This thread actually has nothing to do with Infidelity or Marriage. But I started a series of threads that do, and they provoke some heated religious, philosophical, and theological discussions and arguments.

So I’m going to try to transfer that part of the discussion here and leave the other threads more dedicated to the theme exploring some psychological effects of certain doctrines on marriage. Since in fact the theme is completely alien to the whole website, I figure I might as well put it in General Questions II where people will see it now and then can quickly forget it when interest dies off and it sinks down to page 23 in day or two.

ForeverHers posted on my other thread:

Let me say before I get started how much I appreciate reading your posts on threads other than mine. You have valuable insights. Did you see on a pornography thread how we both jumped in when the Christian faith was insulted? You’ve certainly earned that I respond fully to your many long posts full of important issues.

I apologize but I begin to suspect your good faith, ForeverHers. I have repeatedly explained that I do not want to discuss the actual justification of the beliefs whose psychological effects I wish to explore on my "Catholic Doctrines & Marital Happiness" threads. You repeatedly ignore that request and TJ by asserting that they are not true and presenting the competing theology which you believe. You are distracting my posters and myself by forcing us to defend the beliefs rather than expore their effects on marriage.

I don’t wish to discuss religion with you at all for a number of reasons.

First of all, are you sure it’s appropriate to have this kind of religious discussion at all on a board dedicated to building up marriages? I don’t see how this is going to build up anyone’s.

Second of all, I’m not sure of your intentions towards me. Are you concerned for my personal salvation? Is being a Catholic a risk to my eternal bliss? As far as I can tell from introspection, I still have the fiducial faith that Jesus Christ is my only hope of salvation and I’m not trusting my good works to get me into Heaven. I just do them out of love for Him, because He told us to love each other, thanking Him for the grace of knowing Him at all and wanting to do good works. As far as I understand Protestant theology I should still be saved, no?

Are you trying to convert me to Protestantism? I should warn you then that between February and May 2005 I faced a terrible spiritual and intellectual crisis and spent those three months in deep prayer, reflection, and study of the Scriptures. At the end I felt that I faced a choice between becoming a Catholic or a complete skeptic. Do you think it’s better for a man to be a Catholic and keep his faith in Jesus or become a complete skeptic and lose it?

So, with this background, I don’t feel there’s any way I can become a Protestant again unless we go into very long and very complex discussions of philosophy, Biblical exegesis, the relationship of faith and reason, the nature of texts and language itself, the history of Christianity and its dogmas, the typology of heresy, and possibly some other things. You would have to convince me of all kinds of propositions in those other areas to recreate the ability for me to keep my faith as a Protestant. I have already spent a great deal of time thinking over these things carefully and chose to become a Catholic. I feel that there’s a significant risk that if you succeed in detaching me from the Roman Catholic Church I will just lose my faith altogether. Are you willing to undertake the long, hard discussions necessary for me to become a Protestant? Do you have the time and the knowledge for it?

Aren’t you concerned about possible damage to BSs on this board who are Catholic? Surely their attachment to their current denomination is an important ally in their struggle to save their M. Whatever denomination it happens to be, the church a BS attends at the moment is the connection with Our Lord, God’s Word, and the community of Christians. Aren’t you afraid that you might jeopardize their connection to their denomination without being able to replace it with one to a Protestant denomination? IF our salvation is not at risk for being Catholic, it seems more charitable on your part to refrain. I certainly felt on my first thread that you and MEDC were so busy attacking the doctrine of the indissolvability of marriages that you did not notice several of your sisters in Christ had structured their whole M around that belief. What would have happened to them if you had succeeded?

What about me? Is it even ethical for me to reply to your arguments? What about Protestant BSs on here? What if one of my arguments detached a BS from her denomination without convincing her of Catholicism? Wouldn’t that damage her in the middle of the worst nightmare of her life? If you read my first five or six posts, you’ll see that while lurking I recognized that LilSis was a cradle Catholic estranged from the Church. I suggested she go to Confession for spiritual strength. As we discussed it, it turned out her WH was an anti-Catholic Dutch Reformed and she hadn’t practiced Catholicism since she was a girl. For all intellectual and spiritual purposes she’s more or less a Protestant. I MYSELF RETRACTED MY SUGGESTION. Because I judged that reconciling with the Catholic Church would actually harm her M. Perhaps my understanding of charity is mistaken. What do you think? Should I have tried to convince her to return to what I consider the true faith even though that would have obviously created more problems in her M?

