what have I missed out on? I can relate to that. Why is it that at this point, I had an A, and never had before even though I had been quite unhappy at times in years prior? I think it was time for this whole mid-life crisis thing to hit, not to mention I had never been pursued that vigorously...and I think the fact the most of it was conducted over the internet made it easier to cross boundaries. I know I said things via the net that I would never have been able to say to someone face to face.

Many do not value the sanctity and committment of marriage, and I think it's because people grow up not being taught those values and the media/tv just adds to it. (Just as the media promotes the fantasy of happily ever after/soulmate/unrealistic expectations of marriage that I grew up yearning for). A's are just more acceptable culturally now than used to be. Sad statement to be sure. These are all things that as parents, we need to be proactive about teaching our children.

And the quote by Pittman..."Marriage isn't supposed to make you happy. It's supposed to make you married." was one of the first things I came across after my EA's, and it was a "light bulb." I will never forget it and have quoted it to many people since. If I'd only came across this information 20 years ago.

And someone asked about AD's...I've been on them for 10 years. I think it's been there my whole life, but it all came to a head after my first child was born and she was seriously ill and we didn't know what was wrong with her. I had medical complications as well and it was all more than I was able to deal with and I became severely depressed. Life was complete ****** for me then, absolutely. I didn't know what to do, I didn't have the strength to try and do anything. I sat in the corner and cried most of the time. My poor DH didn't really know what to do either, but he stuck with me and that says a lot. I know I certainly wasn't fulfilling his EN's or very pleasant to be around for almost an entire year at that time. If anyone has justification for an A, it would've been my DH during that time, yet he didn't...but years later, I did. So basically as a loyal wife, I was a failure.

Yes absolutely! DH and I have discussed this. Complaining about one's spouse to a person of the opposite sex is a no no. Talking about sex is a no no. Talking about how one would treat the other differently, etc...all set the stage for danger. No, no, no...I have my boundaries well set.

Thanks for the correction, it was Pittman, not Gunzberg. Can't tell the "Franks" apart any more.

A year ago I never even heard of any of these people that wrote books on marriage and infidelity. Now I've read most of their work and even have opinions on which ones I think are full of [email]cr@p.[/email] This wasn't the first web site I visited, but it sure turned out to be the best.

Mark

"By any yardstick, I had a very good marriage. Yes, I too, have those cards and letters telling me I was Mr. Wonderful and how everything was so great for her. Enter the OP. Now suddenly I'm quite the villain, having done such terrible things as removing the dish strainer from within the sink to choosing a bad color for our hall carpet."

Hiker, I know exactly what you are saying. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. My wife said the same kinds of things.

I feel like I should have gone to Plan B the day I found out because it seems like all the time I worked on my Plan A has been wasted. I tortured myself watching her cheat and continue to lie to me for 7 months. I lied to my kids about where their mom was when I knew the truth.

But it will soon be over. I am just waiting for the divorce decree now.

Thanks all for the very interesting debate and information. Great points from all sides!!

I do think that there is something (I have discussed this with other MB'ers) that may need addressing. That is the WS that leaves a "good", "great" M to pursue an A. I know that good and great are in the eye of the beholder but I think we all can generally say that there are accepted standards that make a good solid M.

I know that in my case if I could know ALL that I know now and go back in time and deal with my EX WW's A I would do it differently....

I plan A'd (didn't know I was doing until I found MB) for about three months before ever really knowing she was having an A (I convinced myself that my loving wife who had just given birth to our son 8 mos earlier in no way shape or form would have an A even though signs were there). I plan A'd even more (including the carrott and stick) for about 3 more months, left the door open for her. I never got a chance to do a Plan B as IMO she was monkeying with our children's well being, starting to involve them in her A so I went straight to D (letting her know I would be willing to speak with her about saving our family before the D was final if she dropped OM and had NC for life). She chose OM over her family and we got D'd, had ugly custody battle with me winning full custody of our son.

Now, let's pretend I had a time machine and could go back in time.......Rewind<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I would have plan A'd in the absence of knowing about the affair. I would asked her to go to M counseling (I did this anyway before). I would have confronted directly undesirable friends she began hanging with. I would have been more insistent about her quitting her job (even without knowing about the A). Once I found out that there was an A, I would have asked her to stop, quit her job, write a NC letter, exposed to OM's wife and family and work, directly and I mean directly confronted OM, and if she declined I would have went to attorney's office day 1 after her declining and filed D, got a temporary order, asked for full custody, child support, and more and immediately went plan B and never looked back until she once again if ever became my WIFE again and not the WW that was destroying everything she came in contact with.

?

I was speaking about ~anyone~ who is married

and finds themselves attracted to an OP

and keeps going back for 2nds, 3rds, etc ... KNOWING there is an attraction

? a low blow ?

I am NOT discussing YOU per se
but how romantic affairs begin ... BY GOING BACK

regardless ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Big K <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ) of the danger that exists by GOING BACK for 2nds, 3rds, etc

and how does one KNOW the danger is there (one may ask)

[color:"red"] DANGER ~~~>[/color] if you feel the need to keep the attraction/meeting/email/phone call/chance sighting a secret from your spouse

Kiwi, for the record, I am waaaaaaay finished discussing your marriage

if you think I am refering to you, ask me ... but I am discussing affairs, so sometimes it is bound to fit your shoe size ... which can't be helped

take it in stride

Pep

[color:"red"] Hiker [/color]



[color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]
(not a word , as spelled here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

what I was trying to say
but you said it for me with proper word usage (is usage a word?)

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

hopeandpray,


The bottom line is this, if either spouse thinks there is a problem in the marriage, the first step ought to be communicating that problem, then seek a solution. It is certainly possible that the solution might involve divorce; but having an affair is definitely not a solution.

So basically anyone who tries to rationalize their affair because they say their marriage was bad doesn't have a leg to stand on. They had lots of other options: communicating, counseling, separating, divorce, etc. But having an affair wasn't one of those options.

The marital vow is about the most solemn oath you can make. Throughout life, there are a number of right/wrong issues where the line of demarcation is often fuzzy. But that isn't the case with adultery. Outside of murder, there is hardly a more clearcut case of wrong to be found anywhere in human behavior. If a person can't see that, you have to wonder if they can manage to make any good ethical choices in their life.

Mickey,

Sorry to hear your situation has come to that, but mine is there too.

Time to re-group and figure out what to do next. Losing my family has me wondering where to go from here, because like my father before me, family was everything.

BigK,

Thanks for the welcome. I left that one thread once the name calling and mudslinging started. That's not what I'm here for.

Pepperband,

I'm only reiterating what you already wrote quite clearly. Incidentally, I want to tell you that your writings have always been a great help to me.

hey
thanks
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Shaddup Pep!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

dumb oz-land-er

hahahahaha

So do tell, what ones have you found to be helpful...? Besides the Harleys of course...

Mom