This is part of a series of threads that are more speculative than practical. They involve discussing some Christian and/or Catholic doctrines and the effect on marriage of believing those doctrines. I, a bachelor, seek to gain insight from the married.

Thanks to all who participated in my first thread. It seems to have reached its natural end as a moderate success. Some people other than me said it was interesting. A few even found it emotionally valuable to them to have discussed the topic. So I am encouraged to proceed.

THE FOG

A great discovery for me on MB was “The Fog”. Here’s how I visualize the process:

Wayward mentality -- entitlement, resentment, and selfishness – creates moral confusion that allows a normal, apparently responsible adult to fall into A. The moral, mental, and metaphysical dislocation of being in an A magnifies these three mental states immensely, and the WS enters the “Fog” or, to put it another way, is replaced by the Alien.

Specifically:
-- the history of the M is rewritten so every good thing is forgotten and every bad thing multiplied in importance; (magnified resentment justifies the A)
-- Any pain felt by anyone except WS or OP is ignored. (magnified selfishness justifies the A)
-- Any prior belief that actions can be wrong is replaced by a belief than a strongly-felt feeling justifies any action. (magnified entitlement justifies the A)

I’m eager to understand this “Fog” better so if anyone has insight into this process, please comment.

CONFESSION

Several practicing Catholic posters in the first thread had experienced an interesting though painful situation. Their WSs went to Confession every Saturday, received Communion in church every Sunday, then resumed the A.

I’m not sure how other people practice Confession. For me that would mean getting down on my knees in front of a priest, accusing myself of being an adulterer, and answering any of his questions and listening to his advice and admonitions. Then in the Act of Contrition, a formal prayer, I would acknowledge that by committing this sin I have risked my own eternal damnation, crucified Our Lord, and offended Almighty God. Still in the Act of Contrition I would promise God to reform my life with the help of His Grace. Then the priest would assign some kind of penance that I would need to perform before receiving Communion again.

QUESTIONS

I wonder if this habitual Confession might possibly reduce the “Fog”? Did these WSs fall into the usual Fog-induced devaluation of the whole M? Did they start expecting others to find their A acceptable because of their feelings of love and having found a “soul-mate”? Did they become blind to the pain their A was inflicting? Did they indulge in as much Fog-babble as other BSs report?

I also wonder if this behavior doesn't create hardness of heart. Being aware of the pain created and the wrong and continuing the A anyway seems somehow more horrifying than being blinded and confused, even though one is partially responsible for one's own blindness.

I really can't answer your question directly. My WH and I were born into the catholic faith. I remeber thinking when we were going out and eventually getting married that it was wonderful that we had that common up bringing.
My IL are very religous... going to church every Sunday and evey Holy day of obligation.
When we first were married we went to church every Sunday even when we were on vacation. We found some wonderful churchs out there. Slowly that started to decline. I found this past 1 1/2 years I only think my WH stepped inside of a CHurch twice... once was last Easter with my family ( I had to work) and for a wedding this past fall. I don't even think he went to Church on Christmas. How sad.
He told me that he already asked for forgiveness from his god...but has not stopped committing adultry with someone elses wife. I think he is just hiding from this, much easier to ignore then face your own demons. What I find really sad is that he probably will expect to still play for our church softball team in the christian league!!! They say a prayer before each game!!
So I think my WH just doesn't go there because it is easier that way. I don't think his other "friend" is much into faith of any kind.

SH01

Hi Athansius. I'm not entirely sure what direction you may be wanting this thread to take as you are talking about two different, although somewhat connected, topics....the mental state of a "Fogbound" person and the area of Forgiveness of sin.

With respect to the Fog, you have listed a fairly good and concise description of the mental state that results in sinful actions, so I'm not sure if there is much more to "add" to that.

With respect to Confession and Forgiveness, there is quite a bit that can be discussed. Much of it is "tied" to the issue you stated at the beginning of your post regarding going to Confession (or to Church, or whatever) and "feeling better" and then going right back into whatever the sin was (in this case, adultery).

