Athanasius,

My husband got upset with me for being on Marriage Builders yesterday, and I told him about your threads. They are riviting to me, but I will leave the board for now to accomodate my husband's feelings.

I will leave you with one thought. The Catholic Church does place high value on sacrifice and the redemptive virtue that can be found in suffering. And there is truth to that -- two years ago this month, the mother of a kindergarten girl and a third grade boy died from cancer, accepting with grace a death that came early. That sort of suffering is redemptive. Putting up with inconsiderate behavior by a spouse is not redemptive. In fact, it is evil because your own human dignity is compromised when you suffer by the free choice of a spouse who promised to cherish you. That is why separation can be appropriate even when divorce is not because the marriage is valid and permanent.

There are two great commandments -- to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. The second commandment is love your neighbor AS yourself, not to love your neighbor and not yourself.

To avoid the misunderstandings that could come of misreading Catholic teaching, try Dr. Harley's book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders." The Policy of Joint Agreement is all about following the second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. In marriage, "the two become one" which means every decision should be viewed as positive for both, whether it be buying chips for the home or having another child. Good luck to you.

Cherishing

Athanasius ~ I want to point out that you have to be very careful here....

The command "Judge not lest ye be judged..." comes into play here.

In the abstract, black and white, according to God's laws, adultery is a mortal sin.

But God is a merciful and loving God, God our Father. He is always and perfectly Just, as we imperfect human beings are not.

For a mortal sin to have been committed (either adultry OR receiving the precious Body and Blood of Jesus while in a state of mortal sin) the sin must have been committed in full knowledge and with deliberate consent.

Full knowledge and deliberate consent requires a spiritual state that we (you and I) can not JUDGE. We can judge abstractly that the action is right or wrong, mortal or venial, but we can not know the state of anyone else's soul.

The FOG is certainly a state of altered mentality. Certainly there is some level of free will and consent. But in the altered state of addiction? How can we KNOW? We don't. We can't. We should not even try, it is NOT our job to JUDGE in that way.

I can tell you, in my experiences with addiction, there is a severe lack of emotional, spiritual and practical depth. Grave immaturity runs rampant. Many have opined that addiction arrests the mental/emotional/psychological development of the individual.

Do you hold a 2 year old to the same level of accountablity that you do a 15 year old? Of course not.

Neither does God. So my point is, while adultry is a mortal sin, it is certianly not our place to decide that any particular individual is in the state of mortal sin.

(As a quick aside, the Church is quick to point out that you can't cheat the system by choosing ignorance in order to avoid committing sins! This is why we are obligated to fully inform our consciences before making choices.)

So...when a BS sees a WS continue to go to church, to go to confession, to go to communion...the BS should simply take heart that God is still has a foot in the door of the WS's soul, and let the rest go.

The BS needs to refrain from judging and instead have faith in God.

"Let GO and Let GOD get 'em" is a funny saying but incredibly important for a BS to understand and DO.

Mrs W

I loved reading your story. REALLY!
Why?
Because it is a story of hope ... it is a story of God's love for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You have told us your personal Prodigal Son experience ... and it is beautiful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

repentance is to change the direction of one's life

your story is so beautiful because your low was very low ... which makes your rise so much more glorious

what a blessing God has brought all of us through you telling your story

I am moved, very moved

((( Mrs W )))

Pep

[color:"red"]TA [/color]

I'd like to ask you about this:


I've never understood how the mind/conscience/compartmentalization functioned so effectively in certain well-known Catholic sub-groups ...

specifically, what I can't wrap my mind around is the Mafia families ... usually Catholic, family oriented ...

however, murder and mayhem were just part of a good day's work

TA, I was wondering, have you (or anyone else) given this much thought ... anything to help me wrap my mind around this extreme level of conflicting values?

Thanks

Pep

[color:"red"] TA [/color]

I must confess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I have NO IDEA what you mean here:

[color:"blue"] " People with weak self-concept find it possible to hold multiple realities, and have difficulty resisting alternative ideas." [/color]

could you explain please?

Pep

[color:"red"]Athanasius [/color]

QUESTIONS

I wonder if this habitual Confession might possibly reduce the “Fog”?

Not in my experience, no

Did these WSs fall into the usual Fog-induced devaluation of the whole M?

YES ... but not in a linear fashon ... more episodic devaluation in our case ... when he'd feel guilty he'd devalue our M more to assuage his guilt

Did they start expecting others to find their A acceptable because of their feelings of love and having found a “soul-mate”?

does not apply to my H ... he kept his adultery secret from all but one friend ... and he did NOT confess adultery during confession ... I suppose his adultery was so compartmentalized he was immune during confession ... ?

Did they become blind to the pain their A was inflicting?

blind? NO ... but devoid of any responsibility ... my pain was confussion caused by the lies ... the adulterous believe their lies are PROTECTIVE for the one's they betray

sooooo
the mind of the adulterous says to them ~~~> tell the truth ~~~> cause more pain ~~~> hide the truth ~~~> lessen the pain ~~~> as a kindness, I will tell more lies and hide the truth ~~~>if my BS experiences more pain ~~~>I need to tell more lies to help "protect" from the pain

pretty interesting circle

Did they indulge in as much Fog-babble as other BSs report?

yes
Catholic babble is no different

I also wonder if this behavior doesn't create hardness of heart.

