Neu,

Wiftty, and AGG gave you a very good example of the "games" we are all talking about. Permit me to quote from you first post on this thread </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I attempted to explain in an nice, non provoking, non projecting way as to where my financies have gone since we've been married.
I mentioned the events of last August/Sept. and that she asked to "BORROW" money, Interupted "she owes me money". I used the word OWE, she got upset. She told me she forgot about the money she "borrowed". She said she doesn't know how it was that much, but that "I'm gonna pay it back" with an attitude. I told her at this point I didn't want the money, that I was just telling her where my monies where going and the effects. She got very silent. I had to go to an scheduled event so I told her "I Love you", she responded the same.
That night when I came home and got in the bed as she was almost asleep. I told her Goodnight. Now we usually kiss after we say that, well we didn't.
Next morning, Good morning, after that is usually a kiss, not this morning. Come home after work usually it "hey/hi" and than a kiss, no kiss. that night I had a scheduled event so I went. When I returned home it was late, but she was still kinda up. I said goodnight, she responded the same, again no kiss no hug no laying next to/on me like she has done before this situation started.
Now, she gets up this morning I again say good morning she responds the same and still no kiss, hug anything.
She gets ready for work and as she leaves she tells me I have to talk to you, as she leaves.
She calls me @ home from her office while I get ready for work. She tells me that she is upset and very bothered that I mentioned the events last August/Sept. and She hates that I said the word OWE. I told her again, I was just trying to explain to her where my finances go. Now, she say I never thought I would feel this way, but I will never ask you for anything again. W continues to say I will pay all rent, my kids etc.
Now, I'm not allowed to be a really parent, but yet I feel she wants to use me for financial help as she sees fit. HELP MB!!!!!!!!!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I look at her behavior and see a petulant teenager. Playing games with you. "I didn't remember how big the amount borrowed was" "I won't kiss you if you don't ..." "I won't acknowledge you because..."

All childish games. Fact of the matter is Neu you can leave right now. Your name isn't on the note to pay off the landlord. You are not the parent to the children. You don't make enough money.

I can see no reason for you to stay, unless of course you really do love this woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But, if you do, then she needs to know how "I feel..." as Wiftty has said. She needs to be honest with you and SUPPORT YOU. How? Well, we talked about the kids earlier. But, she can SUPPORT you by sticking to the budget. By paying her bills on time. By talking with you and loving you instead of withdrawing from you.

If she really cannot support you in these ways. Let her have her apartment, her kids, and her bills.

I am very pro marriage, but I am not pro stupidity.
I think she either has to get smart and realize there is a problem in this marriage and it isn't your paycheck, it isn't disciplining, it isn't the kids. It is her lack of respect for you and lack of acknowledgment that you have VOLUNTEERED for a very hard position with her: raising her kids and helping support HER family, in HER apartment, with HER debts.

So listen carefully to what Wiftty said to you about taking about YOUR feelings when talking with her.

God Bless,

JL

baba2 & AGoodGuy,
I don't want to really say anything because as you put it baba2 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will start blaming you for her problems next. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that you mentioned it. She said "I was doing better financially before I got married" to me.
Now I know that's not true. She was spending more money than she could afford, not paying her bills.
GoodGuy,
I work very hard on trying not to blame her. No matter how good I say what I need to say she will still take it as an attack like I'm blaming her, that's how she'll take it.
I'm sitting here in tears <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Witty,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW, neu, how old are you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">31

I told my W she has changed and isn't the woman I married. Her reply was "people change". I told her I feel I was decieved she said "I feel bad that you feel you were decieved"

A few weeks ago I recommended we go to a marriage counselor. She said lets see how next month goes. Well this is next month.
When she called me from her office and told me how she felt. She went on further to say "I know you aren't happy, I'm not happy. Maybe we should see a counselor". I agreed. I called counselor who came recommended and someone neither of us know. Do you feel her (W) gesture of going to counseling is a sign of her wanting this marriage to work. I think so but I would like to hear you thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neuschwanstein:
<strong>Do you feel her (W) gesture of going to counseling is a sign of her wanting this marriage to work. I think so but I would like to hear you thoughts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might be a good sign, but it isn't going to help unless both of you want it to. If one of you isn't willing to make the changes required to make it work, then it won't.

