you took the words right out of my mouth. I guess I knew our M was dysfunctional but I thought "everyone has problems in a M" I didn't think our issues were necessarily 'deal breakers' an now I see we both had dysfunctional ways of relating. we were constantly in each others "stuff"

stepping back and looking at it from a distance I see just how disconnected we were. I take my own responsibility for the enabling and I am working hard on that. problem is, she doesn't want me to change. she is scared, and she wants to hold onto what she knows is secure....me. the fact that I am changing and placing boundaries, and standing behind them is soooo scary for her. she sees our old life evaporating. she doesn't have me to coddle her anymore, she now has a choice....sink or swim. no more lifevest(me)
the thing is, I know how strong she is...I know she will swim. I just don't know if she will head back to my shore. thats up to her.

islh, how are you doing???

Thanks for checking in on me, fighting. I'm doing just ok.

Kind of hard to explain. I think I've been holding so much stuff inside of me for so long now that it's really taking it's toll. Last night got slammed with a huge trigger, FWH didn't really "get it"; he finally left and I spent the rest of the night crying. I have not done that in so long, been holding it all in, and I just couldn't stop. Cried while I was making dinner, doing the dishes, taking a bath; cried myself to sleep. Then I woke up in the middle of the middle of the night and physically got sick. The stress and emotional turmoil is getting to me physically now.

I'm barely eating right now, I know I have lost weight. I can hardly take care of my everyday responsibilities. All I can do is exercise, I guess that's one good thing.

I am so hurt and so angry. I've finally gotten to know myself well enough to know that when I hold my hurt in and don't let it out, it turns to anger. I really feel like I hate him right now. I can't even remember what I loved about him in the first place. He is doing nothing to even attempt to meet any of my needs, and I have no desire to meet any of his. We're just living and I feel trapped.

That's it. Sorry this is such a downer. I've been in this "place" before, but not this bad. Hopefully it ends soon, I really hate my life right now. There is nothing good about it. I have nothing to look forward to, no vacations, nothing good or fun. Just day after day of that tingly feeling in my nose that means I'm going to start cying any minute.

How are you doing?

Maybe you should reconsider your timeline. "Just living" might be undoing a lot of your hard earned, good Plan A stuff.

If you're drained/done, then it's time for Plan B.

Ya know?

Mys

my first 2 months I did the same...the natural endorphins will make you feel better...thats what you need, a bit of feeling better. If it is any consolation, the intensity of emotions is normal, I felt the same, and I'm sure many others did. it gets a little better, I still cry from time to time, but usually only need a few minutes 5-10 and then I get back to life.



it is tough to stay strong in the face of someone who is seemimgly clueless to your turmoil...I have felt the same emotions. this is where you get to the point that you HAVE to remove yourself from him to preserve the love YOU feel. plan B is about YOU and protecting that love so WHEN he is ready(and he will be), you have something left to work with.


I agree myshae...it does no good to unload all that anger and emotion to him when he will not help you heal...thats the whole point of your plan B right, that he wont participate in recovery? you only plan A until you can't anymore...no one can make that decision but you. are you there??

I am waiting until March 2nd, that's the deadline I gave him to let me know if he is ready or not to start trying to build a marriage where we BOTH can be happy, and a few other things. That's next Friday. I have a thing about sticking to my word, so that's what I'm waiting for.

I'm pretty miserable right now, just trying to keep busy until then; some days are better than others, yesterday and today are pretty bad. I'm not sleeping well at night either, and I know that is compounding all of this.

Just keeping my eyes on March 2nd. That's all I can do right now.

And yes, I agree with both of you, that if things do not change and he cannot commit that day, he's going to have to move out immediately. I just can't be around him anymore. It's way too painful, and I'm losing respect and becoming indifferent. I know that is really bad, and that's what I'm trying to avoid.

Nine days to go.

Ish,

My heart is breaking for you. Earlier, I had set a deadline, too. As I recall it was around Jan. 9. FWH decided to check out early, Nov. 4.

Honestly, Ish, it was the best thing that happened to us in this. I tend to agree with mysh. Perhaps you should get this show on the road. I would guess that his attitude isn't going to change in nine days.