Are you just trying to convince me that some Catholic teachings or some of my opinions are wrong? Many of my opinions are almost certainly wrong. I would appreciate being shown if they are. But as for Catholic teachings, one of my (Catholic) first principles denies the validity of private interpretations of Scripture in areas where the Catholic Church has spoken. So it’s a waste of time for you to try to convince me, for example, that Protestants are right about what St. Paul meant in Romans, until you’ve altered that first principle. But altering that first principle is the same as converting me to Protestantism. In the meantime, EVEN IF I can’t respond to your arguments I will trust the Catholic Church and not you when it comes to interpreting Scripture.

Do you see now why I didn’t want to discuss all this?

Dear ForeverHers,

Another thing: I feel your zeal against Secular Humanism is making you misunderstand what I’m trying to do in my threads. I’m not a Secular Humanist. I used to be an atheist so there may well be traces of that left in me, but I pray the love of Christ will so grow and fill me to expel them completely.

I AM trying to use my human reason to understand God’s will for us in marriage.

I suspect that you don’t get what I’m doing because of our differing positions on the relationship of Faith and Reason and on the relationship between God’s Justice and God’s Goodness. But that’s something we could discuss.

Dear ForeverHers,

I think we have a lot of common ground already so maybe we should explore that first, before we start shouting at each other about the Confessional and what Paul’s letter to the Romans actually means? Might make the discussion more pleasant, more Christian, more useful. Everything I say below is an assumption as to what you believe so please correct me if I’m mistaken.

Revelation

We both believe that God has revealed Himself in the Old and New Testament books. We believe almost all the same books are Holy Scripture. I assume you don’t accept certain books of the Old Testament, which you call “Apocrypha,” that I do, and call “Deutero-Canonical.” We both believe there’s such a thing as truth. We both believe that religions are not all equal and do not all teach the same thing, but vary as to their worth based on the degree to which they teach or depart from that truth. We believe God has revealed truth to men out of His love for us.

God and Christ

We both believe Jesus of Nazareth was the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God. Beyond that I’m unsure. Do you believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived Him? Do you believe that He was both fully God and fully man? Do you believe He was the Divine Word made flesh? Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth is actually one being with God the Father? Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?

History of Salvation

We both believe He died on the Cross but rose again. We both believe this event is the central event in human history and makes possible our salvation. We both believe He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead. We both believe that human souls are immortal and will be in either bliss or agony. Do you believe that in the resurrection we will be reunited with our physical bodies, transformed and glorified?

Were my assumptions right? Can you think of any other common ground?

Dear ForeverHers,

Our differences seem to be on:

The relationship between Faith and Reason
How Revelation functions
Authority in the interpretation of Scripture
The existence and role of the Church
The history of Christianity
Methods of Biblical exegesis
The relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation
The means by which Our Lord currently forgives sins
The process of Justification

I’ll bet we disagree about the Eucharist, as well, but I’m just guessing based on general Protestant tradition.

Can you think of anything else that's come up so far?

Dear ForeverHers,

For the record, this is my position in outline:
(Protestant BSs please close your eyes!)

I completely reject your claim that Catholic theology is anti-Biblical and anti-Apostolic. On the contrary I think Catholicism fits the whole Bible, the actual history of Christianity, human reason and human nature much better than Protestant theology. That’s why I became a Catholic – because it seemed more Biblical, not less. (Do you see how we do share some first principles? Being Biblical matters to me.)

I believe Protestantism fits exactly the historical typology of heresies. I think it's an example of "another gospel" which has promoted human misery. I think the doctrine of "Salvation by Faith Alone" is an idiotic misunderstanding of St. Paul who was trying to reassure his converts they could be saved without circumcision, and ignores the gospel of Matthew and the letter of James. I think it leads fairly quickly to a belief that one's own salvation is assured and that leads to complete disregard for the Biblical moral law, as numerous BSs on this board attest. It also leads directly to Calvin's double predestination, which contradicts the Biblical dogma that God is loving and wills the salvation of all men.

