Jumping off LilSis's thread ...

here is a sample of average wedding vows (I took this from a Catholic vows site simply because this discussion began on LilSis's thread)

[color:"blue"]Priest: "Do you take ___ as your lawful wife/husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and cherish until death do you part?"
Bride/Groom: "I do"
Bride/Groom: "I take this ring as a sign of my love and faithfulness in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit." [/color]

key words:

have
hold
better
worse
richer
poorer
sickness
health
love
cherish
love
faithfulness

[color:"red"] start the discussion with the vow to cherish[/color]

what happends if I have a day or two where I do NOT cherish H?
In fact, what if I think bad thoughts about him for a few hours?

Have I broken my vows?

Pep

now the kicker

is there a difference between

not KEEPING the vow

and

and not BREAKING the vow

????

Schoolbus, if you please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep

I think that each person probably has a very different idea of what "cherish" means...

For instance, to me, it means to protect...to be by my side as I encounter any crisis, health or otherwise...to value my feelings over and above those of others...to make me feel special by talking, listening and laughing at my jokes...(even when they are corny <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Whereas Mr. W sees cherishing as going to work everyday...paying the bills...being the provider...doing chores around the house...handling business of any kind...

ALL of those things are VERY important, so I'm certainly not saying that what he views as cherishing isn't, because I do see that all of what he defines as cherishing as INVALUABLE...they ARE acts of love...

The disconnect comes in when I try to cherish him in the way I want to be cherished and I expect him to do the same for me, and he in turn cherishes me in the way he wants to be cherished and expects me to cherish him that way in return...

I think that is why the EN questionnaire asks if your need for ________ is being met in the way that you like...

I believe that there is a HUGE difference between "not keeping" vows by not meeting needs and "breaking vows" by committing adultery...Not meeting needs is not something that most people are doing on purpose, there are just differences in perspective...There is no INTENT to not keep vows, but at some point along the boundary broken path to an affair, there becomes INTENT to break vows...The WS KNOWS this, if they didn't, there would be no need to do it secretly...

Mrs. W

[b] [color:"red"]EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

I agree that everyone has a different idea of what both LOVE and CHERISH means...

But if I act in a way that *I* think is love, and my husband does not feel loved ... because his needs are something else...

I did not accomplish what I promised to do....regardless of my pure motives, I failed to meet the objective.

People get sick, get cranky, have a bad day, are unable to temporarily meet needs...and the mature person can recognize when the lack of LOVE and CHERISHING is simply an temporary abberation.

Over time, when a spouse fails, consistently, to meet the needs....it is not illogical that one FEEL betrayed, that vows were broken.

Does that mean that vows were intentionally broken? No of course not, most of us drove our marriages into the ditch by plain old good intentions and buckets of ignorance.

Now there are those who intentionally withold love - usually from a self-righteous soap box - and that I would call intentional flat out deal breaking.

BR
I'm having a little difficulty following you here ...

Are you distinguishing between [i]feeling betrayed[/b] and an actual betrayal of vows?

Pep

"in sickness and in health"

if I make it crystal clear that I would never marry a smoker...
and after we take that "in sickness" vow as part of our wedding ...
he takes up smoking

I pull away and am not loving (because I refuse to kiss his stinky mouth)

which one is breaking which vow?

Pep

Yes.

If I intentionally withold affection, love, emotional needs, whatever, then yes I do think it is a betrayal.

If in my bumbling ignorance I fail to love my husband the way needs to be loved - then I can't say that I willingly, intentionally betrayed my vow - but the IMPACT is certainly the same as my spouse is now living without the things he was promised by me. My spouse still EXPERIENCES a lack of love!

A mature person in a perfect world could recognize the difference.

Certainly, in my marriage, I've gotten pretty good at meeting my husband's needs, but sometimes I just can't. My husband may NEED a little SF in the morning but I've got the darn stomach flu. LOL. For my husband to feel upset and betrayed because I rejected his advances because of a temporary inability is not even remotely reasonable.

