i found this in "private lies" by Pittman

[color:"blue"] "It is commonplace for guilt-ridden people, after an infidelity, to distance thier unsuspecting mate, whose love makes the guilt ridden feel even guiltier.

The greater the discomfort and the more trusting the mate, the greater the distance needed to protect the infidel from being overwhelmed by guilt.

At the same time, the infidel will seek out the only person who can relieve the guilt-the afairee who was an accomplice in the act, the one who can assure that no wrong has been done.

The infidel and the afairee are thus trapped behind imaginary enemy lines, hiding from the poor trusting BS who gets somehow turned into the source of the painful guilt. The guilt therefore undermines the marraige and fuels the affair."
[/color]

in my situaiton, my H actually said that he felt such guilt and shame when he looked in my eyes because of the pain that he knew he had caused me....that he believed he would never be able to feel happiness when he was with me again.

even when i KNOW that i was learning to forgive and my eyes held no judgement.....that is still what HE felt when he looked at me

after he left, when we would talk about trying to work things out, he repeatedly said he didn't know how to live with me again and not have these feelings

i talked to his counselor....his counselor said that HE believed my H could never face living with me again due to his extreme feelings of guilt and shame because of what he did.....he said that much of their time during our false recovery was spent with him trying to learn how to deal with these feelings........he thought that it just became too much for him (well, i guess it was especially after he started seeing OW again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

and now.........well he HAS built a new life with OW and completely erased me.......and erased his feelings of guilt and shame?

i wonder if this part of why my changes in plan A and my plan B haven't helped to make changes in his thinking

so i'm wondering

1. do you feel this is true

2. for those who left to be with the OP, if the feelings of guilt and shame were part of what drove you away from your spouse, did being away from them, trying to forget them......make those feelings go away? Could you really forget those feelings with OP and "find that happiness"

3. when you finally considered reconciliation.....how did you come to the point that you were willing to try to work through the guilt and shame feelings?

4. HOW did you do it?

eav, I still think that if you want to make contact with your WH, you should do so - as long are you are fully prepared for him to reject you or fully prepared to hear nothing from him at all.

You need some closure here, one way or another. You are living in total limbo. Plan B is no longer protecting you - it has left you floating in a blind abyss. I don't think that is its purpose.

Maybe others here can weigh in as well.
Mulan

Excellent question Eav...

I too wonder the same thing. I truly think that my WH feels that he could never undo all the hurt he's caused me and the kids, so it's easier for him to cut his losses and walk away. He was never into admitting he was wrong about anything.

When we were in family counseling I could see he was guilt ridden. The counselor mentioned to me later the same thing.

Hopefully FWS's will answer how they felt and how they were able to come home again.

thanks mulan

Jennifer has recommended that i continue to wait this out

I'M not ready for rejection......I'M not ready for one way or the other

I believe that when i get to that point, i might as well just file for D myself

I believe that if i am willing to take that risk, then i will be ready to end to our marraige and give up all hope

Eav,

I have been around here a long time, but haven't really been posting much the past year....but I just had to reply to your post. I am a FWW.....and yes, the guilt and shame can be, and sometimes is, overwhelming. Painful, to be sure. Pardon me for being blunt here, but I believe your WH's excuse, saying his guilt and shame is too much so as to prevent him from being with you again, is a total crock of sh##. It sounds like exactly a line I would have used if I had not wanted to work things out with my BH!

There were times when my guilt and shame were so overpowering, I just wanted to die. BUT, the way i looked at it, it was my cross to bear after what I had done, and that I would bear it gladly because I wanted to work things out. The guilt and shame was mine to own, and yes, my BH's forgiveness and kindness towards me sometimes made my guilt all the more glaring to me, but does that make it his fault that the guilt was overpowering? NO! The feelings were mine, all mine. I knew also, that, given enough time and love and hard work, those feelings would eventually subside. I just kept telling myself, "This too, shall pass" even though in the moment, it didn't feel that way.

Don't know if this helps, and I don't think I'm real typical of WS in that I ended the affair immediately and stuck to NC....so, take it for what it's worth!

HUGS,

NOW

Not..

I am a BS but I think I would have to agree with you on my WH's thinking.

I believe that he just doesn't want to work it out with me and perhaps me thinking that it would be too hard for him to come back home, is just an excuse.

If he really wanted me and the kids, he would find a way to deal with it all I'm sure.

When I talked to Steve, he said it seemed like my WH has a great way of compartmentalizing (?sp) things. I would have to agree.