I think the first principles of Protestantism are absurd, self-contradictory, annul themselves, promote pride, and make nonsense of the very idea of Revelation.

Dear ForeverHers,

And please pray for me! Hopefully we’ll meet in front of the Throne and sing hymns to the Lamb together -- whoever’s right! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, that was a relief to get off my chest, after bending over backwards to be nice to people for a couple of weeks.

MB, meet Athanasius in Plan F/U. I wonder if I should go to Confession now?

God, I hope no one actually reads this thread.

Just in case MEDC ever shows up here:

Dear MEDC,

Your comments on my first thread were all emotional, not intellectual. So here’s my heart-felt not-at-all-intellectual response to the lot of them:



Please come back to the Church.

We need you inside.

I need you inside.

We need your fire.
We need your zeal for righteousness.
We need your love of truth.
We need your courage, your moral fiber, your quick insight.

We need you inside, rebuilding…not outside, tearing down.

I don’t feel you really care about the theological disputes. Please don't take that as a DJ -- I just notice that you ignored the intellectual questions posed to you and kept responding emotionally. Your emotions hint that you don’t really believe the Protestant claim that the RCC stopped teaching the true Gospel eighteen hundred years ago. I feel your terrible rage shows that you feel betrayed…not by one denomination among many…and a particularly corrupt one….but by the true Church. The worst betrayal possible.

I pray that you’ll return to the Church and join or start a lay organization…something like a union for the laity…so the hierarchy can never betray the laity again as they did….I pray that someday Cardinal Rigali or his successor has to sit across a negotiating table from YOU and explain what safeguards are in place and how they’re working. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I pray I someday get to see a weaselly bishop squirm in front of your rigor, your fire, your thirst for justice.

This has to be done. I want any children I may have to be safe. But I can’t do this. I don’t have the personality or the history. I need you. We need you.

Noah’s Ark, the Bark of Peter, looks a bit like it’s sinking right now. Some of the officers deserve a court-martial. It stinks in here. I’m chest-deep in bilge water trying to fix the leaks. No one blames you for jumping off. But please get back on the ship and start helping. Help us by court-martialling the officers who drilled all the holes.

Or would you rather spend the rest of your life swimming?

Come back. Stop being another victim of this. Become a saint.

Wouldn’t you be happier?

hmm...

interesting thread kind of... i have not ready any of the threads of yours or FH's, so i certainly won't even try to comment on those.

my 2 cents is this: i personally do not believe in "religion" whether is be baptist (which is what i am now), catholic (which is where i started), or any other religion for that matter. the bible even states to be careful of "religions". i believe in the bible. i believe everything it says. i go to the church i go to because i find that it most closely does exactly was the bible states. no fluff, no pomp and circumstance. cut and dried word of god. i have no problem with the catholics, i run an afterschool program at a catholic school and sub there. the only issue i have them is teaching kids to pray to saints, the bible says we do not need to pray to anyone but GOD, and are not supposed to. once we accept christ as our savior, we are a saint. i go straight to the source. i confess my sins straight to the source. if you choose to go to confession i suppose that is entirely up to you, but the bible says go straight to god for confession. i always thought it was the silliest thing that you confess to a priest, he tells you to go and say a few hail mary's and all is better. but, that is just a "religion" thing.

i personally just stick with the bible facts. as long as you accept christ as your savior, you are saved. i don't care what church you go to, thems just the facts. god, not church, has been my complete and utter source of strength and i personally put all of my cares in his hands and he gladly takes care of me each and every day. i do happen to have a wonderful church family as well who has been there for everything for me.

many, when faced with marital issues and infidelity, find church and god to be a complete comfort. again, to me, as long as you know the bible to be the truth and that is what you believe it matters not to me where one attends church. i personally, cannot attend one that doesn't follow what the bible states, or one that adds a lot of unecessary fluff. i want a church that sticks the facts. that is me.

for me, "religion" is NOT what the bible is all about. i think many religions just add a lot of tradition, a lot of ceremony that means absolutely nothing to god.