But if I refuse to have sex with my husband, or refuse to meet his other needs for months on end, but always with a great excuse....I think it is perfectly logical that my husband decide that I am NOT keeping my promise.

If your spouse promised never to smoke and has now taken up smoking - I would call that a broken vow.

The consequence, your boundary to something harmful to you, is "I do not kiss stinky mouths!".

so we need to define "consistently" then?

Pep

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

con·sist·ent

Pronunciation[kuhn-sis-tuhnt]

–adjective
1. agreeing or accordant; compatible; not self-contradictory: His views and actions are consistent.
2. constantly adhering to the same principles, course, form, etc.: a consistent opponent.
3. holding firmly together; cohering.
4. Archaic. fixed; firm.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1565–75; < L consistent- (s. of consisténs, prp. of consistere). See consist, -ent]

—Related forms
con·sist·ent·ly, adverb


—Synonyms 1. congruous, consonant, harmonious, conformable.

.

As a guy, all I can say is this...
I'm getting out of here because I can NOT win on this, no matter what I say...

M

Wow, Pep and BR on the same thread...two people who's input I would REALLY appreciate on something along these lines...

I NEVER know exactly HOW to phrase this without sounding foggy...I need a new way to frame this in my mind...I apologize for the length...

Okay, prior to my affair, this was what was going on...

I was diagnosed with a very strange medical condition in the emergency room...Mr. W was at home with our DD and couldn't be with me (although I really would have appreciated him getting a babysitter-his parents were in state at the time)...I have no family here, except for Mr. W and our DD, so I was alone...After spending almost the entire day in the doctor's office and then the emergency room, going through an MRI and a spinal tap, they finally released me sometime after midnight with prescriptions in hand...I called Mr. W, who was sleeping, informed him of the bizarre and scary diagnosis, and asked if he would please go and have my prescriptions filled at the all night pharmacy, as I had been instructed to go home and lie down after the lumbar puncture...He flatly told me NO, that he was sleeping...My mom was REALLY ticked to find this out and called him and yes, he did end up going...But I will tell you that the result of that is that I did NOT feel cherished at all...I was VERY hurt...

Because of this condition, I continued to have multiple doctors appointments, and due to the medications, I began to have a lot of trouble with kidney stones...So much trouble, in fact, that I had gone by ambulance 3 times and had been admitted twice to the hospital...There were other health issues that also landed me in the ER...Every time I was ALONE-of course he did come and pick me up and take me home...The doctors and nurses kept asking me "Where is your family?"...That was not only hurtful, but also embarrassing...

Actually the lack of care regarding medical issues has been ongoing since the birth of our DD...Prior to 2 mths of age she had a fever and our doc has a policy that she always admits under those circumstances...Mr. W felt it was unnecessary and blamed me, said that I should have told the Pediatrician NO-HUH? She was our FIRST child, I'm not a medical professional...Why would I choose not to follow the doctor's orders? Later she had croup(sp?) and was actually put into ICU because her oxygen dropped so low...I called him that morning to tell him of this development, he said that we were expecting a delivery at one of our stores and that it would have to be MUCH LATER before he would be able to come to the hospital...I REALLY needed him then...There were so many doctors and nurses in the hospital room...I was so scared...

Okay, on top of these issues, Mr. W LOVES to be at his office...always has...

Mr. W's routine was to leave the house in the mornings at 7:45 a.m. and not return home until after midnight at the earliest, five nights a week...

Sunday nights he would leave around 5:00-6:00 p.m. and not return until after midnight...

Okay, granted NONE of these are reasons/justifications to have an affair...I get that...

Here is what I have trouble with...I DID FEEL SO UNLOVED AND UNCHERISHED...HE WAS NEVER HOME...I WAS ALWAYS ALONE...Crisis or not...There was a tremdous lack of care, IMO...

