What an interesting discussion!!! I step out for the day, and look at what I miss. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

By this time, this is neither here nor there, but when I read the devotional reprinted in my DH's original post, I only took it as talking about a surface deformity, i.e. if AJ somehow had his GONADS (snicker) blown off tomorrow, that I would not leave him just because we could no longer have sex. Or if all his hair fell out, I would not leave him because he didn't look the same as when I first met him.

Since this discussion has progressed loooooooong past that, let me just say what unconditional love for my husband would have meant to me, had AJ not ended his A.

It would have meant that, although I cut him off from my presence - forever if necessary - that I would still lift him before God every day for the rest of my life, asking for God to save him.

Unconditional love NEVER means loving without consequences.

God loves us unconditionally, and yet makes very clear that there is a penalty for bad behavior, i.e. breaking His law: death. It's not what He wants. The Bible says He takes "no delight" in the death of the wicked.

Unconditional love = loving with consequences, yet delighting in mercy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> OMG bald?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


But seriously love does have consequences, like any other choice we take in life.

I believe love can be unconditional it just doesn't stop loving without consequences as you said Neak.
I don't think I'm wise enough to answer what would that love be if the spouse raped/killed your kids or others etc
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Neak, I like how you put that. All I know for sure is, unconditional love is very hard for us humans to practice, but I believe it is what we are called to do.

NOW

Tough question. And yes, so hard for us humans.

I believe Jesus at His death was our perfect example in this.

When all else has been stripped away, all good feelings, any affection, any iota of caring, unconditional love still earnestly desires the salvation of any person on earth, no matter how horrible they are.

It also lets them choose destruction if they will not choose life. It is respectful of their choice, even if it aches with wanting them to choose something else.

For the Christian, anyway, life down here is not what matters most. If your spouse does something awful to your children, then truly repents (unlikely, but with God all things are possible), then unconditional love has won.

Will you want to keep them around as your spouse? Of course not! That is one of the natural consequences of their terrible behavior.

But if they truly repent, and someday you are all standing before God's throne, you, your murdering spouse, and all the children, their will be a restoration of the sort we can only dream of on this earth.

The apostle Paul (formerly Saul) will come face to face with the many people he hunted down and killed. He won't be the only one.

That is the goal of God's unconditional love, and dying on the cross, Jesus prayed that the men who were killing Him would have the chance to experience it.

All,

My husband has had cancer, which we discovered about 10 days after d-day. We have not been able to have sex for quite awhile (but things are looking "up", shall we say?).

The comment about whether or not you would leave someone if they lost their hair or gonads or whatever, well, that sort of hits home, you know?

Here I am, working out d-day, and gonad-blow-away, and here I am, staying anyway, as a BS.

Not to say that I haven't had my "I'm gonna run away" moments. I certainly have had those!

But I stay. The discussion is about whether or not we accept our mate unconditionally, and has now grown into a question about unconditional love.

I recently made a remark that said, "Love may be unconditional, however, relationships ARE conditional."

I'm not so sure that love is unconditional. I think this because I know that I love my FWH enough to love him through all that we have been through, and it still burns strong within me. But I also know that there are conditions under which that love could die. Love dies when you do not feed and water it; when you don't take care of it; when you turn your back on it; and when you attack it so as to beat it down to nothing.

So, is love unconditional? I don't think so. You can kill love by neglect or attack.

Relationships are conditional, too. At least mine are. My marriage is. Life and the living thereof leads to conditions which cause relationships to ebb and flow - and our responses to these conditions make for the state of the relationship. Those responses are choice-driven. The choices, well, let's say that post-A our choices day-to-day are much more conscious than they were pre-A!

The conditions for remaining married in my case are that the choices we make EVERY day will be those that:

enhance US as a couple
enhance our love for one another
enhance our mutual trust
enhance our future together
enhance our bond to one another
secure our fidelity to one another


Those are conditions, I think, mostly expected in the basic marriage.


The concept of "unconditional acceptance" sort of escapes me when it comes to relationships in general, because people come and go in our lives based on their behavior toward us. When they cross a boundary we cannot accept, we have no recourse but to sever ties, regardless of whether or not we love the person, from where I stand. Some boundaries don't allow me to remain in contact, although I can forgive, move on, and still love. I just no longer continue a relationship with the person. In my world, that person is "set free" to live elsewhere, just not in my circle. I don't know if this makes sense to others, but it works for me (as Dr. Phil says).

SB

Love for a spouse should be "conditional". To think you should love your spouse unconditionally is loving without boundaries for yourself which leaves you exposed to mistreatment, unmet needs and expectations.

this is brilliant NEAK !

[color:"purple"] Unconditional love = loving with consequences, yet delighting in mercy. [/color]

pithy & true

Unconditional acceptance does not equal tolerance or agreement. It simply means acknowledgement of reality.

I agree that without unconditional acceptance, unconditional love is not possible....

BUT....unconditional love (an action) is NOT romantic love(a feeling). Romantic love is conditional.

Unconditional love is the love we show even our worst enemies. It requires unconditional acceptance but does not require tolerating abuse.

Unconditional love is required to practice Plan A. Unconditional love requires that we put our Takers on the back burner, and remove our lack of romantic love feelings in order to act with love.

I think that unconditional love is a worthy goal, and a value or motivation that we should aspire too, but I am not sure that unconditional love is perfectly achievable by anyone but God.

Pep - thank you, high praise from the Queen of Pithy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AJ is on his way to San Antonio, TX, currently being in the vicinity of Las Vegas.

Sweetheart, when you get back on here, thank you for the card and the emails. I love you, too!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi, I am in AZ going through the desert in a thunderstorm. The clouds are all purple and weird looking.

storm 1

storm 2

storm 3

This is a really good discussion. All the different viewpoints are interesting. It has been a blessing for me to read, and I hope it was a blessing for you, too.