Ish, do you have a plan? You have to follow through. Let him go and figure out life without you and the kids.

Hey, I give him a few days at best and he'll be back a new man.

Anyway, you know we're here for you.

rlt--

My goodness, but you're stubborn!! {{{{{islh_islh}}}}}

I know it's only 9 days, but it's 9 days of back peddling all that great Plan A stuff that you did, my dear. Gritting your teeth for the sake of being stubborn about your word is being pound foolish and penny wise. The best thing to do is be honest, stop being miserable around him (and probably not leaving him with a very positive marriage impression) and go if that's the best you can do.

If you really can't bring yourself to break your word -- can you muster up a little energy to at least blow him out of the water with Plan A for 9 more teensy, weensy days?

What do you want to leave him with? Knuckle biting, teeth grinding, islh_islh, or 'this is a woman I can live with for the rest of my days' islh_islh?

Mys

Hmmm, interesting that it looks like I'm being stubborn. I hadn't thought of it that way, more like just sticking to my word.

You're right, I need to decide if I can either muster up enough energy to get back into Plan A, or just tell him that I need a decision now. I will think about that and make a decision, hopefully by tomorrow.

Here's the really awful part: see, right now I don't even care if he moves out, so why would I even bother going back to Plan A? Hopefully that feeling will change and I will start to care. Right now, I just don't.

ish,

see this is why Harly doesn't recommend women do plan a as long as men, because you're getting to the dangerous part where you're beginning to lose love for your husband.

Perhaps you should just tell him what you're feeling right now.

Good point, rlt, thanks for pointing that out...

I just don't even know if I have the energy to start a big conversation with him about it.

I wish for f***ing ONCE he would come to me, acknowledge that things are really bad, and do something about it.

**sigh**

I hope I didn't insult you with the stubborn comment -- it was written with a big grin on my face and probably should have been followed by a *playful nudge* rather than just a hug.

Stubborn is quite good a lot of the time. It's what gets you through. You're strong.


But, this is still true. Making yourself wait just so you can pass some milestone which has no other meaning than it's 'what you said <however long ago when you hoped things would be different>' isn't really doing much except digging the hole that much deeper.

Like I've always said: When you see your spouse digging himself into a hole -- there's no reason for you to stand there and hand him a shovel. .... or drive the backhoe for him... or .. well, you get the picture.

Who needs that?

Mys

ish, i'm going to do some digging in my old posts and copy them to you--ones from larry and Bob PUre. They really set me straight on how much we take and what our limits should be with an uncooperative WS.

Do your level best to not make it a big conversation. Just the facts, ma'am. Tell him what you've decided. Ask him if he's made a decision. Anything other than "Yes, I'm going to go <action> later today/first thing tomorrow." is an indication that you're doing what ever you said you're doing.

Then do it.

There isn't much else to say. You've all ready hashed, rehashed, gone over, gone over it again, reviewed it, talked about it, talked about it again, folded it, spindled it, and mutilat..er..anyway, you get my point. The ground's been covered all ready.


Make it a point to keep the conversation to 5 minutes or less unless you're talking about action steps to fix this thing. The time for complaints, insecurities ("I don't know if I can.."), whining, recriminations, explanations, or negotiations has passed.

Mys

Thanks, mys ~

My mind is so jumbled and screwed up these days that I am not thinking clearly. Thanks for pointing out that the time for foot dragging, humming and hawing is past. I just need a freaking answer.

Off to the "happiestplaceonearth" (gag, puke) tomorrow with the whole family. I'll probably try to wait until after that so we don't ruin the whole day. Unless somehow it comes up tonight and the timing is right.

I'll be looking for those posts, rlt, thanks.

ISH, I copied and pasted some posts here from Larry back when FWH was doing pretty much what yours is doing now.

I don't know why, but Larry's posts really took hold of me then, gave me a lot of courage.

Read through them, see if they help.

rlt--

What do we want our wayward spouses to do? Do we want them to forever deal with our moral high ground through daily self flagellation?

Or do we want a normal life, whatever that is? Do we want a daily life where we can enjoy the present and look forward to the future, or do we want our daily lives to be consumed by looking at the past?

Do we expect constant retribution, forever? Sheesh, how much punishment is enough?