So let me begin an "answer" to your question with a clarifying question, if I may.

What does a "Mortal Sin" mean, what effect does the commission of a Mortal Sin have on one's status before God(i.e., Salvation) and how is one "Saved," (assuming that one needs to be Saved before one can be forgiven of sin by God)?

This is at the heart of your discussion and in Man's relationship to God.

So I will await your answering information before posting anything more.

God bless.

I went to confession every week from the time I was 7 until I was 25. I sincerely was sorry and tried to do better the following week.

I very much doubt that there are very many WS's that go to confession, and then continue to commit adultery the following week. I think this is based more on an old criticism that non Catholics have toward Catholics.

However, it happens just as frequently in the non Catholic Christian church. Instead of relying on confession, these Christian WS's rely on being saved. My WH lived with OW while lying about it and continuing to go to church, and serving as chaplain in a men's group.

When I mentioned that adultery doesn't fit in with being a chaplain and leading men in prayer, he told me that he is saved, and that takes care of it.

But, like you, I would be interested in hearing from Catholics whose spouse goes to confession and continues in the same sin.

there's "going to confession", and there's "confessing you are committing adultery".
the two are not the same.

I would be surprised if they confessed the adultery

believer - if one is truly saved, then it does "take care of it" with respect to forgiveness of sin. That IS what God's forgiveness is all about.

However, SAYING one is saved is NOT the same thing as actually being saved.

Let's be very clear about one thing, Scripture clearly defines unrepentant adulterers as NOT being in heaven. If they are not in heaven, it is equally clear that they were never saved to begin with. When Christ says, "away from me you evildoers, I never knew you," that means exactly what it says. They were never saved regardless of how they might "think" they are saved or what they may have done that leads them to believe that they are "good enough" to make into heaven on their own merits.

God bless.

IMO, any person, Catholic or Protestant, who continues to participate in religious activities while in an A, is in an even deeper fog.

They come into God's presence with a lie on their lips.

Adam and Eve at least had the sense to hide from His face.

Don't you think it would be easier for someone who knew they were in darkness to realize their deep need of God, than someone who had been trying to pretend they were already in the light?

Neak, I'd have to spend some time in a theological discussion about this to perhaps be able to give you an answer. But rather than do that at this time let me simple say that the "short answer" is "no." The reason it is "no," in my humble opinion, is that there is only light or darkness. Man is incapable of coming to God on his own. Many do think that can do something, or "choose God," independent of God, but that is not Scriptural.

People "convince themselves" all the time that what they are "doing" is right, but in the final analysis it is God who decides, not mankind. The "self righteousness" you speak of is just as blinding to the truth as is being in a darkness that doesn't even acknowledge God.

I'm not sure of myself in religious discussions, but I am a former wayward wife who went to confession during her affair. So I thought I'd just post here what the priest told me.

My affair was emotional not physical, so not actual "adultery" but I knew it was wrong which is why I confessed.

The priest had an interesting response. He said that feelings, even my feelings of love for the OM, were not wrong. He told me I was not in sin, in fact, because there had been no adultery. He suggested that whenever I thought of OM, I should instead pray for my husand. He told me that my feelings for OM would fade (since emotions are transient) but that my marriage vows were permanent. He asked me to focus on that part of my life- the permanent part. He told me to keep my actions in line with the vows I took (in other words, stay away from OM!!!)

I also want to add that I went to church every Sunday while I was wayward, and pleaded with God to help me stop the affair. I don't know if God intervened or not, but the affair did end.

I believe it was Cherishing who stated that her WH did this. At least one of the posters described this situation. I doubt there are very many either. But it would be very interesting to know how it affects the Fog, wouldn't it?

I believe emotions come from nature, sins from the will.

Personally I find it very hard to discern when unpleasant emotions like anger or desire are still entirely natural movements and when I'm encouraging them to grow into hate or lust and so have started sinning. Sounds like you felt guilt for the emotions but the priest felt you weren't in fact encouraging them so you hadn't sinned.