YES, it does create hardness of the heart ... because lying and causing pain must be dressed up as a "kindness"

Being aware of the pain created and the wrong and continuing the A anyway seems somehow more horrifying than being blinded and confused, even though one is partially responsible for one's own blindness.

[b]it is not "more horrifying" ... it is one-in-the-same

my H says of himself during those dark times ... "I was running away from myself as fast as I could go."

Pep, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just trying to wrestle ten million words down to a couple of hundred in my head!

TA

TA ... brevity fits with my age-related issues ... just adding MORE pressure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

It wasn't an offer so much as an announcement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I've already finished it.

Very cool, Ath, thanks so much....feel free to say one for us whenever you feel the calling.

Isn't MB the best? We have people we don't even know praying for us and our marriage....

So very cool. MB is The Bomb. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[my post about MarriedForever's husband receiving Communion while unshriven deleted]

Thanks for the warning. I'll be careful not to judge.

I'm not sure if this came through the post but I did feel horror at the sacrilege rather than judgement of the sinner. It seems so ... self-destructive ... to abuse the Eucharist that way ... like being so delirious with malaria that you shoot the doctor.

Ah. I see a bit better now.

My emotional reaction to MarriedForever's husband's reception of Communion is because I JUDGED both that he was in a state of mortal sin and that he knew it. But I can't know that and it's not my place to decide.

Thanks for pointing out this violation of the Gospel on my part.

Goodbye, Cherishing.

I'm glad they helped you. Sorry to see you go.

I suppose if you really want you can find them again when you come back and read them.

I may be gone by then. Thanks for writing. Goodbye.

God bless.

I sure hope not Ath...I selfishly enjoy reading your posts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Oh I got something...

What you report utterly crushes the hypothesis I put forward...that's more instructive than having hypotheses confirmed....

Scary.

This makes a lot of sense!

Are there be two distinct ways for WS to handle the unquellable conscience? Some people compartmentalize and live two separate and parallel lives, some people are just blinded by fog?

Thanks Mrs. W. I suspect Cherishing might be gone a long time.

And since I'm not here for the same reasons as other people, and I can't help with the practical, advice-giving side of things, eventually I will drift away....

I've already stopped lurking anywhere but LilSis's thread, with which I am still emotionally engaged, but where I am really just cheering and being comforting. The sad, agonizing stories all seem the same now. There really is a script.

That is interesting. The WS's instinct to protect the BS from pain gets warped and follows a path that causes the BS yet more pain.

My apologies if this is a tangent on this discussion.




While reading casually through this thread to learn. The above statements cut thru me right to the gut. Mr W is exceptional. I have read his responses to others in deep pain and now understand the source of his wisdom.

Why did the posts upset me? My marriage and my family is all I have in this cruel, lonely and indifferent world. My home is my refuge (other then inside a church) and to be assaulted by the evil one through my family would be so horrific. I thank GOD that my family was there when I needed them. I pray to GOD that my family is safe from the assault now and in the future.

I dont have much to add to this discussion. I think it is admirable to have some one bring these questions before marriage. I have often wondered if this board ought to be required reading before a marriage license is issued.

I come from a very simple catholic background. From my perspective GOD is mysterious but loving and merciful. I dont have much learning to understand theology and different faiths. When I listen to others (Priests and Preachers) talk about GOD and the mercy of his SON, it all sounds so complicated. I try to read the bible - and just try to understand. Maybe I am just a 47yr old fool. I just know what I know. I do think Adultery is a wolf in sheeps clothing. I suppose the pleasure is so great that one cannot see eternal damnation if it goes on or WS does not care. I am learning about infidelity from other wise folks but it is complex.

Thanks for listening - this has been helpful for me

rwinger

there really is no extent to the cruelty

the day my h told me that he wanted a divorce i went out and sat on the ground in the freezing cold in my pajamas

i sat there and cried and cried

after awhile my h came outside

i told him i was so very scared and i asked him if he would just sit with me

he said cruelly "i want to be alone right now"

i said "please....i'm just so scared...please don't leave"

he said "i have to"

he turned and got into his truck and left

all the time he was gone he never even called to check on me

this man, who i had married because i beleived he would always keep me safe....he swore to it

...........

the day he moved out

through my tears, i said to him......"please don't go. i don't know how to live without you"

he said "i have to" and he gave me a long hug

as he drove off....i have to give him some credit i guess

he called my sister who lived 3 hours away and was at least crying when he said to her "i left and i don't think she's going to okay. i'm not sure that she won't do something to herself"

i guess that he figures he had done his job by passing me off to someone else

.......
when i wouldn't sign his D papers where he calimed outragous lies to try to keep from having to wait the 2 years required for a no-fault divorce

he called and left me message after message

saying "i have a shotgun here. I'm going to blow my head off just like your Dad did. That's what your driving me to do. Is that what you want ? Will you be happy then."

just as Mrs. Wondering said

it's like they hate the person that loves them through all of this. the person they believe is keeping them from thier "happiness"

they see us as disgusting, weak, someone who thinks they owe us something when they owe us nothing anymore.....they really do dispise us

and they really do WANT to hurt us

and yes, my H was raised in a "good" catholic family who went to church together as a family every sunday