On the other hand, RLT, your husband CLEARLY isn't doing enough retribution and changes to how he does business. I am a BS and I tell you flat, that if your statements are complete, you have every reason to kick him where he lives.

He sounds entitled. That is a very, very bad sign. What is it about "Give me what I need or I will find it elsewhere," that he doesn't understand?

He doesn't enjoy that you have the moral high ground on him but he is too male lazy to do anything about it except mouth out stuff that is garbage. Go get him.

Male entitlement is not fun to watch. And neither is the female variety. But in this case, I think it is the male who needs a wake up call - called "We are gonna divorce so you can go find another sucker who will feed you, clean up after you and leave you alone in your fantasy world to watch sports and fart." "I am not your maid. I am your wife and I have needs. Figure it out."

Men are dense - and emotionally lazy. You gotta hit them with a 2X4 to get their attention and sometimes even that doesn't work.

I have often said; God and mom made him, you are not likely to change him - only he can do that.

Larry

Edited by Larry178 (10/27/06 09:40 AM)

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Larry178
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Reged: 09/04/05
Posts: 728
Loc: The Great State of West Texas Re: Why do we BS's do this?? [Re: Larry178]
#3124516 - 10/27/06 09:42 AM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply




Oh, and quit blaming yourself for your husband's bad choices in the way he conducts his daily life. You don't control what he does or is - that is an illusion built up by Cosmo and high school girl talk.

Larry
The road to you know where is paved with good intentions. He can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk, for whatever reason only he knows. And you can tell him that I said so.

He has entrenched habits that he refuses to break. Sorry, he is as he is and so far has found no incentive to change.

Larry
He hasn't let go of the ghost because 1) he doesn't know how and 2) he doesn't understand the consequences of NOT letting go.

He doesn't know how because he hasn't had the incentive to discover.

He doesn't understand the consequences because those consequences 1) didn't happen to him and 2) because it wasn't explained to him in guy language so he understood it.

Yea, he is still more or less in the fog.

Larry

I my opinion, he may have faced the simple fact he had an affair and that it had bad consequences, but he hasn't faced the issues he had that drove him to do it. He is too easy on himself. He doesn't understand that the issues he had are in all of us and they are the weaknesses that need to be dealt with in life.

What you are looking for is a remorseful husband who will change as a result of the devastating event in your life (lives). Only he isn't changing. In my opinion, he is using the affair as an excuse to NOT change. He sees the need, but doesn't have the will.

He wasn't happy with his lot in life, so he went looking for an affair to solve his problems. That got him in more trouble than it was worth. He still isn't happy with his lot in life. According to what you have said, he lacks motivation and desire.

That may or may not change. I disagree with your IC. You cannot change him. Only he can change himself and you may or may not be able to provide him with the incentive to do so. By whatever means, you can provide positive and negative incentive. But whatever you do, if it is to be, it is up to him. Whatever means you use, there must be light at the end of the tunnel. He has to be given choices and those choices have to make sense to him.
I get the same picture there as I did here. Let me give you and example of male thinking.

My son is in trouble at school. It is called task avoidance. He simply doesn't want to do his work. When he doesn't, he gets licks. He is up to one a day, at least.

Yet he persists in the same habit pattern. So we are upping the ante, changing the rules on him. He is looking at having his bedroom locked and having to sleep in the upper bunk in the same room as his younger brother.

And I have advised him that we can get even more creative until he finally figures it out.

The bottom line is that a male will get stubborn as a mule for a very long time, until he finally caves, once having invented a reason to do so that salvages his pride.

Carrot & Stick. IMHO, you have to keep the pressure on until he caves - or not, as the case may be. At some point, you have to ask yourself if you can live with him as he is - or not. He either changes or he doesn't. You control you, not him.

Larry

then you definately need it...those feelings are strong, and your LB is already dangerously low. you will get some relief when is is away from you for a bit.



now you are speaking my language...but ask yourself(as I have asked myself)...has he ever done that before? is it a realistic expectation? does he have the skills to ...identify the problem...voice his issues...take action to fix it? you know the answer as well as I do. and I am speaking only from my own experiences, but our WS's seem to have similar wiring. and please tell me if I am off base with this.