It sounds like he gave you great practical advice on dealing with your emotions, staying focused on reality, and avoiding further emotional contacts which possibly might have led to a PA. It sounds like going to Confession was a great help to you.


You asked for His help and grace both in private prayer and in the Confessional. He surely deserves some of the credit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Generally one should confess every sin one can remember.

If they were committing adultery and didn't confess it, they wouldn't be able to receive Holy Communion.

Although, of course, that rule also depends on the conscience and education of the individual for its effectiveness.

Hi ForeverHers! Sorry I didn't get back to your last post in the first thread. I was away for two weeks.

The close connection I see is that one of the psychological effects of the Fog is to make the WS not realize how wrong the A is, and during Confession, the WS vocalizes a self-accusation, kneels, hears a priest admonish him, etc. As a purely psychological thing, it seems to go directly against one of the Fog-effects. And so I'm curious as to what effect it has.

Dear ForeverHers,

I will answer this a few minutes on my new thread, "The Arguing about Religion Thread"

If he's not going to church, he's not going to Confession, is he? "forgiveness from his god" doesn't sound like a Catholic to me at all. If a Catholic wants to ask forgiveness from God, there's the sacrament of Confession. It's straightforward and objective and you know when you've done it and when you haven't.


I'm sorry for all this. I agree he's probably hiding. But I agree with Neak. I figure it's better for a sinner to preserve the sense of shame somehow than to lose it entirely. At least he is avoiding church and Confession now....so if he does really repent perhaps they can be powerful forces to help him.

Athanasius ~ with a name like that you can't be *Roman* Catholic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think Catholics who go to confession and communion while continuing their adultry are simply:

1. "keeping up appearances" for their family and community (and I think a WS that cares what others think *knows* deep down inside that his or her behavior is wrong)

AND

2. using the habit as a tool of denial...(I can't be THAT bad, I still go to confession!)

Both are signs that there is some awareness of their sin - the fog is NOT complete.

But therein lies the hope, while the confession is not valid if there is no true remorse and reparation...there is still grace to be received in that regular contact with the sacraments.

God loves us without reserve and with mercy that we can not comprehend. The WS may be hypocritical in the extreme; but that does not mean that God can not or does not allow the WS to receive the grace necessary to find his or her way home.

My Al-Anon sponser used to tell me simply, BR, Let go and Let God git him!

Okay, let's see....are you saying that "Confession," as in the Roman Catholic sense of "Confessing to a Priest," is the "only" relevant form of confession, or are you asking if only Catholics who do practice Confession to a Priest and then continue to sin are "deceiving themselves" and their sins are not forgiven?

But let's be generous here for a moment (I am fairly certain that you have an "agenda" since everything you are writing is tied to Roman Catholic teaching) and just deal with your question on the level of "practical effectiveness in destablizing and perhaps leading to the end of an affair" regardless of what one's personal faith (including the faith of atheism) happens to be.

"I believe it was Cherishing who stated that her WH did this. At least one of the posters described this situation. I doubt there are very many either. But it would be very interesting to know how it affects the Fog, wouldn't it? "

"Confession" in this sense first requires that the adulterer recognizes adultery AS a "sin" and that they are sinning against God. That leaves out atheists and many other "religions" of the world. Where atheists and others may have some convergence is in the realm of personal Morality. They may recognize that their actions are in opposition to "good morals" and that may, in turn, lead to a desire to return to whatever "good morals" they formerly embraced.

So what is the answer to your question, regardless of personal faith? It is that anything that destablizes an adulterous relationship is good. That includes confession to a Priest in the Roman Catholic tradition as well as confession a fellow believer and anything else that begins to allow the light of truth and reality to begin lifting the veil of fog that surrounds self-centeredness (the heart of the "fog"). It matters not if this is being done according to Protestant, RCC, or any other beliefs simply because the act of Adultery is anathema to God regardless of whether or not anyone believes in God themselves. In THIS area (adultery, fog, etc.) the "applicable" thought would seem to be the same as Jesus' instruction to his disciples when they "complained" that others where preaching who were not a part of their "circle." The WORD, with respect to adultery, IS being preached when someone is advised to LEAVE a life of adultery.