bottom line is: marriage is supposed to be sacred. my ex and i made that vow before god in the church. (baptist it happened to be). marriage is to be taken seriously. my ex cheated more times than i can count. i had 2 choices. put it in god's hands and stay in the marriage and try (which i did at first) or end the marriage, which, according to the bible, i had every right to do once that first infidelity happened. my gut told me, my inkling from god was, get out because he is never going to change. in god's eyes, NONE of us has to stay in a marriage once there has been adultery. god HATES adultery! it is straight up in the bible. if my ex had just made a mistake, was remorseful, turned to god, wanted forgiveness, etc.. i would have stuck it out. but he did not. he had no remorse, no interest in god, and just kept going and going from woman to woman. nope, i don't have stay for that. i do believe god is pretty specific about that.

it is churches and religion that make any other rules outside of this. because of adultery, i can divorce and still remarry in my church because god says i can divorce on those grounds.

and off on a tangent i went.
sorry.

long story short, i believe in the bible, and not in religion.

that would have been a lot more short and sweet now wouldn't it?? lol

mlhb

Athanasius ~ this thread is beautiful.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for that lovely post. Much appreciated. I do have a lot of emotion tied up in my dealings with the church. I will tell you that I deal with the church at least several times per month regarding the issue of safety for children in the flock.

A, I am very happy where I am right now in terms of my relationship with God. I still care about the church and do not want to see it torn asunder. In fact, I want it to thrive... otherwise I would not bother to bring to their leadership the issues that are helping tear it down. I would love to see a response from the church that gives me reason to question my decision to walk away. To date, I have yet to see that.... and it isn't because I am not looking. I too pray for a brighter day for the church. God is surely at work with some of the leaders and many of the followers that still call themselves Catholic. As I have said before... one of the most Christian people I know is my brother and he is Catholic to his core.
I have a difficult time right now discussing any intellectual issue concerning the RCC without having my emotions enter into the discussion. Because some of the things that I have helped bring to the attention of its leadership are still being supported by that same leadership, I do feel betrayed beyond words. But I will say that I have seen some good come out of what has happened. I know that today the children are safer than they were just 5 years ago. I know that today the leadership, while still painfully slow to respond to past offences are more careful how they handle todays offenders (even if they are being motivated by something other than their conscience).
For now I must continue my efforts from the outside. But rest assured, I want nothing more than to see the church live up to its promise. Bottom line in my thinking is that even though there are divisions in Christs Church which have resulted in far too many denominations (and non denominational) churches... we are all Christians and children of God. Our salvation rests in our hearts and our relationship with God... not whether we say Hail Mary's or "talk" with God. The Lord sees what is in our hearts.... man.... those that divided the church look upon the flesh... God sees in our hearts. Mine right now is calling me to stay the course, pray and to be an advocate for the small voices in the house of God.
I will promise you one thing though...I plan on returning for a service (oops, mass) some Sunday soon(I actually make a point to go to services at churches other than my own quite frequently but have avoided the RCC). I will leave my anger at the door and pray for His direction.
Thank you again for your kind and
inspiring" words.

MEDC

"The Arguing about Religion Thread"

Gee, how novel, we've never had one of these. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Jo (a Believer)

Athanasius - I can argue both sides of the Catholic/Protestant things. Just give me a bit of time to figure out which side I'm on today.

Very interesting.

I hate the way we can find ourselves labelled ‘Catholic’ or ‘Protestant’. I’ve never been a ‘Catholic’ but I’ve never considered myself a ‘Protestant’ either. I’m just simply a ‘Christian’ and I just go straight to the source of God’s word for answers and help and knowledge of Him.

I grew up in a church that was considered a cult. I don’t regret in any way the way I grew up, but looking back at our doctrinal beliefs I now understand how wrong they were. If I have read and understood correctly what you meant when you said:

“one of my (Catholic) first principles denies the validity of private interpretations of Scripture in areas where the Catholic Church has spoken.