Back to the kids, though. If I were the step parent and was told I had no hand in discipline, I wouldn't want to support them financially either. I'd take the position that I'm their parent, or I'm not. Take it or leave it.

I'm not the step parent in my blended family, but I encourage my H to be involved in the discipline. This might sound selfish, but it's nice to not always have to be the bad guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Amanda

neu ----

I feel like I'm being avoided here - so I'm probably wasting my time.

I agree with what the guys are saying - if your version of this story is in fact 100% correct. However, I'm seeing this from a bit different perspective.

You got into the marriage with an agenda - the same as she did. You feel your agenda has been upset by hers, and neither of you are getting what you want out of the relationship.

She has children, and is therefore a package deal. You can't delete the children now that you are married. No change there.

You indicated that she wants you to be a fully functional parent on one hand, and on the other wants you to abstain from discipline and still provide for them. Being a full time mother - I can see an issue developing here right away. Parenting skills, ideas, and thoughts are different between bio parents, and seldom do they ever find a way to agree whole heartedly on all issues. Therefore, it is my guess that you are probably out there a bit as far as parenting issues. Not necessarily wrong, but very different.

Money and parenting issues are very tender subjects with most single moms. We are either extremely confident or under skilled in both areas and often struggling too much to admit either.

My recommendation is the counselor --- FIRST, set a budget and both of you work to define your needs for this budget and what it will pay and provide. SECOND, set basic boundaries for yourself as per the children and their space and time. Try to include as many of their activities in your schedule as you can - even with some stretch on your part - and show your W you are interested in being a parent. Don't discipline until you have gained their respect and affection in other areas. Only guard your personal boundaries, and encourage them to participate in your life. Ask them to go along with you when you run to the store or whatever, and participate in their lives.

"Please show more respect for my belongings and don't kick my briefcase away from the door like that." Ask for their cooperation, but also have a mild consequence if they do not cooperate, but one that is not a 'punishment'. For instance, remove the breifcase back to your vehicle, note the child's behavior and next time you are going to town, "Sorry, you don't respect my things, you can't go with me." But the next time you go - take him or her and make an opportunity to discuss the disrespectful behavior.

Just a suggestion... Hope it is helpful.

Jan

Jan,
I sorry, you're not being avoided or wasting your time. I appreciate your post.
In response to your last post about the kids. I have tried all in the realm to which you have suggested, with very little to no results.
I'm not trying to seem as though I am blaming the kids for our problems. the main problems are between me and my W. Yes, we both had agendas, and in the begin of our marriage we appeared to be on the same page. However, she changeed into someone I don't even know. I addressed this issue before and her response was "people change". This leads me to believe this may be the "real" her. The person I dated and married in the begining was a charecter she played.
Sitting down and setting up a budget again, I would do. However, I'm don't know/doubt she would follow through with it.
Thanks for your post Jan, keep sending them. They all are helping me.
neu <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

neuschwanstein,

You will reap what you sow.

Hear me now; you are responsible for those kids. Monetarily, socially, morally, religiously and any other ly you can think of. You are married to this woman and what&#8217;s hers is your and more importantly what&#8217;s yours is hers. From what I can ascertain you guys need to throw all of the money that you bring in...Her paycheck...Your paycheck...and the child support check into one account. Pay off those bills that you owe. Figure out what you can live on...and in the beginning it should be the very bare necessities, and the rest of what is not being used to support this family should go to outstanding debt. Right now by taking loans and owing for back rent is crazy. PAY OFF these debts and get your financial worries out of the way. All I can see in your post are "he said she said". Marriage is meant as union, two becoming one. And as it stands you two are still very much two. I pray that you receive this message is as it is meant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PS You need to be a man and apologize to your W about the "Owe" statement. No matter how non-disrespectful it was meant to be it was a disrespectful comment. It was taken as such and needs to be regarded as such.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neuschwanstein:
<strong>Witty,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW, neu, how old are you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">31</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, and how old is your W?

In case you don't understand what everyone is saying about apologizing try this EXACTLY...

"Honey, I am really sorry I used the word OWE." And leave it at that, do not qualify further or you will dig yourself deeper into a hole.

LiontoLamb,
I came into the marriage with the idea of what's mine is hers & hers mine. However, as time went by it became clear to me that she didn't feel the same way. I have continued that idea to a degree, but it has gotten to the point were I feel taken advantage of. That is not a healthly feeling in a marriage. Give and take, that's a part of marriage, I understand and agree with that. However, how should a person feel if they are always giving of anything, not just money, yet very rarely recieving. I have suggested that we put our monies into our joint acct. I have gotten no follow through from her. It takes all of 2 minutes to transfer monies from the personal acct to the joint acct. via web banking which we have.

Liontolamb, MyBestFriend'sWife, & Witty,
When I got home last night I went to my wife and apologized for saying the word "OWE", nothing more, nothing less. She looked at me said Hmmm....and waved her hand. The hand waving I took as she was "blowing me off, but I took your advise, stepped up as a man and apologized.
In speaking with my W today she is still very upset. She said she feels like what ever I do for her now that she will owe me something. I tried to explain to her that's not the case. I'm praying this feeling will pass with time. She went on further to say that she is upset not just with the word owe, but that I gave the amount. Again, I reminded her I was merely, trying to explain to her were my financies were going, not to through it in her face, or make her mad, etc. I apologized again and further said I'm sorry it was not said in a way that she wouldn't get upset, or any bad feelings. I feel like no matter what I say or how good, sweat, non-disrepecting why I say anything, I always have to attempt to justify why I said it.
One thing I did noticed after speaking with my W on the "PHONE" again was never once did she deny that she borrowed monies, has a debt(owes), the money that I spoke on. It appears to me and I could be wrong MB so correct me if I am! It appears to me that she is mad that I brought that to the surface more than the fact of having a debit(owe) to me. Again, I don't want the money, I really don't. I wish I never said anything on that wise, but at the same time by not saying anything I would be surpressing my feeling which somewhere along the way would built up resentment. It seems that issue from my part is/was a double edge sword.
neu

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: neuschwanstein ]</small>

To answer your quesion "Is step parent finanically resopnsible..." YES!!!

Duke,
Thanks for posting. I have a question for you. You feel a step parent should be finanically responsible, but what if you're only allowed to be a parent when it is convenient to your spouse or the kids?

I look at it this way. When you married, you and her became the parents of the children. The responsible parent takes care of the needs of his/her children.

You are now a parent, you treat the child/children as YOURS. You do for them as you would for your own children. If they need money, give it to them. If they need shoes, buy them.

By the way, stop you using the word "step". You are now a parent. You don't have "step" children, you have children. You have a family, take care of it.

I have no experience of this, but Duke, if the father of the children is still in the picture, and paying substantial child support, doesn't that change things?

ETA, it sounds like your wife has a problem with money (and you guys haven't sorted out joint finances yet). It will take a bit of time to sort that out, but it ounds like a money problem rather than a children problem. Another way to look at it is that the kids actually bring in nearly a third of your household income in child support, so maybe it's how the money is spent that is the problem, not the ammount of money?

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: tgirl ]</small>

Tgirl,
IMHO, I don't think it changes anything. If the children live whith him and his wife, he takes care of them. ALL of the money that comes into the house goes toward taking care of the family.

I think your initial question is irrelevant. Because your step-kids are not your main problem. Your wife is the most childish person living in that house. And for sure you have to support her. So you need to help her grow up.

Tell your wife to cut the crap. If she acts upset again, or talks in an annoyed tone of voice, or with her face screwed up into a frown, tell her that you are happy to talk to her when she can be pleasant. Then walk away. If she follows you, close a door behind you and lock it. If there aren't such rooms in the house, get in your car and drive away. Do NOT tolerate poor behavior when dealing with this kind of person. It only empowers them to be even more controlling and unreasonable.

Do NOT suck up to her. Do NOT kiss her [censored]. Do NOT take responsibility for her being in a bad mood. You said something that hurt her feelings. OK, that was a mistake. But we all make mistakes. You apologized. Well done. That is all you owed her. Now it is up to HER to get over it.

Set some boundaries big guy. Figure out how money you are willing and able to throw into the pot each month. Throw that in. Then you should be guilt free when she runs out of money. There only is what there is. Tell her that if you had more you would share more. But right now you are sharing everything you have and their isn't any more. It isn't YOUR fault she can't live within the family's budget. So do NOT give her more money if she runs out.

It has taken me literally years to suffer through a similar situation. Wife just couldn't seem to survive on what we have available. I am a conflict avoider. I hated disappointing her. I hated when she got angry and snippy and withdrawn. So I gave in and gave her more money when she complained. Just to get rid of the tension inside the house.

Finally I realized that I was not helping her by bailing her out. I was only indulging her addiction. Like giving more booze to an alcoholic when they run out. May postpone the DTs, and shut up their complaining, but it doesn't help solve the long run problem.

So you need to do the same thing. Make sure that the rent, the car payment, the electric bill and other necessities get paid by electronic transfer from the family bank account. Both her child support check and her paycheck should be cashed via direct deposit into the family account, along with your paycheck. That way you know the truly essential bills always get paid. And you can divide up whatever is left over between the 2 of you.

If she runs out of funds before the end of the month, tell her you hope she does a better job of budgeting next month. And that you are happy to discuss ways to economize. And you'll even buy some food and pack her a lunch if she needs you to. But no extra cash.

Tough love, baby! Tough love! Be strong. At first it will be unpleasant. But it is the only way to get where you want to end up. Unless you want to end up bankrupt and divorced. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: holdingontoit ]</small>

Your house bills and rent and utilities should be split 50/50 and paid out of a joint account, your wife needs financial counseling because she's making more than enough $$$ with her support to run a household,someone like your wife who is foolish with $$ can ruin you for years to come. In your shoes i'd lay down the law about finances and make her stick to a responsible budget and if she didnt want to do that I would be very selective about how and when I gave her any money, she sounds like a spoiled brat who cant be trusted with $$$$. As for the kids, since you dont get any say, let her and their father pay their way, and any extra you decide to add should be at your discression.
Your marriage has 3 strikes against it as I see it,money, step kids, and a spoiled brat woman who's irresponsible and selfish. If i was you I would be very frank with her about the issues and attempt to get her to work it all out, my bet is she will be unwilling to compromise, it sounds like she lives day to day and by the seat of her pants without reguard for anyone and anything besides her self and her kids, a big red flag to me is she's living large and not paying her rent and not even bothering to pay the back rent thats also due, when you have kids you dont play games with your shelter and your food budget.
If she's unwilling to change your in for a rough future that I dont think you can deal with by what you say, it may be time to cut your losses and bail, best of luck to you.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said she feels like what ever I do for her now that she will owe me something. I tried to explain to her that's not the case. I'm praying this feeling will pass with time. She went on further to say that she is upset not just with the word owe, but that I gave the amount. Again, I reminded her I was merely, trying to explain to her were my financies were going, not to through it in her face, or make her mad, etc. I apologized again and further said I'm sorry it was not said in a way that she wouldn't get upset, or any bad feelings. I feel like no matter what I say or how good, sweat, non-disrepecting why I say anything, I always have to attempt to justify why I said it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you were supposed to not say anything after the apology, but LISTEN! not justify, LISTEN. .

ok, you are starting to get into the borderline here, which is a difficult place to be in, where right and wrong change constantly, where nothing is permanent. . . and you are responsible for everything she feels and wants. . .

my opinion, its time to seriously think about your options. . . and i mean not just your words, but whether you want to continue in this marriage or not. . . you are young, you can take this as a big learning experience, and you won't have many assets to split, etc. . .

Now i say this particularly because you feel decieved about before and after the marriage. . . so time to put on the tough decision making and decide how long you think you will try before the situation will change. . .
if ever, my experience is, they change but just slightly. . .

wiftty

Neu,

I have to agree with wiftty on this one. You have to make a decision and go with it. If you decide to end it make sure you take plenty of time to think it over. I am sure you have heard stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. This is absolutley not true, I wish I had know this earlier. Here is a quote from the Bible. "Proverbs 18:21 The tongue has the power of life and death, ,
and those who love it will eat its fruit."
The reason I am qouting it is because whatever your decision is could be final. So many times people threaten divorce. It is sad because think of the wall you are putting up between you and your spouse, especially if you reverse your decision. How many times have you thought to yourself "I wish I hadn't said that". The truth is words do hurt and that is why we need to be mindful of the things we say. I am still guilty of this and everyday I try harder not to do it. Just some food for thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />