my H dislikes going with me as well ... because he gets all squirrley in his tummy ... but he goes anyway if I request it


in the animal world, sick is weak when it comes to becoming prey ... in the human world we all get sick and weak, when it's our turn ... unless we are suddenly removed from the gene pool by an accident or something

Pep

you POJA "what will we do if (one of you 3) gets sick and needs care ...."

you POJA what constitutes cherishing ... ahead of time

you want me to kick his [censored] for you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't want to make him sound like some kind of evil, uncaring person...I do understand that when I am sick that it is HIM that picks up the slack, and I know that that is VERY stressful...I do tell him that, but I also say to him, "I don't enjoy being sick...do you think I like this? It is stressful for me too!"

One of the times that I have felt the MOST loved by him was after the affair, I had a tummy tuck...His suggestion, as he knew that I had always wanted that...His plan was to Plan A me like crazy and he would also be able to monitor NC during the 6 week recouperation time...The affair had ended by the time that I had the surgery, but he still adhered to his plan and the care with which he treated me was UNBELIEVABLE...He cooked meals...tended to my wounds...He was my dream man...I felt very cherished...

I have told him that...I just don't understand why it remains an issue at times...most times...

Mrs. W

SHO NUFF...I say "BRING IT" sista! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

LOL...Quoting myself...Any ideas on how to handle this? How do I see it another way without blaming him?

Mrs. W

P.S. So sorry to threadjack this whole topic...I sincerely appreciate the feedback! Thank you!

Ashamed = fear.

I agree with Pep that there is a POJA here to be worked out, but I think there is a definitely a fear here.

If MrW equates sickness with weakness...and he is afraid of weakness...and he is afraid of others knowing about that weakness...

Ok you guys posted while i was typing dang it.

I think Peps comment about PREY is very insightful.

In my family home, any sign of emotional vulnerability turned us into prey....

Perhaps I am dense, I don't really get the correlation of prey...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just talked to Mr. W about these issues...He said that when illness fits into our lives that he will be there...other times I will just have to handle it on my own...because he can't be tired to go to work (even though we are self employed) or to take care of DD7 (a part of life is being tired while caring for children I believe)...Him telling me that REALLY hurts me...

And this is hurtful to him I'm sure, but I believe that he needs to know what needs were met in the affair-and I have told him this already...many times actually...and it hasn't changed anything, so I don't know...I FULLY understand that OM was NOT married to me and that his behavior was NOT steeped in reality...However, this need did get met...OM appeared to CARE about my health...One night while with him, I got a kidney stone and had to be rushed to the hospital...NOT by ambulance-he drove me...And he stayed with me ALL NIGHT LONG even though he had to work from 5am-7pm...He was late, because he took me home...And he *seemed* not to mind at all...And truly, that level of care felt GREAT...

I want that from Mr. W...It feels better from Mr. W...When he is there he is WONDERFUL...When I gave birth I'm certain there was no better labor coach...After my surgery, he was AMAZING...Those things fit his schedule...When he says that to me, it makes me feel very low on his priority list...I don't know what else to say or do...So here I am posting to see if there are other words or ways to lend validity to this in his eyes...

Mrs. W

Has Mr W ever been seriously ill and needed hospitalisation? It might be the same issue as with A's - until it happens to you, you just don't 'get it'.

No TT, he has always been the picture of health...Perhaps you are right about having to experience it to understand it...

I'm at a loss when it comes to communicating just how important this is to me-funny I've rarely been at a loss for words...I'm hoping that others may be able to put it into a different perspective for us...

Mrs. W

Um, Mrs. W . . . I think that a blind and deaf person could see why an otherwise good guy like Mr. W has a mental block against doing the same . . . even though he'll take care of you when it's on a "schedule" . . . do you really not see this?
Mulan

Mulan...

Mr. W's lack of care regarding my health predated the affair...So, yes I suppose I am blind and deaf on this one...Mr. W is my spouse, we are supposed to meet each others needs...It IS important for him to know what needs were met by the affair...That is pertinent information, wouldn't you agree?

Mrs. W

I think pretty much all of the EN meeting of the OP could be summed up with a general clause that nods assent at a very fundamental principle in human nature.

Being treated like I am the center of the known universe feels GREAT!

Drawing a line around ourselves as a couple that says the same thing...ditto.

It all hits the pavement when you have to start separating how much you NEED from how much you WANT.

In some areas I freely admit to being insatiable...there is no such thing as too much.

Finding the point between starvation and glut is very tricky and probably the solution in most cases.

Well, okay . . . I didn't see that . . .and yes, the info is important . . . but I guess it seemed to me like a guy who never liked mowing the lawn, and then he finds out the OM did a great job of mowing the lawn, and so then the guy *really* doesn't want to mow the lawn . . . it just sorta jumped out at me.

As far as what to do - I got nuthin'. If it predated the affair, it may be, as you say, something to do with FOO issues and was only exacerbated by the A.

Well, I do have POJA, and it does seem that it could be used to decide how the family will manage the next time anyone in it is sick. It may take a while, but I'll bet you can figure something out.
Mulan

[color:"red"] swiped from LilSis's thread:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [/color]





noodle ~ I am talking about her husband's perception. You may not like or agree with his perception. But it is what it is. No one here is justifying his reaction (the affair). My terminology is NOT "runaway" as you put it, I used that word very precisely. You might not agree - thats ok.

I was not refering specifically to your terminology but to blurred terminology in general. Just because you FEEL betrayed doesn't mean you have BEEN betrayed. Part of the road back from WSville is to learn to distinguish between your feelings and perceptions and the facts.

Further I doubt very much that he DOES feel betrayed. We give faaaaar too much credit to the idea that poor WS was just a suffering quivering mass of unmet needs prior to their affair.

Frankly I think it's bullsh*t 99% of the time.

Everyone goes through periods of dissatisfaction and everyone has to deal with the fact that people sometimes disappoint us and sometimes they disappoint us consistently because they just are not able to deliver what we need at the moment.

Boo frickedy hoo let's haul out the violins.

What we had here was a fairly satisfied man in an average marriage. Were there some areas that could be improved...sure...but you don't see HIM posting here seeking them out do you?

Was he on his knees begging for guidance and help?

Seeking counseling?

Nah. He didn't even KNOW he was unhappy until his marriage had to compete with his drug.

He FEELS betrayed. Feelings are not truths, they just ARE. He feels that LilSis did NOT keep her promise, and I am willing to bet that his hurt and pain at this broken promise fed his growing sense of entitlement. It is a powerful insight to WHY he was vulnerable to having an affair.

Again, going to have to disagree with you. I think it's a line of bull. I think it is willfull revisionist history and attempts to rationalize and justify continuing to do what he knows is wrong. He is grasping at straws.

She *did* promise to love and cherish and he married her with the expectation that he WOULD RECIEVE love and cherishing from the relationship.

Have we seen her fail to love and/or cherish him? I would say not. Generally it is the case with WSs that BOTH parties were more or less satsified while ignorant until one of them got a taste of the forbidden fruit and only THEN do they say..where have you been all my life beautifull?

He made a life long committment to LilSis with the understanding that LilSis would love and cherish him.

I would say that she has delivered in that promise.

She did not deliver the goods (from his POV).

He is comparing his marriage to his addiction..she can not deliver that reaction.

Does fog blow that out of porportion and make it worse than it was? Yes. But that does not mean that everything he says is false.

It means that his entire perception is skewed...and yes in a sense it does render it false.

What he thinks he needs and what he actually needs have a large gulf between them.

Some betrayals are worse than others. It is still a betrayal. (Thats why in the legal system, there are DEGREEs of crimes).

I disagree with assigning the term betrayal to anything that was not willfull and treacherous. You don't accidentally betray someone by ignorance or mishap.

I have a huge problem with the constant use of "Fog" to allow BSes to exonerate the BS's contributions to the downfall of the marriage and disrespect the WS. To dismiss LilSis' WH's point of view does not help her marriage.

I disagree. While he is an addict every word that comes out of his mouth is diarrhea, as were the thoughts that preceded them. LS is completely exonerated in any contribution to the affair. Her marraige was NOT an unhappy or neglectfull one. The man was seduced, failed to resist and got pulled d*ck first into an emotional entanglement.

For recovery to happen, the BS must accept responsibility for the damage caused by the BS.

I heartily disagree with this approach. It delivers an entitled WS not a remorsefull one.

Nothing she did or failed to do had jack to do with his temptation or seduction. that responsibility lands squarely on his own shoulders.

Her husband is telling her how he was hurt and she needs to "get" that - just as he will need to "get" the pain he caused her.

He didn't have an affair because he was hurt. He had an affair because he was weak.

It goes both ways.

I think that this is quite possibly one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard suggested. It absolutely does NOT go both ways. They can discuss changes and invest in new tools to create a more satisfying marriage. They can rearrange priorities to more closely model the ideal rather than ignorantly allow other things to interfere but where the rubber meets the road NO amount of satisfaction is going to keep him from lying and seeking MORE than she can provide when it serves itself on a platter except the ONE thing he lacked in his very average not remotely horrible or hurtfull or abusive marriage and that is personal integrity.

He is GOING to be tempted...hurt...let down...disappointed...attracted to other people...deal with consistently unmet needs or perceived needs...change directions at least one hundred more times...and you know what? He is just going to have to get over it.

Then he might feel resentfull and he can get over that too.

He is going to have to take RESPONSIBILITY for HIMSELF and stop waiting for someone ELSE to make it all better for him or to remove the temptation.

There will always be some oily tongued flatterer in the wings waiting for the opportunity to get whatever gain she thinks can be gotten from him.


These are recovery issues.

[b]Personally I don't argue with crazy people...it just agitates them.

I also don't fall headlong into their delusions or skewed perceptions.

I would look instead to WHAT he fears. He fears the loss of his dignity...he has confused it with his pride.

I think the bestest plan A thing to do is to allow him to struggle with his own rationalizations unhindered.

it's his fight and I say let him fight it...he will only resist attempts at help as manipulative in any case.

What she can do is speak the TRUTH and not support his drug addled wishfull thinking.

She can say "I am sorry that you felt disappointed or hurt when X" without agreeing with him that she has betrayed him. He WANTS her in that boat. He wants her to shoulder the responsibility for his feelings. After all that's how his affair works right? OW MAKES him feel so good. I bet herione is AWESOME. He HAS to do these things because his feelings are MAKING him.

There is no sense of autonomy in his drivel. It is all addict speak.

At the molecular level it is nothing more or less than a maturity crisis...before he was ever in the fog...before he was addicted a situation presented itself that required him to be mature, integral, and decisive.

Maybe it was a flash of leg and a smile laid thick with implication.

Maybe she looked too long into his eyes.

Maybe she told a joke with a lot of inuendo to see how he would react.

Maybe a thousand other possible stimulations that almost any person alive including me would find tempting or even arousing.

In that moment...that choice point...he CHOSE to step into the dark. Not because he was hurt or neglected but because he was TEMPTED. It looked like fun. It looked sexy. It felt hot and illicit. He thought he could just touch the darkness. He thought he could dabble and play with it. It swallowed him whole.

He has to come to terms with that choice and stop looking for someone to remove that burden.

By refusing to abuse, love bust, humiliate, appease, or excuse.


By demonstrating consistently ONLY what she brings to the table and then going dark she leaves him to do precisely this.

I think this point needs to be spotlighted

[color:"red"] I disagree with assigning the term betrayal to anything that was not willfull and treacherous. You don't accidentally betray someone by ignorance or mishap.
[/color]

Do you know that we (well, most of us anyway) consistently advise the BS to do something that nearly every WS feels is a betrayal ~~~> EXPOSURE feels like a betrayal to a WS

so what?
we should regard exposure as a betrayal because the WS says so???

Pep

As one who has been foggy and has come out the other side...

I'd like to add this...

Even in the fog, there IS some truth to what the WS is saying...

YES, in the fog it is VERY skewed...to astronomical proportions even...

But when the fog subsides...and the adrenaline of trying to get past the betrayal wanes...

The hurt remains from a marriage that was suffering from lack of care on both sides...

What was wrong in the marriage before the affair MUST be addressed and dealt with...

If not, both spouses remain unprotected...and unsatisfied...

Recovery is not for the faint of heart...but it is where intimacy can grow by leaps and bounds...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

This is something our husbands share. I know my H gets almost angry when I'm sick. Sometimes he actually did get angry. It makes him uncomfortable and fearful when I am sick. In fact last week I was sick for 3 days. He made the statement that it brings our household to a halt. When he's sick our house still runs like normal, but when I'm sick him and the kids don't know what to do. I can still feel his slight irritation when the kids and I are sick but it is nowhere near what it used to be.

I know as a child he was not allowed to be sick. His parents would not take him to the Dr. for anything. He was viewed as weak by his father. For most of our M we lived in a 100 year old house with no insulatation. My DD and I were always sick with sinus congestion b/c of it. FWH started to see me as weak, we have since moved into a new house and he commented that it was something that definately helped our reconciliation b/c I'm not sick all the time anymore. To this day I am still fearful of becoming ill, I often wonder what he would do if I became seriously ill or even terminal.

He is a different person now, but letting go of that fear is hard to do.

I remember a few years ago I had a kidney stone but it went undiagnosed for about 2 months. It was lodged and every once in awhile it would try to move and I would then have severe pain. So needless to say I was taken to the Dr. several times and then once to the ER until finally I saw a new Dr.and he diagnosed it immediately. The night that my FWH had to take me to the ER I actually hid in my DD's room. I was curled up in the fetal position crying from the pain. I was trying to keep it from him b/c I knew what his reaction would be. Finally I made it to the bathroom and that's where he found me curled up on the floor. He very hatefully asked me if I needed to go the ER. I was too afraid to answer but finally told him yes. This was 11pm and we lived 30 minutes from the hospital. On the way there he turned to me and said "there better be something really wrong with you!!!!!" I actually prayed that there would be. Ofcourse they misdiagnosed and told me I had a stomach bug so he was not happy!

When he told me he was leaving me all I could think was "YOUR LEAVING ME????????" Anyway, I just wanted to share with you that you are not alone, your H is not the only one. I would say it's a combo of emotions for him that make him act the way he does.

Um...no.

Feelings are facts, not truths.

If I do not do something I promised to do and instead do something else, have I not broken my promise?

The BS never made a promise to protect or hide the affair of the WS.

Goody, may I jump in?

Facts to whom? To me, facts can be proved, they are verifiable. If WH says he "loves" RT, is that a fact? It most certainly is a feeling, and it is a fact to him...but is it provable, verifiable? Because I don't, and I do not believe that God would accept that statement as "fact."

Ooohhh..I love these interesting philosophical debates!