Eav,
It is true that the "high" made it difficult if not impossible for me to want to give it up.

But that is not my WHY. My WHY is big and complex and has so much to do with my fear of not being accepted, never being good enough, having to prove myself and risk failure.

I have started to discuss my WHY here all day today - but I am afraid to.

I DO feel good things about my H - but I NEVER STOPPED FEELING THESE SAME GOOD THINGS.

I have always known what is loveable about him, what is good about him.
There was a period of time when those things mattered naught.

He is an amazing man. he is by far the most loving man you could know. He is loyal and true and faithful and affectionate and easily contented with whatever situaiton he finds himself in. He is low-stress, he is fun. He is attractive and enjoys all the intimacy - the kissing and hugging and soft words and all of that.

He is a chocolates-on-your-pillow guy... a notes left by the coffee pot in the morning guy... a total cuddler.

And I never lost sight of all of those things during the A.
They just didn't matter. They weren't significant to me.

And I could say much much more.. but I think, maybe the best idea is to ponder them in my heart.

He is DONE.
And I think, maybe, just maybe, granting this wish is the best thing I can do for him - the most loving thing I can do for him.

We can never go back to the days I was 17 and he was 18... we can never regain that wide-eyed innocence.

And without that, he is miserable.

ls,

Think a bit about intermittent reinforcement and acclimatization. Two very opposite processes but working on you simultaneously.

that's kinda like saying... well, we're not "in love" any more, time to bail out of the marriage.

no, your relationship will never be like it was when you were 18.

but you can have a good 30-year-old-person relationship.

hint: he's not 18 either! so he's not going to be able to get that same thing back with anyone. or even if he feeds off the "new relationship" high for a while...all "new" ones, become "old" ones eventually.
is he planning to go hopping from new relationship to new relationship? Does that fit what you know of him?

Granting his wish IS the most loving thing you can do for him... BUT don't be so sure that you will not be together again. Divorce is imminent... that much is certain. But... the changes in you will be noticed if he is able to forgive and he is not truly in love with his GF. I think you have a good shot at recovering this some time down the road. Just put in words and a letter exactly what you are doing and why. Let him know you still love him and truly want a better marriage than you had before. Pour out your heart and then be still as far as he is concerned. Let him SEE the changes in you...he will notice. I would.

techie,
I do not want the R we had at 17... HE does. I want something where we can be the real adults we have become at 30ish... where our R is defined not by starry-eyed glances and infatuation, but by a DECISION to be together because of who one another is and mutual respect and understanding and appreciation of differences... something that is Intentional and not the result of some "big bang" of passion and being "in love".

I worked hard at maintaining the new relationship high.. it is why he was so shocked when the A was discovered - he thought everything was great - really.

i believe he WILL go from R to R in search of the continuation of that feeling. He has said for many years - "when you are in love with someone it shouldn't be so much work!"

THAT is why I "respect his wish"... he is not interested in the hard work if it means he still can't have the 17yr old us... and he is especially unintereted in that work now that I have proven to be a lying cheating w****.

Not a DJ - we have discussed these things many many times over the past four years.

Thank youfor saying that MEDC.

He is coming over tomorrow night and I will tell him that there is nothing I want more than to build something with him that is strong and true and something that makes our 17yr old love look like puppy love.

...but that I understand he does not beleive that to be anywhere in the realm of possibility now.

I have a pretty firm grip on my WHY. And knowing that, it is the best thing I can do.

Aphelion,
Can you please say more about this?
I understand both theories, and I guess I see how they impact my H more than me... that I "conditioned" him to expect a certain response, and then forced that he acclimate to a new lostsheep...

is this what you are talking about?

if it is worth anything ... I hope & pray you and H will reconcile

Pep

It is worth a lot.
Thank you.

I hope it is clear- this is my desire too...
but all in God's timing, i guess.

“Think a bit about intermittent reinforcement and acclimatization. Two very opposite processes but working on you simultaneously.

I understand both theories, and I guess I see how they impact my H more than me... that I "conditioned" him to expect a certain response, and then forced that he acclimate to a new lostsheep...”


Very quickly,

Paraphrased from BF Skinner’s biog:

Behavior reinforced intermittently is much more difficult to extinguish than behavior that is reinforced continuously. This is why many undesirable behaviors are so difficult to stop. We might be able to resist a child's nagging most of the time, but if we yield every once in a while, the child will persist with it.

To instill a behavior it is best to begin with continuous reinforcement, but if you wish to make a behavior last it is best to switch to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement.


