Hi All,

I'm starting to hit a crossroads here and I don't know what to do, esp. since I am both the WS AND a BS.

My wife and I have been married for 3 years. Dated for 10 months, engaged for 1 yr. 3 children involved - My stepdaughter (7), daughter (2 1/2) and son (1 1/2).

I have cheated on my wife multiple times. The first time was while we were engaged, the final time was in August 2006. They were all ONS with different people (yes... escorts). Yes, I also cheated on her while she was pregnant. She found out about my infidelity by the usual 'getting suspicious, snooping around on the computer, I didn't cover tracks well enough and left evidence behind.' I denied initially, then finally admitted. She begeed for it to not happen again, and I agreed, but of course I did it again. And again. And she didn't leave.

As I stated above, the last time I was unfaithful in a physical sense was back in August. The ONS I had with that person continued to call my cellphone over the next 4 months at random intervals, initially by calling with her # exposed, then calling with the # blocked. Left a few voicemails of a sexual nature. Every time I showed my wife 'she's calling again'. I never called back. Until Jan. 7th. I made the mistake of calling back in anger to tell her to stop calling and leave me alone. I was out at a bar when this happened watching the football playoffs. There were multiple phone calls into my cell, and then a 10 min call out. My wife saw this on the phone records. She left with the kids the next day and moved back in with her parents and has been there since.

My wife and I were big into a very popular online video game. I used to play MMORPG's all the time before we were married and she got into this last one. Yes, it was a large part of neither of us meeting each other's ENs. IT was taking that place to an extent. I would come home from work, eat dinner, then sit and play all night until I went to bed - where she'd be already sleeping. While I was at work during the day, she would be playing all day long while at home with the kids. She ended up developing a friendship with someone within the game (whom lives in the UK). To this day she still denies it's cheating and an EA ('We're just friends'), but I have found emails back and forth professing love for each other, slamming and bad mouthing me to him when we have had fights, and I even found that he sent her $500 via Paypal a week and a half after she moved out. I know they still communicate, because she had told me they do. I also know they talk in a sexual nature to each other because of references to such in emails. I also found emails she sent to friends stating that 'he (meaning me) only thinks this is temporary but as soon as I can I'm divorcing him'. This was within the first week of moving out. Any time I make mention of things being over or asking her 'is it over' she answers 'i don't know'.

Since she has left I have done the following:

- Have not had a drink since Jan 7th - the day I was out at the bar.
- Quit smoking on Jan 13th cold turkey. I was smoking a pack/day for the last 20 years. I have not touched one since, and I am in a support program for this.
- Uninstalled that game, and threw all copies of it and any other online MMORPG game that was in this house out.
- Entered into IC.
- Am on a waitlist for outpatient alcohol treatment.
- Have not had sexual relations at all. While I know this seems like something obvious, we received our tax refund back already. Where I could have taken it and had escorts come over and gone out drinking every night since I am all alone and gone the whole pity/martyr routine... I haven't. It went to pay bills. Daycare. I paid HER car loan off with it. The rent for this month here. The electric and cable bills off in full (they were behind). The mistake I made was not sitting down with her and asking for her input on where this $$ went. She is still mad about that, but one comment she made 'yes I am mad that I didn't get part of the $$ for me to spend on me because I deserve it' sticks in my craw. I could have been selfish and done what I listed above. Or bought a new TV. But I chose not to. I did the responsbile thing, and then I get something like that thrown in my face. I know it's a part fo the lashing out, but it still hurts.

I have also bought SAA and HNHN4P. I am halfway through SAA (currently reading about the LB's). I'm not sure what to do next. I know why I did what I did. My wife is not the first person I've cheated on. It's based on the script I wrote for myself years ago - I don't deserve anything good in life. Job's going great? Call out too many times. Relationship's going good? Screw it up. She still won't leave? Do it again. I realize this now. That script is in the garbage. I DO deserve all that is good in my life - my kids, my wife, a good job. And yes, I am willing to do ANYTHING to fix this. I am fully aware of what ANYTHING is also.

I've asked her several times if she would go to JC. She has said yes... initially it was 'inly if you go to IC'. The last time I asked her.. she did say yes after I qualified that I didn't want her saying yes just to shut me up and change subjects... would you go? A pause.. and then 'Yes' in a much softer tone. Seh offers to do my laundry stil at her parents house. She offers and does drive me to my IC sessions. But I still do not know if she is just being nice and congenial and it's really over... or if she doesn't want it to end, but then there's still the EA going on. And that is something that I'm not sure how that will end. I know she talks with him on the phone every day and also by text messaging over the cell. Her Internet access has been severely restriced here (yes she still has access to this house. My stepdaughter is picked up and dropped off for school by the bus here every day) because I put a password on the computer when it boots up so she can't access the PC here, and her mother has the Internet down at her house during the day so my wife can't access. My MIL is actually furious at me right now and has told me point blank that she views the marriage as over, that there's no way we could get back together because there's no happiness there and I hurt her daughter alot. Yet... my wife doesn;t talk to her at all so she deon't know what going on in her head. So I know that's all based on just my MIL's feelings. I have already told her twice that I intend on doing whatever it takes to fix things and amke this work and I have apologized to her, my sisters-in-law and my father-in-law.

I don't know what to do at this point. I don't know how to reconcile doing what I need to do as the WS... but also dealing with the hurt of being a BS at the same time. I know I need to Plan A my wife either way (and her family too)..... but it feels like I'm missing something and I don't know why.

One last thing, and I know I may get slammed for bringing this up since it will look like I'm trying to minimize what I have done. And I'm not - I've hurt my wife immensely and I cannot take that back. The circumstances under how we met? She was engaged to my stepdaughter's father. Unhappy in that relationship - and started cheating on him in PA's. ONS's and also seeing people ... including me. She jumped from him to me... and now from me to this online guy in the UK. It's a pattern and I see it... and I'm scared. I want my family to be together. My stepdaughter has been through so much in her short life of 7 years... she doesn't need any more pain or instability. And I love my wife. Dearly. If I could take her pain and hurt away caused by my shortcomings I would.

Welcome to marriagebuilders. It is a good place to be under the circumstances. I was lacking much hope for your marriage when I first starting reading your post, but it sounds like you are working on your issues, which is essential.

Congratulations on stopping drinking. That is a good start. Until you get into outpatient treatment, I urge you to go to AA. They have an excellent program.

As you work on your issues, your wife will see your changes and have some hope. That is what I would concentrate on now.

Thanks for the reply. I'm just curious why you stated you didn't have much hope when you first started reading? What exactly made you feel that way?

I also have another question, and I don't know if I did this wrong or not:

Because she left, I was told to start doing things for myself, grow myself as a person.. but also to protect myself at the same time. I went and opened an individual bank account. She found out about it, acted 'ok' with it but makes comments about the $$ not being readily available to her anymore.

I don't know if this is a 'you are controlling me still' reaction from her (that is one of her issues - she felt that I controlled her, or tried to, in many areas. She also feels her mother is doing the same thing now at that house with the Internet being turned off as an example) or if it is a fear-based reaction because she really doesn't want the marriage to end and doing this is a sign I'm willing to start moving on. She works part time and doesn't make enough money to move out on her own alone so I would guess a part of this is fear of not having money at all, but I don't know if it's any more than that.

As I mentioned in a previous post... I'm in Plan A. So I don't know if I jumped the gun on this one and if this was supposed to be a Plan B move. I've already told her that when it came to the kids access to $$ is not an issue. I even suggested taking one night/week where we both went food shopping together for the kids (this would also afford us some alone time together as the kids would be watched by her mother/sisters). I got a pause and a 'I don't know... I'll think about it' response.

/bumping for my last question.

No opinions or advice at all?

Hi-
Don't be concerned about the lack of responses; the weekends are usually slow. This is a holiday weekend (school is out on President's Day in the United States) so many people are not on the forum right now.

I see red flags in your first post.

1) I am concerned that you are addicted to sex and alcohol, not to mention gaming. Marriage Builders principles do not work with people stuggling with addictions, so focus on getting treatment for these first. Like believer, I am encouraged by your progess in this area.

2) I would put the money back into the joint account. Witholding resources is definitely reserved for Plan B. Right now, you want your wife to trust you. How can she trust when you remove her access to your joint finances?

3) Your tax refund. Of course she was entitled to half of it. You want her to be grateful because you used it to pay bills not for escorts? I detect a sense of entitlement in your posts, which concerns me.

Keep at it and read the free information available here. Stop thinking about your wife's EA and focus on ways you can improve yourself.

Best wishes,
~Saturn

Corwin,

I'm halfway through your post...I wanted you to know that it's a lot to take in...so I'm chomping it down a bit.

Are you giving yourself kudos for your personal recovery actions? Are you finding the joy in being free from your acting on your addictions? About knowing why you chose to do what you did for a lifetime...and discovering you can choose not to?

I'm applauding your ownership...my own came from great pain and when the pain of not changing was great than the pain of changing, I changed...

Welcome to less pain.

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First thing I saw was an inconclusive conclusion...where you realized you choose your self-destruction...which is great insight and ownership. The conclusion won't get you anywhere...it has the word "deserving" in it...which is part of the cycle of addiction. I would offer a replacement word...you are whole, complete and marvelously made, separate and equal to every human on this planet...no deserving in it. This knowledge, choosing to not believe this, is what fueled your addictive cycles...the A's, drinking, all of it. Knowing that humans are powerful and limited and getting to know them (which I hope AA or Alanon are a part of your support groups right now), is the freedom you've been thirsting for...and it really wasn't to be free of yourself.

Next one are where you are at with the LBs...Disrespectful Judgments...those DJs which we choose to do; and what we do to others, we do to ourselves.

" I could have been selfish and done what I listed above. Or bought a new TV. But I chose not to. I did the responsbile thing, and then I get something like that thrown in my face. I know it's a part fo the lashing out, but it still hurts."

In ownership, there is no judgment...you don't reprimand yourself harshly nor take reprimands from others. You go for The Truth...to see reality...which you've developed complicated evading techniques for...so did I. Here, you own that an act of love would have been to act as a team, joint money spent from a joint agreement...then you yank that back. You blame. Good to know what you reach for...no judgment here. You did what you did...you were going for not doing what you've done before...and you overstepped. Easy to do as you're making yourself new...changing what you choose to do and not choose to do...

Respect her feelings, thoughts, beliefs as her own. They are. They are valid. Yours are yours...and they are valid, too. You're learning amends...which clarify life...and your power and limits. The Truth was that you negated her input...your truth was that you wanted to do right by your family. All good to know.

You will feel pain...hurt...and it comes from the inside...not her doing to you. Humans have emotions...they are signals to us from our beliefs. You lived your life from your emotions...taking signals as fact...when they aren't. They're signals for you to check the belief you have...and to live from your beliefs.

Which is why I began with asking if through your new ownership, are you getting great signals?

Would you consider adding another book to your collection? Out of the Shadows...I think it's by Carder...

And check your intent over and over again...are you changing yourself for your self...or are you changing for the gratification, control, manipulation of others and their response?

When we've lived a response-based life, we've made ourselves slaves to others...and resented, sabotaged, and rebelled...as if they were doing it to us. They weren't. We chose this slavery. We an choose freedom, instead. What I see you doing now is choosing from your code...not based on possible response. That's where it is easy to overstep...these choices are new, foreign and scary. Choose to your code, anyway.

Begin by knowing your code...what's in it...what you choose as your standards and boundaries. Standards are what you don't allow yourself to do to others or to yourself; when you act against your code, you amend...

Boundaries are what you don't allow others to do to you; they are the same as your standards; and when others do, you enforce your boundaries.

Awareness, not judgment, will save your marriage, inject respect and give you a life free from slavery. You're doing this now. I'm just pointing it out so you can see...since you've lived through others' eyes, their opinions (sometimes taken as fact), their thoughts, feelings, beliefs and perspective...this was the way back for me...to come here, get guidance through others' eyes (my choice) so I could get to my own and get used to living from the inside.

Do you know you can't fix anything? Not even yourself...to fix says you are broken...and you aren't. You are only half of any relationship on earth...you do your half. That's not fixing, that's living. Important perspective to choose so you don't judge yourself based on the other half's response...which gets you right back into living deceitfully...in slavery.

You've got your goal...you want to have a thriving, healthy, respectful marriage, where you are faithful, joyous and equal. Have I got that right?

You are willing to live from truth and experience a truthful, honest life...with ownership (not blame), in your power, honoring your human limits.

That's what I hear in your post.

Back to your self-destruction realization...you can only feel loved when whatever you do, you're loved anyway. Like making others prove you're worth loving. Proving the negative.

You're not nuts and you're not alone. Consider reading John Bradshaw's books on Shame...."Healing The Shame That Binds Us" and "Homecoming"...helped me to see that the self I was adamant about destroying was innocent...what I was really trying to do was dismantle my second self, the self-image I built with my child's hands (lousy idea), and then tried to maintain throughout my adult life. I took God's creation and named it insufficient, bad, wrong, unlovable. Then I created my own...and felt insufficient, bad, wrong and unloved. ROFL. Totally forgivable.

Your real self is innocent...whole, complete and stunning to behold. Behold it, anyway. You choosing to discover, know and act from your authentic self is not dependent on what your WW, children, parents or anyone else thinks...you only define you. God's design. When you begin living in that design, life changes...everyone changes...rely on it.

"she did say yes after I qualified that I didn't want her saying yes just to shut me up and change subjects... would you go?"

Here is where you are living from disrespect and may not know it. What you do is choose to find a great MC/IC...and do IC...for you, your children...your life. Then you share your choice with her. That's respect. Then you won't choose to believe you can make her say yes to anything or no...which is The Truth we live in as humans. She chooses. She can choose from whatever reasons she has...they aren't yours. Respect they aren't. She can't shut you up, make you talk, share, feel, think or believe anything...only you do that. Choose to do all that from respect.

You're going to IC...share here what that's like for you...there are many IC's who don't help you grow...be aware that your half of IC is as important as theirs. Does your IC do MC? Is your IC pro-marriage? Does your IC encourage you do act a certain way rather than be?

"But I still do not know if she is just being nice and congenial and it's really over..."

Is your IC helping you to know what you don't know? What you can't know until it's shared by her? Hard to be comfortable with what we don't know...only respectful way to live, though. Get there. You don't know. Just like you don't know her choices...if it's over or not. What you do know is your perception that she is being nice, congenial. You know how that feels inside you. You do know she chooses to take you places, offers to do your laundry...these are acts of service...ask her what her love language is...so you'll know if these are acts from love.

She may not know. Be okay with her not knowing...and you.

She's in an A and therefore, in the fog. You just broke out of the fog...which is living in fantasy, not reality. You may want her to be free of it, desperately, as well. Remember how hard it was, living that way. Respect only she can break out of her fog. Just like you did.

"or if she doesn't want it to end, but then there's still the EA going on. And that is something that I'm not sure how that will end."

Again...where your thoughts are, there is your treasure. Don't treasure the future...it's not here yet. Don't live in the past, it's gone. You are in the present, continually, unyieldingly in the present...that's all humans have...choose not to dwell on what ifs and if only's...they are fantasy. Seat yourself in reality, firmly, making your intent to know what is now, and be okay with not knowing what isn't now.

"I know she talks with him on the phone every day and also by text messaging over the cell. Her Internet access has been severely restriced here (yes she still has access to this house. My stepdaughter is picked up and dropped off for school by the bus here every day) because I put a password on the computer when it boots up so she can't access the PC here, and her mother has the Internet down at her house during the day so my wife can't access. My MIL is actually furious at me right now and has told me point blank that she views the marriage as over, that there's no way we could get back together because there's no happiness there and I hurt her daughter alot."

Know that as MIL's opinion. Miracles exist...when you open yourself to see we choose today, and only today, what we do, think, feel, believe and perceive...then you'll know that they exist. Choose your own belief...that this marriage can be saved...you're new...your WW is new...every day...and you want to be far along in your personal recovery when her fog breaks.

"Yet... my wife doesn;t talk to her at all so she deon't know what going on in her head. So I know that's all based on just my MIL's feelings. I have already told her twice that I intend on doing whatever it takes to fix things and amke this work and I have apologized to her, my sisters-in-law and my father-in-law."

Do amends, not apologies. You've owned (not apologized) for all that you've done...get straight with yourself and own all your past, those choices which were attacks on your marriage, write them down...and then do the amend...say where those choices came from, (your whys) and how you know it was your choice and you won't choose to do them again. Then live it. Give this amends to your WW, for the purpose not to get her to believe--to show to yourself your commitment, ownership and newness. Let the outcome go.

"I don't know what to do at this point. I don't know how to reconcile doing what I need to do as the WS... but also dealing with the hurt of being a BS at the same time. I know I need to Plan A my wife either way (and her family too)..... but it feels like I'm missing something and I don't know why."

I hope this helps you to find the missing stuff...Plan A, to me, is Plan Authentic...knowing you choose to love your wife, your real one, not the alien...and every action you take, you know you are choosing to do based not on her response, but to demonstrate your belief you love. When you get your intent straight...that you're choosing to act on your love because YOU love...and you do...then you will fill up with love, the signal you are living love...and overflow. You stay mindful of your intent (old intents slip in and out), aware and honest. Your highest honesty, at all times. And you act from love...

You share aloud who you are now...you state your gratitude when you accept your own actions and others'...know where it comes from...get to the core of your being, Corwin...see God's design that all humans choose what they do, from their stuff...your control, cause and cure ends with you...and others cannot control, cause or cure you, either. That others allow your influence, and to what degree, or they don't. Not your ability to make anyone. From this knowledges, you respect others' for their stuff...listen and repeat for confirmation and clarifty...and revoke your permission to react, and invoke your permission to act.

This is who you really are, Cor...your original self...you've been there all along...you know all these answers...they will resonate in your chest, choke your throat with gratitude and celebration...freedom does that...and you will learn to trust, love, accept your true self...and be an amazing half of any relationships.

You're fixing your part...let the outcome go. Plan A with respect, honesty and listen to know, not to judge.

"One last thing, and I know I may get slammed for bringing this up since it will look like I'm trying to minimize what I have done. And I'm not - I've hurt my wife immensely and I cannot take that back. The circumstances under how we met? She was engaged to my stepdaughter's father. Unhappy in that relationship - and started cheating on him in PA's. ONS's and also seeing people ... including me. She jumped from him to me... and now from me to this online guy in the UK. It's a pattern and I see it... and I'm scared."

You had this pattern, also. Another thing you two share. You snapped out of it...so can she. When you fear, tell yourself that truth...she is as capable, whole, complete and marvelously made as you are. When you own and share your stuff with her, use "I" statements..."I soothed through fantasy, kept feeling others made me feel...and they didn't. I feel relief, terror and joy in realizing this." That's yours. Share it. Not to get her to snap out of it...out of your control...to acknowledge to yourself and others who you really are.

"I want my family to be together. My stepdaughter has been through so much in her short life of 7 years... she doesn't need any more pain or instability. And I love my wife. Dearly. If I could take her pain and hurt away caused by my shortcomings I would."

About your children...a must-read, IMO, is "Between Parent and Child" by Eincott. That's where I learned how to respect people...see The Truth from their truth...and honor theirs and my own.

And the book, "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend.

You can't take pain away from others...you know that...it's their own. Mind yours...you have caused equal pain inside of you for decades. Neither of you deserved this pain...these punishments. You both can grow from it.

God's design...not mine.

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Welcome!!!

LA

Thank you both for your replies. You both have given me things to not only think about but act on as well.

The only thing I have question on is something Saturn said:

"2) I would put the money back into the joint account. Witholding resources is definitely reserved for Plan B. Right now, you want your wife to trust you. How can she trust when you remove her access to your joint finances?"

and I fully understand this. This is why I asked if it was a mistake to do so. My situation, honestly, is paycheck to paycheck, and to play devil's advocate, I was looking from a 'protect myself because she is in an affair herself'. here has been talk between the two of them of him coming here. Of her wanting to get her own place. Since she doesn't work full-time, if she had a 'moment in the fog' and cleaned the account out I would be stuck. This is why I'm torn - show trust, or protect myself?

Just Learning (my hero here) told me once that there is power in allowing yourself to be vulnerable.

Something to think about.

Best wishes-
~Saturn