That is a completely different thing from saying that leaving adultery has anything to do with saving, or "resaving," someone's eternal soul and their standing before the Lord. That issue is a totally different one that is dependent upon the Lord alone and the "believer's" God-given faith in Jesus Christ.

Put another way, would anyone prefer to live next to rapists, murders, and child molesters more than they would prefer to live next to people who try to live by the "Golden Rule" even though they don't even believe any God exists?

I wouldn't think so because I believe that our "moral law" comes from God and is given to all regardless of their belief in God. That "moral law" didn't spring into being on it's own nor did it evolve, as it is antithetical to the concept of "survival of the fittest."

I'll have a few more comments on your later post, but I guess the "thing to do" will be to take those comments to your "arguing" thread.

God bless.

This public questioning of my good faith infuriates me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If you read the original version of my first post on my first thread, preserved at the end, below the edited version, you will see that I explained my "agenda".

I'll repeat it here.

I am a convert to Catholicism so cannot ignore ANY of the Church's teachings although there are many I do not understand.

Some of those Catholic doctrines concerning marriage are extremely mysterious to my fallible human reason. They seem very stern.

I believe that since the same God created the moral law and human nature, our true happiness and morality must coincide, although due to sin we both mistake what would bring us happiness and long for things which don't. Therefore on these threads I am considering the issue in terms of human happiness and the effect on it of various doctrines.

I have repeatedly stated openly that I am present on MB trying to gain insight into how marriage works. I don't need my own thread to do that.

The hypothesis that I am trying to confirm or refute in these threads is that these mysteriously harsh Catholic doctrines are safeguards against habits and attitudes which lead to misery in marriage. As "Come, O Come, Emmanuel" says: "Make safe the way which leads on high, and close the path to misery."

Therefore each thread is an attempt to see to what extent belief or not in a particular doctrine has affected marriages. That is why your consistent attacks on the belief I am attempting to discuss are so irritating.

I am not trying to convert anyone. If anyone wishes confirmation that I am not trying to convert anyone, please read my first five or six posts on LilSis's thread, in which I propose, and then retract the idea, that she reconcile with the Catholic Church. I believe that withdrawal, prompted by concern for her M, proves the veracity of my assertions that I am respecting the purpose of this website.

Even though I completely infuriated with you, ForeverHers, I do appreciate that this paragraph is a real contribution to the actual subject of my thread.

Your positions seems to be that any discussion of the A with anyone who discourages it helps break through the Fog.

I agree completely.

I have some other thoughts about non-sacramental confessions but at the moment I'm infuriated with you and don't trust you enough to explore them with you.

here's what I don't get...

I have repeatedly stated openly that I am present on MB trying to gain insight into how marriage works. I don't need my own thread to do that.

why do you seek these things here on an infidelity board where people are in huge pain...

marriages here in general are not working....regardless of religious sect

some here are doubting that any and everything in their world is a lie or based on lies...including their faith

infidelity tests greatly on all levels and cores....and I would say that no matter the title of religion...ones faith is greatly tested during this time....

so why seek information on Catholic marriages here when people are in such great crisis....

Some of those Catholic doctrines concerning marriage are extremely mysterious to my fallible human reason. They seem very stern

there are wonderful apologetic sites..
wonderful chat rooms made of Catholics...

I am Catholic...
and have an extremely good marriage for fifteen years with no infidelity ...
I am here as a guest.....
as humbly as I can be with great respect and sadness for those in a battle of such pain...
to try to add not to their pain...

I guess I remain confused as to why as you say you seek advice on marriages...from a board that is full of people's whose marriages are in such crisis they have to focus on breathing just to get through the next few minutes...

respectfully
ARK