Then I can identify with this as I was taught to trust the leadership of our church, not questioning them (or you were dis-fellowshipped) and that you had no validity to interpretations of Scripture where the church had spoken. I’ll never fall into that trap again. I have learned to ‘work out my own Salvation’ (Phil 2:12) and look to God’s word for truth, because all we need to know is written right in it. Not a church, not a religion, not a pastor or priest. The Bible has the answers to everything we need an answer for. For me, whatever ‘religion’ you are, whatever ‘denomination’ we belong to, if something is being taught that is not in direct line with the written Word of God, it’s false teaching. I’ve been there, done that and will never do it again. (That tends to mean I’m a little more on the sceptical side of things now because I want to see everything and anything which is taught backed up by Scripture).

I’m now part of a different church, who has minor issues I don’t agree with, but who’s basic doctrinal beliefs I feel are totally in line with the Bible. I don’t think I will ever find a church where I will agree with everything spoken from the pulpit, but that’s ok. In the end, we’ll answer to God for everything and He’ll show us all where we’ve been wrong. But our Salvation rests in our belief in His Son and no-one else, and just as importantly, we need to be spreading the good news of the Gospel (because faith without works is dead).

Just my VERY humble opinion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lucyloo,

Right on! Brilliantly written...

Athanasius--

From my perspective, Protestant vs. Catholic vs. Reformed vs. Orthodox vs. Martian . . . all noise in the BIG picture.

Look in any one of those groupings and you'll find sub-groups that secretly or openly distance themselves from each other. Even those religions viewed as "cults" can't keep a cohesive organization most of the time.

For me, it comes down to some Essentials -- facts, beliefs, tenets that should be consistent across any group that claims the broad category of "Christianity" be they Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran or Independent or Methodist . . . etc (there are many so I didn't omit any one group intentionally).

For me, the essentials should be those core beliefs that can be used to distinguish between Christianity and other religions. Many of the topics that we use to "divide" ourselves in Christianity are (or at least should be) preferences or personal choices.

Again, my opinion, but the essentials are (somewhat abridged):

• The authority of Scripture: who authored it, how trustworty is it, what is its purpose
• The existence of a triune God: one who is self-existant, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and loving who created the universe
• Nature of man: a physical and spiritual being who was created in the image of God but is separated from Him by sin -- man's personal transgressions against God's laws and deserving of eternal separation from God
• Jesus Christ: fully God and fully man, came to earth for the purpose of providing the substitutionary sacrifice as the only means to restore man's fellowship with God and be saved from eternal separation from God. He physically died and rose and will one day return.
• Purpose of the Church: a God-ordained institution headed by Christ that is intended to provide for the fellowship, worship, support and building up of believers.

Certainly, there's a lot more on each subject, but I'm trying to be brief.

What's not on the list? Communion/Lord's Supper/Eucharist; Baptism; Confession; King James vs. NIV vs. Living vs. NASB; Tithing; Marriage; Divorce; Drinking; Dancing; homosexuality; Revelations; tongues; etc, etc, etc

I'm not saying that "Christians" can't have or shouldn't have strong OPINIONS on these topics -- I think a mature Christian should have opinions based on their study of scripture and prayer and teaching.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe it is possible for Christians to disagree about the topics NOT on the "Essential" list and still be God-fearing, Going-to-heaven-when-you-die Christians. Will some of us be right about those topics and some of us be wrong? Sure.

The point is that, for me, the Essentials are the core beliefs that I believe people must agree upon to be considered Christians, whether or not they also want to tack on the title of Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran or Episcopalean or .........

Disagree on the essentials and I think you've got a hard time lining yourself up Scripturally with Christianity.

Not judgemental -- just the definition of the group.

Not trying to be exclusionary -- just trying to create boundaries to help determine where individual beliefs align.

Such is my take on things.

And I'll be quiet now.

Thanks

You also need to think about the "religion vs relationship" angle as well. Anyone can become religious about anything, but to me, it's my own personal relationship with God-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that puts me in the catagorey with other God fearing Christians. BUT, I've seen Christianity become a religion and not a relationship. I think I like how Artor has put it in this line:

Disagree on the essentials and I think you've got a hard time lining yourself up Scripturally with Christianity.

Of course, now there will be debates on the essentials, but look to God's Word and you will find the answers.

Lucyloo and Artor.... both very well said!