Hello everybody,

So everyone seems to agree that the BS must spy and determine that NC is really in effect in order for the M to have any shot at all. My question is, when do you stop? It was my continued spying in January that revealed to me one additional phone contact. The NC letter was late November, but I know that it wasn't until early December that contact even became infrequent.

It's kind of like asking "when will I trust again?" If I stop spying, I'm at her complete mercy. If I do keep spying, then that's completely in conflict with the radical honesty we are trying live by in recovery. How can we really be completely open with each other if I continue spying, or expect her to be completely open with me? And yes, she says I can read through all of her email accounts now, but if she really has something to hide, then I would absolutely have to do some spying she doesn't know about.

So, MelodyLane and others, when do you uninstall the spyware programs and fire the private investigator?

NS

When she has proven to be trustworthy and your recovery is progressing well and her love for you is genuine.

Does "spying" have to be a violation "Radical Honesty"?

If she has given you access to her accounts and you have explained to her that you need to be able to check up on her from time to time, then I think you're within the guidelines of "Radical Honesty".

She certainly has not demonstrated that you can "relax" and trust her with the additional phone contact in January.

What did you do about that contact? Did you confront her?

You are pretty early in the process, NotSleeping.

I think a more active monitoring is fully warranted at such an early stage. Over time, is should back down -- not checking her email or voicemail every day, but every other day or once a week.

As bigkahuna implied, the burden of making you feel comfortable enough to trust again is on her. Until then, monitoring her activities, email, voicemail, credit cards -- even if it includes "spying" techniques to ensure she isn't hiding new accounts -- is just one tool you have to confirm what she is saying about her committment to you and your marriage.

It's hard sometimes for a wayward spouse to understand.

My wife bristled at my "spying". She likened it to living in a prison or under a microscope. I had to constantly remind her that given her history, it was the only tool I had to help restore trust. Just trying to believe what she said wasn't enough because so much of our past recovery was polluted with her lies and deceit.

I still check her accounts -- not as often and not as anxiously, but I still check.

It will subside over time, but you do not need to carry any guilt for doing this. It is a pro-active step you can take to rebuild your level of comfort in her committment to you and her committment to not doing anything like this again.

Blessings

I still look at her work e-mail, in fact I just left there.

In your case I would not even consider it...did she disclose contact? If not your issues are pretty significant are they not? Until such time that there's radical honesty...keep checking....Unfortunately you're going to face more of this...

You can stop "spying" when your spouse becomes totally and completely transparent. When nothing is off-limits it isn't spying.

Echo the same sentiments.

As recovery progresses it should move from spying, to trust and verify, to WS proving trust worthiness, to everything being an open book.

When spying, the WS should not be aware of the particulars only confronted with the findings. You shouldn't trust a WS at all.

Trust and verify starts after the NC letter is sent. Techinically this is when a WS is a budding FWS. You can start to trust them, but everything needs to be verified. This is so you know whether you are dealing with a WS or a FWS. The F/WS is in withdrawal is always at risk to start up contact or respond to contact attempts.

WS proving their trust worthiness ideally starts after withdrawal. If the WS head has cleared from the fog and withdrawal, they will get it, and start to show you the "proof" of their trust worthiness. Actualy some of the best recoveries seem to be from FWS who take pride in proving their trustworthiness.

Once everything is an open book, all this just becomes habit or normal course of business.

The key thing is a BS should not move to the next stage until they see the action from the WS. Additionally, there should be some overlap. i.e. once the NC letter is sent, you should still be doing some "spying" along with the trust and verify. Maybe for 2 weeks or a month, or longer depending on what other reads you are getting from the WS. Once they start proving themselves trustworthy, you should still do the occassional trust and verify.

I know that I felt real bad about spying, it just seemed so inconsistent with the PORH. Until my FWW broke no contact. Then I was really glad that I did spy.