And he KNEW when OM first contacted me...I called him and told him about it (OM=HS/College BF)...And he KNEW how much OM and I were communicating by email and phone...He was THERE for some of it (weekends)...And I talked about it with him anytime that I had his attention, which was NOT very often...During this time even my phones calls to the office were a nuisance to him and he would cut me VERY short...

Here's what I KNOW about me...There is NO WAY that I would have sat back and said nothing if Mr. W were to have been talking to an ex girlfriend or ANY woman the amount that I was talking to OM...I would have raised cain from here to the end of the earth...And he did not, and I don't understand that really...

I struggle with feelings of "I would not have done this if he were only home...if he would only have been paying attention to me...any attention"...I so much wanted his love and attention...Further, had he have been home the opportunity would not even have been there, nor would I have wanted it to be...I KNOW this sounds like I am blaming him-it certainly feels that way to me...I don't want to do that...How can I see this another way? How can I see this in a healthy way?

I know that I had choices...I suppose I could have chosen to tell Mr. W that I wanted a divorce...Perhaps that would have gotten his attention...But I did NOT want a divorce, I just wanted his attention and all cries that I made towards that got me nowhere...I wanted him to be with me...Help me raise our dd...I wanted him to cherish me...

Cherish me...that is a phrase that I used often after Dday and one that I have noticed many other WWs say here...I do think it is of the upmost importance that both partners feel cherished by the other...

Last question...Am I suppose to accept that Mr. W will not ever be there for me during medical crises because that is just the way he is?...This has remained an issue for us in recovery...

Thanks...

Mrs. W

Mrs W ~ I have to ask...and maybe Mr W can speak for himself...

Does he fear losing someone he loves very much?

Its just rather ironic - I've been posting on MB today instead of writing my college paper (on procrastination! lol). One common reason given in all the research I am doing is that when people put things off, do not take immediate action, is fear.

I read your post and wondered to myself, not why doesn't Mr W care, I read your post and thought, what does Mr W fear?

Maybe I just happen to be biased by the paper I am writing...

I suspect that this is one of those cases where Mr W is not intentionally withholding CHERISHING, I suspect he is avoiding his fear....

Regardless, the IMPACT on you is the same.

Precisely my point.

Hmmm...BR...That is very interesting...Mr. W and I both are MAJOR procrastinators...I just read him your post and asked him about it-He was unable to come up with anything that he fears...Now, he was able to come up with MANY reasons that I procrastinate and what fears that I have that align with that...lol...so much easier to see that stuff in others...Although, I can't figure out his fears...I am one who lays all bare though...The ONLY time that I didn't was in the affair...

I'm not sure how to go about figuring out his fears when he is unable to...

Mrs. W

an issue as important as this cries out for POJA

By an chance, is Mr W known to be a "fainter" ???

Pep

No not a fainter Pep...He did actually watch one of my most recent lumbar punctures (summer 06)...so he has gotten better...But still I know that he does not want to be there...That it is bothersome to him that I am not as healthy as he is...

In his family being sick is viewed as being weak...His mom was a nurse...One of his sisters is a dentist and one of them is a nurse...Go Figure...He has lied to his parents before about my health issues on a few occasions because he was ashamed and didn't want me to appear weak to them...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

At any rate, I have been very ill many times myself, have had something like 11 surgeries in my lifetime, some very, very, scary.

My mother was always with me during these episodes before her death. My father made time to be with me after her death, and he was a 70+ hr a week workaholic who owns and runs several farms. My husband has been by my side for every single one of the rest.

What Mrs. Wondering describes here, would be for me, "my worst nightmare" type situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure how to POJA medical issues...When there is a crisis, there isn't much time for POJA-you do what you have to do...As far as long term illness goes, I'm unsure as to how to handle that...How do we enthusiastically agree about urgent or long term medical issues? Sometimes I feel that he thinks I enjoy being sick and he punishes me for it...How would we go about using POJA regarding illness?

With our DD, I just don't get it...She is luckily very healthy now and only had those issues as a baby...

Mrs. W