He never was much for showing emotions at all. I think I saw a glimpse of him being guilt ridden, but who knows. It could all have been an act.

Now after thiking more about it, I truly belive that WH doesn't care a bit about how he's hurting us. I don't think he feels remorse at all.

If he does, he's doing a good job at hiding it.

I agree.

I'm a FWW, and the guilt drove me towards my M, not away from it.

~ Marsh

Pittman was talking about the guilt BEFORE D Day.

~ Marsh

Catgirl,

I would venture to say he probably DOES feel remorse, and his guilt IS real...however, I guess what I'm trying to say is that by using the "I don't want to hurt you anymore" line, or saying he feels too much guilt and can't handle being with you, that it shows he's still being immensely selfish.

I am SURE he knows how hurt you feel, all the pain he has caused...and that does produce remorse and pain in the one who caused it, but he does not want to face his own pain, hence the selfishness....he sees his pain as greater, more important, etc.

I couldn't understand WHY my BH would want to work things out with me, and at times wondered how in the world he could stand being around me when I was really wallowing in the guilt (and along with that, self-pity)....but I had to take his word for it, let HIM decide that is what he wanted to do. To not take his word for it would be the equivalent of calling him a liar. I also told myself "Oh, he'll find out soon enough how miserable he is being with me, he'll change his mind".....but that never happened! (Thank God)

It all boiled down to finally having respect for his decision, and giving it a chance. People are prone to want quick fixes, and when they don't get it, assume it will never work. Also, too much focusing on yourself (when you are the WS) keeps you stuck in the selfishness (obviously).

It is oh so easy to lie to yourself, and even believe it. Maybe the next time they give you the line "I don't want to hurt you anymore", just point out how selfish it is to say that.

NOW

Interesting input about the guilt. I agree with Marsh, I think my talk with WH when I broke Plan B in early December helped to lead H home. I talked of his wife loving him, him still being my H, his son needing his daddy, and about how valuable he was in this M, this life.

He must have experienced some guilt stemming from this as well as his own thoughts.

We watched the movie 'Click' this morning, and we were both tearing up toward the end. It's a great movie about family, family life and wanting more than that, and how more isn't always better...I really felt for my H watching that. I could tell he was moved by the story and the thought of losing it all.

Okay, then, eav. I just wanted to make sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Silent...

How ironic you mentioned the movie Click. I went to see it with DS when it first came out. The first thing I thought of when the movie was over, was that WH should see it. Maybe it would "wake him up". I mentioned to WH later, when the movie came out on DVD, that I had had the DVD and he should see it. He said O.K. but never took it. DS spent the night with WH a few weeks ago. I told him to take the movie so he and his father could watch it. (DS liked the movie). When he got home I asked him if they watched it. DS said no, they didn't have time. I bet WH knows what it's about and doesn't "want" to see it.

Not...

WH saw DS sobbing in family counseling a few weeks ago. DS telling him he wanted his Dad back home. How could that not affect a father? I was crying like an idiot. Yet it didn't affect him. As I said if he has remorse, he hasn't shown one iota.

I have told WH many, many times in person and via plan B letter, that if he leaves OW we could work things out.

I just don't think he wants to be married to me anymore and this is his way out.

Catgirl,

Sounds like he has "hardened his heart". People do that to avoid responsibility and pain...it's a self-preservation thing.

I am so sorry, I do wish I could pound some sense into him!

NOW

i haven't read all the post yet
but wanted to add to my post to mulan

jennifer did tell me that it would be okay for me to send an e-amil through the intermediary that i was still willing to consider reconciliation as sstated in the terms of the plan B letter if i was worried that he might not know

(i DO wonder sometimes that after all this time and since i changed all my numbers and stopped taking his calls and responding to his e-mails he might think that i'm done with him)

and i might do this at some point....

but i have to be honest with myself, if he was interested HE would be hunting me down......he knows where i live and all of my families numbers

look what he went through to be with someone else's wife because he wasn't happy

if he isn't happy with her, i deserve for him to be willing to put forth even MORE effort to be with his OWN wife

i have to believe that if he wanted it bad enough....even if he thought i was done with him....he wouldn't give up until he fought for me

look at all I've done and he said he was done long agao.....and crap I've got plenty of reason to give up

i just keep hoping he isn't ready yet and that's why he hasn't contacted me

if he isn't ready and i contact him....i might stir something up that i DON'T want

my H or OW might decide that filing for D is "the only way to ever get rid of me"

....contact about reconciling FROM him would be great.....if i can't have that....i'm better off waiting

but thanks for "feeling my pain" and caring

Not,

I agree. I think it's more of a defense mechanism for him to avoid reality. I just wonder if one day he will come out from his hole and see all the destruction he's caused.

Eav,

I too think that if WH wanted to be with me he would have found a way. I gave him so many chances to come back.

****One question to all of you...

What do you make of this???

In family counseling last week, the counsleor asked WH if he knew what he wanted. He said "no". The counselor then asked him what it would take for him to get to the point of knowing, and he said "time".

A few days later in court he was asked if he wanted to reconcile with me. He said "no!"

So how can he say he does not know what he wants!!!????

cat

see my post on my thread

i imagine my H thinking of it this way
(when i say "I" or "me" i am speaking as though i am him)

[color:"blue"] one choice-reconciling with my wife: [/color]

a life with a person who loves me deeply, a person who I have so much history with, so many special moments, so much love (even as my H says "i love you like a sister now")

but a person who now holds so much power over our relationship....she is "willing" to give me another chance to "prove myself" even though I am now "damaged goods" and have dissapointed her so much...have broken all of the promises and vows I have made

so what will each day be like? will each day be one where i need to prove myself over and over, where i am questioned, doubted, and made to feel like i'm not worthy? can i live with no trust and having someone question everything i say even if it's the truth

will they always look at me with that "look" the one that shows they are doubting what i am saying

will i face over and over again things that make us both remember what i did? things that make her cry? things that make me feel sick to my stomach....things that constantly bring back the guilt and shame? things that constantly bring back her pain?

even though i deserve it...can i live with it? can i be happy? would she really be happy? can we really ever be happy together again? DO I WANT TO LIVE LIKE THAT?

[color:"blue"]choice two-staying with OW [/color]

a life with someone who loves me, who makes me feel good about myself because they aren't judging.......i haven't hurt her....i haven't crushed her spirit....i haven't broken the promises or vows that i made to her

in fact, i sacrificed so much for her....to prove my love...she thinks i am wonderful

she thinks i can do no wrong...she makes me feel so good about myself

she feels like my wife used to feel about me before all of this happened. she makes me feel like i did before all of this happened

what will every day be like?
it will be like it used to be....with my wife, before all of this happened BUT it will be even better because we are "in love" we have such passion and so much fun! she does all of the things that my wife didn't do with me.

(even though i never asked her too and she did SAY she has changed and would do those things with me now that she knows that they matter to me)

sure, there's stuff i don't like.

our families and friends

they aren't thrilled about it but they've accepted this is the way it is...in fact, they're all treating us like a married couple now that we've been together this long

they all just want us to be happy

i don't like having to share her with her kids-heck i don't even like her kids. i hate having them in my house and in my life

but there are some things i'll have to just acccept

and her H-i hate knowing that she's always going to be connected to him because of her kids...but she says not to worry, that's all it is....she doesn't love him anymore

i hate not having any money. I had so many nice things and i had to give them all up...but i can always replace those things

this is a new beginning for me. a chance to do it right this time

even though it's not exactly what i wanted...can i live with it? can i be happy? would she be happy? can we ever be happy together?


[color:"blue"] anyway, i may be a bit crazy but this is what i imagine.

i think that until/unless the life with the OW begins to make him unhappy......very unhappy....it's easier for him to have his new start...his do over.

until/unless that happens i don't think he would try again with me because of all that HE BELIEVES he would face each day
[/color]

Who would want that infantile entitled piece of steaming crap speaking in these choice perspectives anyway?

Do you not see the selfish self absorbed it's all about me me ME! attitude you have just described?

If you raise your hand eav I may actually pass out in frustration.

You don't want any man who can't face his choices and pursues the easy comfortable way instead of doing what is right.

That man has ZERO chance of making it through recovery.

Zero.

Either he confronts his personal demons or he doesn't.

THIS is the reality that I THINK a WS in his situation faces
I don't think he's any different than others here who were where he is now

THIS is what i believe "the fog" is like

(maybe others here, who have been where my H is, will tell me differently)

and yes, if the day came that my H was able to make the hard choices that others here have made to become a FWS...i would gladly take that man back

On the day he made those hard choices...he would not be thinking and acting from the same paradigm you have described.

Until that day comes he is a rotten selfish worthless exvuse for a man.

If you took that selfish WS back you would deserve every minute of misery and false recovery you got.