One more storm picture from Vidal, AZ.

The lightning is so close it's blinding.

Oops, I had the permissions wrong on the pictures. They are now marked public, and you can see them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Hello from the DFW area!!! I hope Texas treats you well!

No waving smilies, darn!

Hi Mom2A&Z, I like that area.

I'll be in Texas in a couple hundred miles.

Not again! Because I did it this way 31 years ago, and look where it got me! Well, that's not quite fair. We could have had a faithful marriage. We just didn't. And so now I have 2 ask myself why I stay. And I think the simple answer is the "deep caring love" that Harley talks about building over a lifetime, without using the term "unconditional love" which is what it is.


Real love = Unconditional love. All other "kinds" of love are conditional, and thus not "real" (more properly, are not love).

-ol 2long

But by what standard is it not "real" love if it is conditional? The conditions of love do not serve to define it.

Like what Dr. Greg Baer says, in the introduction to his book "The Truth About Relationships":

"Most relationships are doomed from the start. Two people who don't have what it takes to be happy come together and expect their partner to supply them with what they need. That's impossible -- two unhappy and incomplete people cannot make each other happy, nor can they create a fulfilling relationship. But they still have those unreasonable expectations, and when they don't get what they want from each other, they become frustrated and angry.

So what's missing? What do we need to be happy? From birth the thing we all want most is to feel loved. But not just any kind of love will do. We need Real Love -- unconditional love -- where people care about our happiness with no thought for what they might get for themselves. It's Real Love when people don't get disappointed or angry when we make our foolish mistakes, even when we inconvenience them personally. Very few of us ever got that kind of love. Instead, people loved us when we were "good," when we did what they wanted us to do. People smiled at us and praised us when we were clean, quiet, obedient, grateful, and didn't fight with our sister. But when we made mistakes, made messes, made too much noise in the car, fought with our sister, got bad grades, dragged dirt across the clean floor, and were otherwise inconvenient, we didn't hear the same kind words or see the same smiles that we did when we were good. Although no one meant to tell us this, we quickly learned that we were loved conditionally.

Unfortunately, conditional love leaves us feeling empty and alone. It feels worthless because we have to earn it. In effect, we have to buy conditional love with our behavior. Without Real Love, we never feel genuinely happy and complete. We then try to fill our emptiness with money, praise, approval, power, sex, and other pleasures, but those things never bring us the real happiness we're looking for. We also establish relationships with people, hoping that they will bring us the happiness we're missing, but if they don't have Real Love to offer, they can't help us, either. And we can't bring any genuine happiness into their lives.

That's why relationships struggle and fail. Two people without Real Love can't possibly have a truly loving relationship."

-ol' 2long

And what Dr. Guy Pettit says here:

"1. CONDITIONAL LOVE

Conditional love is like a kind of bargain with the Universe to give you self-love if you "take care of" people. Tends to make others responsible for your needs and happiness. Includes the "Care-taker ", "Good Prostitute", "Reluctant Martyr", "Rescuer ", stances in life. Wants, and to a degree does get, rewards and approval from others. There are secondary gains in this position, though the price paid is being less than one's True Self.

Possessive, holds on when the other grows or heals...and then needs another needy partner. Expectations++. "I will love you (=take care of you) if you are good, clever, white, black, richer, poorer, sicker or more well than me, male, female...etc..." "I love you and if you love me you must promise me...." etc. Can easily feel victimized/angry again when the conditions are not met. Can make the one loved in this way feel very resentful ("hostile dependency"). Dependent on the approval of others.

"Social Activist Level I" ..."Crusader" ("I will fight for peace, - even if I have to kill or assassinate to get it"). Still angry with personalities and more focused on those than upon issues, therefore oversimplifies. "I will love you if you adopt my point of view, the "right" political persuasion....or do what my parents did - or did not do" Easily falls prey to anger or fear, or feels victimized if frustrated. Can explode with frustration and become "Perpetrator" or "Terrorist"; or feel powerless - "Doormat" or "Victim".

This level corresponds in psychosynthesis to the level of the subpersonalities. There is a tendency to "love" only the perceived "victim" in any situation, to identify with the victim, and to hate the perceived "oppressor". Unable to see that the oppressor is also suffering, but in a different way and expressing their suffering differently. Both the victim and the oppressor are giving out a cry for love and for their unmet needs to be met. There is a tendency for one operating at this level to hold others responsible for their happiness (and therefore unhappiness!), and at the same time push love or help away when it has been offered. This often leads to burn-out, or a win-lose situation, in which all are losers."

-ol' 2long

2Long, I think that is a very subjective definition of "real" love that is arbitrarily and unrealistically asserted. It seems fantasy based. He says:


I really love my son and I do get disappointed and angry with him sometimes. That is a love that I would classify as 'unconditional." To believe that one does not "really" love their child if they get angry or disappointed is to assert that NO PARENT in the world "really" loves their child because all parents feel anger and disappointment. The same with a spouse. That is unrealistic, unattainable and probably UNDESIRABLE.

It is an entirely arbitrary, unrealistic, fantastical standard manufactured by the author, who appears to have romanticized the concept of “love” out of all reality.[too many chick flicks on A&E?] I suspect he is probably a professional wussy boy who is invested in rationalizing any sort of mistreatment from his wife.


Well, I am a living contradiction of this theory and so are many folks - on this very forum - who have great marriages using MB principles. I can honestly say that I feel more fulfilled and loved than I ever have in my life. My husband adores me and I adore him. I am far from “empty and alone,” 2Long, but have a loving, intimate, joyful marriage with my husband. Our love for one another is very, very real, I assure you. But his love and my love is conditional.

2Long, has this "unconditional love" brought you happiness in your marriage?