Mr.W a question for you.

I was reading over the thread on boundaries the other day and thought alot about the boundary that you had set... something along the lines of that you would not accept a marriage that is without love.

Do I have this boundary correct?

If so, can you tell me what this means to you and how you are able to measure it?

Mrs. W... when you first heard this what did you think and how did you feel?

I'll update my sich and explain my question a little more after.

Shaden

(((Shaden)))...

Just wanted to let you know that we saw this...I'm going to post to you about it tomorrow as it is 12:35 am or so EST here and I have to get up early with our DD...

Just talked about you last night, and wondered how you were doing, and then your post to us tonight...They say there are no coincidences in life...WOW, huh?

Cya tomorrow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

How I measure "it" is kinda a personal question...doncha think???

Actually, I went to Home Depot and bought myself a love stick

It accurately measures love to 1/1000th of a degree


Ok...enough with the stupid jokes

I really only said the loveless marriage boundary to her immediately after D-day. On that particular evening I was attempting to instill some reality in the then continuing affair...such reality being: OM lives 750 miles away, he is not going to move to Michigan (good ole southern boy with no $$$$) and my/our daughter is NOT going to be going to Georgia. She responded by throwing up her hands and saying "fine, you win Mr. W, I'll stay but know that you merely manipulated me and I will never love you again". I responded that she need not worry...I refuse to remain long in a loveless marriage.

It's a simple boundary and basically Dr. Harley said it the other day on his radio show. IF your spouse refuses to meet your emotional needs, that is abusive, and you should consider separating yourself from such abuse. Dr. Harley did NOT say you should divorce over it...just remove yourself from it. Maybe you should call in to the radio program to get further clarification about what he said and ask a more pertinent question regarding your specific situation. Dr. Harley's formula is pretty simple. Feeling follow action. Meet emotional needs and love results. How are you doing at meeting hers????

Anyway...this far into recovery the fact you are asking me this question makes me quite concerned for you. One of the things I/we did before my wife's affair was withdraw from each other. Mrs. W and I were both ripe for an affair. I should NOT have NOT conflict avoided and basically shut down. Neither of us were meeting each other needs. How are you addressing these problems with your wife??? Are you conflict avoiding??? What are you saying to her??? Why can't you say anything to her??? What have you got to lose??? What do you fear???

I'll sleep on this. Good to see you back. How ya doing on that Black and White issue??? This could almost be another one...either she loves you or she doesn't, not really any grey area there. Have you asked her??? Is she still foggy???

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- As I read this draft to Mrs. W, she expressed just how much MB has helped her/us. We just don't understand why there are not many more couples posting herein. Does Mrs. Shaden know about this place??? Would she join in??? What about going to a MB weekend seminar or you'll be separating??? Mortarman and his wife just went to one in San Francisco and his wife is totally into MB now...she gets it. Even requesting 100 posts on these boards would likely be enough to engage her in the program.

Hi W's,


thanks for posting... and I'm surprised there weren't more jokes. I figured this question would look a little odd.
I'll be back tonight to give the details behind it.

Shaden

When I exposed, my wife said to me that "If I come back to you I will be miserable, and I will make you miserable".

I was suprised to hear that for a few different reasons. I agree wholeheartedly with your "I refuse to have a loveless marriage" - it makes sense the way you framed it.

Hi Shaden -


MrW is right. I myself asked the good Dr a similar question (regarding a WS where the A appears to be over, but the WS is still not committed to the marriage and doesn't appear to be willing to do so).

Plan B is not just about breaking up affairs. The affairs are something the WS and the OP are doing. Plan B is all about protecting the BS from the WS's behaviors and preserving their love for the WS for when/if they come back.

That protection is needed - whether it's an affair, a spouse not meeting the other spouse's ENs, or a spouse abusing (verbally/phsyically) the other. (OK..the last one is my opinion).

I second MrW's suggestion that you call in to the radio show. It would be good if you send an e-mail ahead of time outlining your situation. If my experience with the show is the norm, you'll get a few minutes of one-on-one with Dr. H off the air while they go to commercial.

It's free, and Dr. Harley is amazingly perceptive. I gave him a thumbnail, and he tumbled to something about my situation that I had never even hinted at (though I had thought about it).

Shaden,

My answer to this really seems to be largely unnecessary due to Mr. W's explanation of when he said this to me...I was a foggy mess then, so I'm sure you can imagine what I thought and felt when I first heard it...But as we progressed throughout recovery, I certainly understood that boundary and I agree with it very much...

Key for us, as Mr. W pointed out, is BOTH of us being on board with MB principles...For me, it's hard to imagine any other way...

Anyway "Switzerland", I'm pretty sure that Mr. W answersed all this pretty well for you...I'll await your fleshing out of your situation a bit, and go from there...Any other questions for me, just say the word! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. Yanno, last night before bed, I was SURE that I had more to say on this issue, but that "mouthy man o'mine" stole all my good stuff! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not to TJ, but Mr and Mrs. W, would love to hear your comments on my post about independent vs. interdependent. This was something SH brought up yesterday and I'm confused by it.

*waving* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hi Switzerland!

Pep

Hi everyone.

My update... I'll try and keep it short.

The last couple of months life has been "normal"... kids in school and hockey, working hard at my new job, my wife working, some family time, etc.... no real big fights, but also I was slowly getting better at not jumping to resentment and avoiding conflict as much.

I am pretty easy going so a lot of little things do not bother me. I help out alot around the house and with the kids... not a lot of normal stuff to fight about. I wasn't feeling much resentment over things that used to cause me grief, however, slowly my W was getting more and more distant and withdrawn.

We talked a couple of times about it when we could... no break throughs.

In mid January, I presented her with a new budget... she has chosen over the years to leave the finances to me and has not been involved. This has been a problem in the past... I used to try and buy her happiness (not anymore... Christmas was simple and not a lot of extras... unless you count surprising her with Easter Cream Eggs... her favorite)... and now our finances are not doing so well... especially since with both of our job changes, we are making about 60% from a year ago. My severance package was mostly used up while I was looking for work.

It was obvious to me that we had to sell the house and start over. I talked to her about this back in Oct/Nov. but she was unwilling to look at it then... I think, Pep, that you or Mel commented on how immature she was being at the time.
This time around she did look at it and agreed we have to make this move. I left for a week for a conference in the States and am now back ready to get the house up for sale.
We still have not told the kids... she wanted to plan first.

Over the last couple of months I have been waffling back and forth over continuing to love her and stay for the kids, remain the lighthouse... to the idea that I was enabling her to not change or move in this relationship.

She was still unwilling to go to counselling or make any real changes.

After reading about the boundaries again the other night, I finally made up my mind what I had to do.

On Sunday, I asked to talk to her. Asked her about her distance... about what she wanted. She claims she loves me but I said that her actions do not show that to me.

I finally stated my boundary that we promised when we married to love, honour and cherish each other. That is what I need and expect from both of us. I was not willing to stay in a marriage without both of us working at this. She says she loves, and respects me but doesn't love me the way I need her to love me. I said if that is the case then we should probably separate when the house sells. I told her that I love her and do not want to sep. I told her that I would continue to work hard at our relationship... whatever it takes, however, I need her to start showing it as well.

Nothing was resolved that night... she slept in my arms for the first time in a couple of months.

Tonight, I was working late, and when I called her I asked if we can talk again later. I wanted to ask her more about her idea that she can't love me the way I want to be loved. It occured to me that I don't know how she perceives this... maybe we are just looking at it differently but not really all that far apart. I was going to ask again about the Emotional questionaire and/or getting help.

She asked to talk to me on the phone... what was it about, so I told her my question so that she could think about it for later. By her reaction, I knew that she had already made up her mind.

We talked more on the phone. I was a little upset that it was so easy for her to make this decision. But in the end, I said ok... we would separate. She asked me why I was so ok with the decision. I told her I wasn't... I didn't want to separate, and I am concerned for my kids... but I am not going to beg or plead... after all that we have gone through, that I am worth more than that. If she does not know now what she is giving up, then there is nothing left to talk about.

When I gave my boundary, I was prepared for this response... I hoped it wouldn't be this, but I also was not saying it this time as an ultimatum to manipulate her to change.

It is her choice not to change. It is my choice to choose to no longer live in that situation.

I just am afraid for the kids.

What really bothers me is that she is more upset about the idea of giving up our dogs to move into an apartment, then she is of giving up me.

I am guessing that she will probably have her Mom move in with her someplace. I wish them both luck.

One last thing... I know that many here will be banging on the computer saying... the A is not over. I am 99.9% certain the A is over... but not certain where her heart is at.

Shaden

Shaden:

Welcome back.

But I have to run, Will keep in touch...

LG

Shaden it is my experience that in your situation the affair is ongoing. There are several key statements in your post.

I'm very sorry but I guarantee there is contact. You just aren't looking hard enough in the right places.

It is possible. I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee it but it is not outside the realm of possibilities.

However, this could be a case of Bob Pure's Recovery Step 9. Where the BS stands up and says "I MATTER"...and demands MORE of the relationship. The BS demands that his/her needs be met.

Mrs. Shaden has failed to do ANY work and remains foggy. She unwilling to put forth any effort nor accept any blame for what occurred in 2005. She's stuck. Her pride and her resolve forbid her from saying "What do I have to do...you name it...anything". She'll sheepishly inquire about what he needs and discard ANY and ALL suggestions that will force her to feel any consequences for her inappropriate bygone behavior. She's actually comfortable being non-interdependent. Simple...fear of real intimacy. I'd almost bet she's an only child with how stubborn she's behaving.

She may still feel the affair was her intended path but reality has made her stuck with Shaden. It's still Shaden's fault she never obtained her soulmate and she may still be punishing him. Her fantasy resentments are still present and unresolved and NOW with less income in the house other resentments are being brought to bear. It's too much to look inward so if Shaden wants to be the bad guy she understands. Whatever will be, will be attitude...afterall SHE is the victim here.

Another thought. Her insecurity and fear paralyze her from getting help. She fears facing ANY consequences. She's definetly more comfortable coasting through life than digging deep and resolving her childhood and/or adult issues. Nobody gets inside...SHE doesn't get hurt and nobody sees the mess. In this instance...you may have to listen REALLY REALLY close...she just may be silently screaming.

Shaden has made the stand...I presume that means he will follow through. I've kinda rambled because I am inexperienced with this situation. As far as continued contact...I think Mrs. Shaden could have been a lot meaner to Shaden over the last year IF getting him to be the bad guy and divorce her was her goal. She's not that fogged out acting...just apparently stuck and unwilling to do anything about it.

Sorry guy. I've seen friends here that got to this point, made a stand and things DID end up changing. Mortarman comes to mind...he endured a year long false recovery, two divorce proceedings which fortunately never made it through the year long waiting period and FINALLY a light bulb went off in his wife's head. NOW she's a marriage builder believer.

I apologize to your wife if she ever reads this. I am NOT a psychiatrist and my assertions above are only guesses and ramblings hoping if I throw enough out there something will resonate. You've got me stumped. I like to believe the best in people but you may just be stuck in a hateful-bitter mindset. YOU certainly know more about yourself than me. I sure wish she'd join in. MB has been a Godsend to Mrs. W and I. Even if she just posted a little while (maybe go to the recovery board with new names) she could eventually come around and buy in to MB and your marriage. It's a lot easier and more "fun" to do than buying a bunch of books, filling out what she thinks are silly questionaires and/or going and paying for marriage counseling sessions.

You really don't have much to lose by bringing her here Shaden.

Godspeed

Mr. Wondering

I do think there is most probably contact but don't disagree with MrW.

Without issuing ultimatums, a boundary of not living in a loveless marriage is in order.

She needs to poop or get off the pot. And disturbing her comfort level may achieve that.

BK, I almost wish and hope that you are correct about the reignited A. Atleast this would give me an answer as to why.

I have seen enough on here over the past couple of years to not rule out the possibility... and the theory of it does sound like she would still be in the A... or a new one (she has had 3 to this point) but the physical evidence (not much time away unaccounted for, no computer or phone evidence, etc.) makes this one hard to believe. It is not that I don't believe she is capable... I do believe it now. I just don't think that is the answer.

I do think Mr. W. may have some of it... about her fears and her ideas. I believe she does not know how to love and is afraid. I look at her past... problems with father figures, etc.... her Mom's A's, her older sister going through a separation and leaning on her over the past few months, the fact she is a twin... without her own identity. There is a lot of issues there. But I also don't want to just point to her "childhood" and take the easy answer.

I don't understand any of it. I have demonstrated a willingness to meet needs, in my case, I have had to work hard at backing off on "giving"... I was too smothering in the past. I have been a pretty good father and husband. I do get it if she were to say that I am boring or there is no passion and believes she needs this. But for someone to say she loves me, to have a husband who is very good to her and for the sake of the children... to not even try. That's what I don't get.

I would have moved mountains to learn new behaviours that would have enhanced our marriage... but she would never tell me what she wanted or needed in the marriage... and yes I asked many times. I also worked at becoming more independent, and have pretty much rid the fear of losing her... which could have been a smothering problem in the past. I have stood up for myself throughout this past year and let her know when I was not happy.

I know I am not yet there in any aspect, but the desire to be there was huge and real changes were evident. I don't understand why she wouldn't even try.

If she were having an A... then atleast I would know why.

Mr. W.... I do have some small hope that she is still "negotiating" and will come to her senses. But for my sanity and for the fact that I am not setting out boundaries just as a ploy to have her change... that they are real boundaries for my own protection... then I won't dwell on this hope. My prayers are simply for faith that I will be happy in the future and that my children will get through this.

Shaden

One thing I forgot... as for bringing her to MB, I thought I would have had an opportunity, but she has no interest at this point.

I'm sorry to hear it has come to this, Shaden. But not sorry to see you taking a stand for yourself.

For some help with this part...
click here.

--SC

Shaden - Our sitch is very similar. While my FWW has not ruled out anything, she still is not really on baoard with M recovery. Like you, I'm 99.9% sure NC is in place. I guess you just don't get that other 0.1% until the FWS really gets behind things so to speak.

So like you, about a week ago, I told my FWW my boundary. I'm not going to stay in a M like this. She says she understands, and wants to work on it, but I can tell, it hasn't really clicked.

So finally, I set up a MC with SH. My FWW won't go to those anymore. Basically I said, WTF is going on. My FWW is waiting to fall in love with me before she does any of the activities that you say are essential to falling in love. And I've been busting my butt to be super husband, meeting her EN's, etc. and it all bounces off her like bullets off of superman.

My thread on independent vs. interdependent summarizes a lot of what he told me. Its basically about personal belief systems. I don't know if I get it fully or not and I'm trying to hash that out, but a lot of Mr. W's ramblings are very much on the mark.

3 affairs Shaden?

I assume you've told me that many times.

Perhaps the fear of intimacy also includes an invisible wall of dishonesty.

I wonder what you don't know?

Perhaps she can't get close to you, lest she has to let you in to EVRYTHING she's done in the past. I have seen honesty breakthroughs and revelations very late in the game which released the wayward spouse from being emotional stuck. You maybe could press for "before I go I want to know ALL the truth about my life and our marriage" talk versus "I need to know what you want" talk. One thing I like about that is she is seemingly making your potential separation your choice. She can go on playing the victim then...my husband left me. Doesn't really matter much but perhaps pushing for all the truth and if she is unable to be completely open and honest about your marriage you'll have a better reason than I just don't feel loved and my wife had some affairs years ago.


The other options/possibilities:

She's a serial cheater which may be an indication or symptom of borderline personality disorder, narcisism, bi-polar, uni-polar, clinical depression, etc OR just an evil demon possessed person. Regardless...if she won't see help, you have no choice.

Mr W:

Shaden posted alot about his marriage and relationship and his wifes pre-M life on his earlier thread. Around November I think. He jumped off the Heartsore thread and started one. His W does have alot of pre M issues with abandonment.

I do not know how to link to it. But I will go look for it and bump it.

LG