And acclimatization is what happens when you get used to something. In emotional or relationship context a person no longer notices what the other is providing. Takes it for granted. FWW’s IC said this about her ENs that I was filling quite well all throughout her VLTA. She no longer noticed. She took them for granted. Almost like a child that has become spoiled. I became like the air she breathed.

I was thinking more about you than your H. You wrote:

“It is true that the "high" made it difficult if not impossible for me to want to give it up.

But that is not my WHY. My WHY is big and complex and has so much to do with my fear of not being accepted, never being good enough, having to prove myself and risk failure.

I have started to discuss my WHY here all day today - but I am afraid to.

I DO feel good things about my H - but I NEVER STOPPED FEELING THESE SAME GOOD THINGS.

I have always known what is loveable about him, what is good about him. There was a period of time when those things mattered naught.

He is an amazing man. he is by far the most loving man you could know. He is loyal and true and faithful and affectionate and easily contented with whatever situation he finds himself in. He is low-stress, he is fun. He is attractive and enjoys all the intimacy - the kissing and hugging and soft words and all of that.

He is a chocolates-on-your-pillow guy... a notes left by the coffee pot in the morning guy... a total cuddler.

And I never lost sight of all of those things during the A. They just didn't matter. They weren't significant to me.”

There is more than a hint of both IR and acclimatization in your Why. A’s, especially long ones, are like the archetype IR. The initial high of the A is continuous reinforcement; the continuation with fear of discovery is IR. And M’s often become the archetype acclimation. ENs become taken for granted.

Consider the situation when both are operating simultaneously. In a typical affair, even in an exit affair, the everyday utility of the M is used to further the highs of the A.

But it also applies to your H, now. He sure didn’t take you for granted if what you write is accurate. But you did him, for the most part. I bet you intermittently reinforced his affections for you by once in a while, I think you even wrote this, meeting an EN just enough to protect the status quo.

However, not being one of Pavlov’s dogs, he eventually got fed up and left to find a green pasture.

Now he is in his own A, of a sort. He is experiencing the highs. He is in the continuous reinforcement stage.

Too bad it will not last.

Stay your course if you can, ls. H will show up again one of these days.

With prayers for both of you,

well then.... if you've read the marriagebuilders basics, and agree with them (presumably so, or why would you be here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> then you would believe that he is mistaken in his belief, and that him continuing on that path, will lead to much eventual unhappiness on his part.

So.. if you love him, shouldnt you do what you can to help him avoid that pain? To explain your beliefs on the subject, and why you think "that way lies danger", but there is a potential better way to follow, that is proven to work for many people?

i'm glad that you will have the chance to meet with your H

I want to scream today!

So H came over to talk. Actually he came over to gloat over my remorse and rub my face in it and say things like "it's about time you figured some things out." He was a real jerk, which maybe I deserve... but jeezzz. I actually thought he would be, oh I don't know, nice??!!??!

Basically he is of the opinion that I misled him for the whole M and he really doesn't like who I've become, this "Business Lostsheep" that is so busy with school and work... he wants someone who puts him first. Period. And as soon as they stop he'll go looking for someone else.

And, he would really like to work on things but he just doesn't know how I can ever possibly make up to him for stabbing him in the back - after all, he "took me back" already and from the way things turned out he should have kicked me to the curb a long time ago.

SO then today, I called to tell him that the Punk has a bday party that lots of dads are going to & she was wondering if he would go (actually told her friends he would & that he was a great swimmer)... and he says, "Why would I do that? Isn't it your weekend?"

At which point I handed the phone to the Punk.

So he really wants to be the dad who only sees his kid BY CHOICE when the calendar says so??!!

He was actually put out that he had to pick her up early the other day from a sitter b/c he didn't know she was out of school.

He!! he'd never know anything about her life if I didn't tell him.

And this is my fault too - according to him yesterday... I'm the one that cheated, therefore it is MY fault he chooses to be absentee.

The way I feel today - he can have his divorce!
She is an innocent bystander in all of this & I am doing everything I can to mkae this as easy on her as possible. But him? He is trying to punish ME by being absent for HER b/c he knows I am like a mother bear with her cub... and IT IS JUST WRONG AND SICK AND UUGGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't understand him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He is acting and talking like someone I knew once, long ago, in college, that appeared about two weeks after we broke up - doing whoever struck his fancy, not going to class, being a real jerk. But this time it is affecting my baby...
And I want to punch him.

If he doesn't want to be married to ME - FINE. I made that bed.

But what has the Punk done to deserve this???!!!

And yesterday he drops a bomb that he is looking at a job opportunity IN ANOTHER STATE!!! A VERY FAR AWAY STATE!!!! and the only thing he can talk about is how much money it would be & what car he would trade up for....

IN A CITY 2000 MILES AWAY FROM HIS DAUGHTER!!!!!!!!
Who IS this man??!!!

LS,

Your WH is testing your remorse. Don't let him verbally abuse him, but let him get his anger off his chest. After all he has 4 years of resentment built up. He is trying to show you that he doesn't need you anymore. You are the one that got yourself into this mess, and you are going to be the one that gets yourself out. Just stay the course. Your H acted all tough and mean in front of you, but he probably started crying to himself about why you finally changed now after he had finally given up. You need to demonstrate to him that your changes are sincere and here to stay. Let him through everything at you, you take responsibility for what you are responsible for, don't get angry or defensive back, and he will start to notice.

Remember the MB principles: Conflict is better than withdrawal. Hate is not the opposite of love, apathy is. You are starting to lure him back into conflict, so it will be a bumpy ride for a while.

I was as nice as possible when he was here and when he was an a$$ on the phone today, I just handed the phone to DD.

I get his "rationale" - and I'm staying on course - nothing will sway that... but it just sucks that he has to be so stupid in regards to DD.

Hi LS,

and thus:

Don't throw in the towel yet. This is going to take more time than you could have imagined.

I don't know the future any more than you do, but, it could be worth the wait. Time will tell.

All Blessings,
Jerry

((ls))

I want to echo what shinethrough said about not throwing in the towel yet and share with you something I read during my journey that has helped me wait.

It's from "In Every Pew Sits A Broken Heart" by Billy Graham's daughter, Ruth Graham.

"Remember, you do not know what God has planned for your future. You have no idea wha this plan requires in the way of preparation. God never takes on anything before it has been prepared, and our destinies depend not only on the work God wants to do in us personally but also on the coming together of people, events and opportunities."

Somehow knowing that God has a plan that is so much bigger than me and my circumstances helps.

Thank you Johns...
this was helpful, as was the reminder from shinethrough about my own recognition that learning to wait on the Lord is a gigantic struggle for me.

I know this whole thing is refining of a lot of people and that He promises He causes everything to work for His good purpose. I know that.

And, as I have said b4, I'm not a towel-thrower-inner... It just makes me so sad for the Punk.

H called earlier and apologized... it's bait & switch contrived to "teach me a lesson" - which I get. I just hope I can limit the suffering of the Punk.
B/c even though she is being punished ROYALLY tonight... she is an angel.

p.s. I have officially made-over lostsheep today... new cell, new email, new hair (no more hooker blonde which was preferred by D4B (OM), go figure)... and it's much more natural and makes me feel... settled.
Anyway...

That is unreasonable on your part. He really doesn't have to be nice right now... he has A LOT to get off his chest. That he is even willing to say one word to you and meet with you should be considered generous on his part.

I will also say... do not jump to conclusions as to where he will land when he gets over his anger.




I wouldn't go either and I have full custody. If it is your weekend... it is your weekend. Schedules need only be changed for emergencies. I think he could have gone if you two switched weekends... but that should be arranged well in advance. You can ask... but there should be NO expectation that he will go.




LS... this is a 2 x 4 statement coming up... HE wanted to be a full time dad and you took that from him... don't suggest any of this was his choice... it was YOUR choice. And yes, IF you are the custodial parent then it is up to you to keep him informed. Are you the CP? Okay.. 2 x 4 delivered.





Again... 2 x 4! She did nothing to deserve this... so why did YOU do it to her? See I think you are confusing things here...your H did not visit this on your family LS... you did. You have made a lot of progress, yet tonight you sound like the woman that showed up here some time back bkaming him for everything. YOU did this to your family. You cannot fix what you don't recognize.




He is a wounded father that MIGHT feel like fleeing is best for everyone. I have felt that way... and NOW I have full custody and she only has supervised visitation. Are you certain your H is not going to try for custody??? The conventional wisdom on these boards is that a WS should relinquish custody to the BS in the event of a divorce...one of the consequences of the action. What are your thoughts on that?
Do you realize that it is not your H that has torn your family asunder? If you don't, you should. Then and only then will you be better equiped to HELP HIM through this tough time. The sooner you stop pointing your finger at him and take a long hard look in the mirror...the sooner you will be able to help heal what is left of your family.
Don't question the type of father that your H is without expecting to have YOUR role as a mother brought into the same spotlight. And frankly, right now... that is not a scrutiny that you should be encouraging.
Your H is the victim here... not someone to be blamed for the current state of affairs. Find ways to help him and stop judging him.

MEDC

Do you agree or disagree with his attitude, that as his spouse, you should put him first?