I have been looking for the same words, and actions..but I am coming to realize that it is just not how my WS works...and it is WS's responsibility to get there whatever way she can...I cannot do it for her...I cannot show her the road...she has to find it herself. now, do I have any confidence that she can? yes. do I have any confidence that she will? hmmmm....I know her will is strong, so I guess she will have to WANT it bad enough.

she is extremely entitled...and extremely confident that I am going to be there forever, waiting with open arms to take her back. even now in plan B for over a month she still doesn't understand why I don't want to be around her. no clue, no empathy, no understanding, no validation. but she never has done this before, why am I surprised that she cannot do it now. I am still waiting for her to act in a way that she never has before....trying to get blood from a stone. it is scary to realize, I may NEVER get what I want from this person. and that is my desicion to say 'I don't want to live like this anymore.'

Hey guys, wanted to update you all ~

I'm not "hiding" anymore under the other screenname, MFsFWH found it and knew anyways, and threw a mini hissy fit, calling me a hypocrite (along with everyone here trying to help me) because I wasn't being Radically Honest.

I tried my best explaining WHY I had to go underground to get help with my Plan B (i.e., because I'm trying to save my marriage, and everyone here just wants to help me). He didn't hear any of it because he was too set in believing what he wanted to believe. He also grossly misquoted a few things, so I pulled out this thread and read it back to him and showed him that what he thought he read WOULD be wrong, but what was actually written was written in HIS FAVOR!!!

Anyways, that March 2nd deadline came early, and he moved out last night. He said that he "doesn't see himself going to counceling anytime soon", and now because of this thread and my "secret" screenname, he hates MB even more.

So, that's it ~ I'm actually feeling pretty fine. Maybe the shock hasn't hit me yet, but I'm ok. Friday and Saturday we're two really good days for us, we had a lot of fun, so my Plan A'ing ended on a great note. Yesterday he started stonewalling me again, and when I called him on it, that's when everything blew up and he finally decided that he just can't "do this".

Not much else to say ~ thanks everyone for your help, I know I'm doing the right thing. Things have not been good for months now and I couldn't "pretend" that I was fine when I really wasn't, anymore. I AM NOT FINE, I am far from "over this". We've wasted a whole year sweeping it under the rug, and I/we could have been so much further along in this recovery process. But I let him lead the recovery and that was a huge mistake. HUGE. I own that.

Thanks again, everyone.

~MF

{{{Married Forever}}}

I know this isn't the way you wanted things to turn out and I'm very sorry that it happened this way.


I'm less concerned that he 'hates MB' as there are other programs out there that probably would work. It's more that he doesn't see himself working on this relationship if you're going to continue to insist on being able to be happy in the relationship, as well. No program is going to help unless this gets to be a marriage in which you get to be happy and have your needs met, too.


Yes. Go as dark as you can. Stop meeting any needs from him and stop concerning yourself with what he's doing and how he's recovering or what he's thinking or anything else. From now on, if he wants back into the relationship, he has to demonstrate to you that he's willing to make it a partnership in which you both get to be happy -- whether that's via MB strategies or some other.


It's not all your fault. Don't waste too much time beating yourself up over this. Just concentrate on MF right now and figuring out what you want in YOUR life.

Take care and please let us know how you're doing unless you feel that your H will be reading here and getting his 'fix' from that.


Mys

Thanks Mys ~

Yeah, it's not what I wanted at all, but I also don't want to keep on in this M where I don't feel safe to really share what's going on inside of me. I haven't felt safe to do that in months, and when I tried explaining it to him, he didn't understand.



Unfortunately we only have one car that can fit all our kids, so I'm going to have to have some contact. That's ok, I can handle that.

I'm not concerned with what he's doing at all, I really don't care. I just need to take care of myself, do some self-soothing kind of stuff and sit and lick my wounds for a while.



Oh, I'm sure he'll be reading this. It doesn't bother me, and I'm not concerned about him getting any kind of "fix" from it. I have NO OTHER SUPPORT SYSTEM, this is it, and since I wasn't able and still am not able to get any support from him in how much pain I'm still in, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to give that up. This is my only release. I probably won't be posting as much, but I won't be totally gone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />