Hello everybody,

WW and I are 3 months past DDay. The A had just broken up not long before DDay (OM said he didn't want to do this until WW "made up her mind"). November was very rocky, with WW saying she wanted a D and driving out to see OM a few times. December was better, as WW started a new job and began to reconnect a little with me. January was much much better, as WW finally began joining me in phone counseling with the Harleys, and we moved into a new home together. WW also initiated our signing up for the MB weekend, which was the first real initiative I've seen her take.

So here we are in February. WW still does not read any of the books I have bought (SAA, HNHN, LB, Not Just Friends, etc.). Also, we never did agree on a "real" NC letter, as we both agreed that the first one she sent in November wasn't genuine. She has agreed verbally with me that she will not only avoid all contact, but will tell me immediately if any contact does occur, but she had to be persuaded that this was even a reasonable request. She is still in "Protect the OM" mode, where she doesn't want to be "rude" in an NC letter that makes it very clear that contact is not tolerated for life.

We had a nice Valentine's Day. She sent me flowers and candy to my office (yes, flowers and candy and yes, it felt a little strange as a man, but I'll take it). The day after Valentine's Day is when the trouble began. I had noticed 3 Valentine cards in her shopping bag. 2 were given to the kids that night. When the 3rd card still hadn't been delivered to me by the next morning, I started freaking out, thinking that it might be for OM (Text of card read: "Valentine: I found my place in the world the day I found you"). I confronted her on it Thursday morning and she showed me that it was still there barely hidden on the kitchen table and she just hadn't had time to write something for me yet, but that it was of course for me. The more I thought about it, the more I realized she must be right. If she wanted to give OM a card, she wouldn't bring it home and leave it on the table, not when she works one block from OM and could meet up with him. And she would have given it to him on Valentine's Day, not the day after.

Anyway, that set the stage for Thursday evening. Way back in November, WW told me that if OM pursued her, she would leave me. That's always bothered me of course, and I kept thinking we'd get to a point where WW would clearly CHOOSE me, and not just be with me because OM dumped her. So I asked her that night, "if OM were to contact you and say 'I made the mistake of my life. I need you back. You're the love of my life, let's get married', what would you say?". She said, "I'd say it's too late". I asked her if she'd say anything else, and she said no. I suggested, "how about 'I'm working on my marriage and your approaching me is not acceptable. I am going to inform my husband of this contact'" She said she has "no need to hurt him". I said "well, you're hurting me by worrying more about his feelings than our marriage". Well, she flipped out, saying that nothing will ever be good enough for me. "I have no hope, there's no point in this, blah blah blah blah". I told her these are all the reactions of someone in an ongoing affair, not someone in recovery. I told her to divorce me then, and then she backed off. She remained verbally abusive throughout the night though. She also started saying there's no point in going to the MB weekend.

We toned things down the next day, and typing this days later now we are doing better. She is repeatedly asking that I "show faith" and believe that she has chosen me, and that if "I can't show faith then it will ruin it for her".

So I know what you're all thinking, because it's the same thing I'm thinking, and I even told her so. She must still be in contact with OM. Here are some more facts, if it can help you figure out what's going on in our recovery:

- There is limited, but not zero, time for contact. We are together every evening, and even commute together more often now. I also have access to her work email, and her "sent mail" shows that she is at work and seems to be productive most of the day. She still has plenty of opportunity to meet him for lunch or talk to him on her office phone though.
- We are emotionally connecting in many ways. We have been sharing daily goal lists with each other since New Years. We include our work goals and task lists, but also personal goals including behaving with integrity and loving/caring for each other. She has noticeably changed in how she relates to me and to the children.
- We have SF about twice a week, which is about 50x our rate during 2006.
- I still initiate affection more, but she has started to do so as well. Still though, she doesn't like to say "I love you" even if I say it first to her. She used to say it all the time before the A.
- She's never expressed any remorse for the A, and seems to still think it was justified by my "abandoning" her.

So in a nutshell, our M is getting better, but I still don't trust her as far as I can throw her. It angers her when I bring up measures that could help protect our M against the possibility of contact, saying that she has chosen me now so there is no need for such things, and that I'm just trying to punish her by bringing it up. IS THERE ANY CHANCE SHE COULD REALLY THINK THAT? I keep thinking that if I were the WH and I stayed in the M, that I would do anything my BW asked of me to protect the M. But then I could also see how she REALLY doesn't want to think of the A anymore as she certainly can't be proud of it.

So please, what do you think? She's in contact right? Or maybe she's just in withdrawal? Will she ever get to a point where she doesn't have the urge to protect OM, or even better, see him as the horrible mistake that he is? Is it too much to hope for that one day WW will say to me "NS, I am so sorry for all the pain I caused you. I know the A wasn't your fault. Our M was not good, and you were not meeting my needs, but I had no right to go outside the M to fix our problem. OM isn't half the man you are, and I'll be forever grateful for how you fought for me and our family".

Will I ever hear those words? Does it take a Plan B to bring a WW to say these words? Should I just accept a recovery without these words?

Thanks for listening,

NS

Is your MC giving you a plan? Sounds more like u need t/b in plan A for now.

L.

“So please, what do you think? She's in contact right? Or maybe she's just in withdrawal?”

I think both are probably true.

Until complete and total NC it will continue this way.

I went through two separate false recoveries with FWW, and she acted this same way during both.

Everything became my fault. And I mean everything. Especially galling, in hindsight, were these types of affectionate/recovery overtures, like VDay cards and her taking the initiative to sign up for MC. They were smokescreen to cover continued contact. And she would get so angry at my suspicions. She would attack, just like your WW. The best defense is a good offense, right?

My CA tendencies usually won out and I stuffed my fears and my suspicions.

And the VLTA went on for another 5 years.

I think you need to investigate with the probability that she has no intention of ending the A if she can help it.

Start documenting for eventual Plan B and custody issues.

I’m serious. From what you write about her continuing entitlement, she is not going to come around until a major consequence rears its ugly head.

With prayers,

Thank you Orchid and Aphelion for your replies.

Orchid: Our MC is JH. She doesn't seem to approach counseling much from a "plan" perspective. She just has us focus on ENs and LBs. On our first session, when I'm reeling at the edge from DDay, she even had the gall to tell me that "we're going to explore why you've been such a jerk"! Yes, I wasn't meeting my WW's ENs, but why would she think it's a good idea to tell someone who's self-esteem had just been shattered that he's been a jerk, implying that the A was my fault? Sometimes I think she forgot that I'm dealing with a WW, or at best, a recent FWW. I'm going to talk to her about this in our next session.

Aphelion: What a horror story! 5 years!? Part of me still thinks that it could never happen, but I'm learning not to trust...I can't believe I've reached a point where I have to learn not to trust. I don't understand how anyone could do that to their spouse AFTER the spouse is working on the marriage in earnest! Entitlement nothing...that sounds down right sociopathic.

I'm going to continue working on the marriage, and working on me. I'll investigate where I can and keep my ears open, but in my heart I have to believe that she'll come back 100% to her family...I don't understand...how could you not? How could someone not come back to 2 beautiful children, a beautiful home, and a BH who just wants everyone to be happy, and is willing to work and change to make it so? I just don't get it...sometimes I just shake my head and think WTF is going on!?

Wish me luck,

NS

I think her lack of remorse is a very very bad sign. If the roles were reversed do you honestly think she would be so accepting to you as you have to her? No remorse implies that her moral compass is still broken and that if the opportunity presents itself in the future she would probably have no trepidation in having another affair. No remorse implies a lot of things and all of them are negative. Is she staying for you or the material benefits of being in the marriage that is provided for her?

First of all, the NC letter is a CONDITION of her being in the M in my opinion. That would be a deal breaker.
No remorse...that will lead to other problems.
Does she actually say the affair was justifiable? If so, deal breaker #2.
You need to establish that NC is in place. I am assuming that you have exposed this A to everyone you could in the OM's life???? Right???

Do you regret buying the house when we told you not to?

That being said, don't think that you are the only one who's spouse has shown no remorse for the A after it is over. Just ask me, SD, or M2L. Just because the A is over, doesn't mean the fog is just ready to roll away. It might take more than 6 months after NC to finally get your WW to admit what they did was wrong. I'm still waiting. It took M2L about 7 months. Just be vigilant to make sure NC is in place. In the meantime, NO LBs!!!

Hi. I'm probably the last person you want to hear from right now, but as a FWW, I want to share a few things. When D4B's(that's OM) W started monitoring his email - we opened a hotmail acct that we only accessed at work. When my cell phone records were being monitored, I bought pre-paid minutes cards (with cash) and a friend (obviously not) gave me an old phone (this was eventually discovered, but I digress).

If I had a nickel for every time in the last four years I have said, "It's over - we're not talking"...I could take a semester off work and focus on school.

For a while, H & I were having more SF and more often that we had in a long time... this was after D-Day #1, but also after C began again.

I was in school FT, and working FT, time was extremely limited... I pretended I had an early class one day a week and left work early to meet D4B.

I am filled with remorse NOW... but then - I had none. Immediately after the first D-day I did have remorse... and, if there could have been true NC - I prob would not have relapsed. But after D-day 2, I made sure my H knew the reason I did what I did was b/c he was a weak, soft, overly affectionate, poor excuse for a man. (that was me as the WW talking)

I had an amazing H, who, as I have said, treated me like a princess, a beautiful daughter, great friends, a pretty house (at first), vacations to see my parents each year... it was a lovely life. And I trashed it.

Please be sure. Follow the advice of the smart people here re: NC, exposure, etc. It sounds extreme... I would have much rather lived through the trauma of being forced to leave my job, perhaps even move to another city, if I could have my family back now. Whole.

I wish you the best and hope she will clear soon. The fog is thick.

~lostsheep

Thank you everyone for your replies...they are sobering but very helpful.

Bryan: I believe she is staying for the children and to just avoid the unpleasantness of a divorce. She's definitely coming around to me, but my guess is that if it weren't for the kids, she'd leave me for OM.

MEDC: I exposed in November to my family and some of our friends. WW self-exposed to her family. I haven't exposed further because the "A is over". I've been advised that "you expose what you know", and I don't know with certainty what's going on anymore. I could expose to OM's work and family (assuming I could find his family), but what if my W really is maintaining NC and I go and do something like that? If I find evidence of contact, the exposure will come swift and broad I promise.

JMWC: Ha ha, I know, everyone told me not to buy the house. I actually don't regret it. I think it has been a good fresh start. OM had been in my old house, so part of me felt I had to move no matter what. I couldn't stand the thought of him having defiled my home, where my children sleep. What you said about it taking 6 months or more for the fog to roll away is really my main hope. I am hoping that it is just still early in the process. I am able to put up with some of these things when I think that if I continue doing my part to build a better M, that the payoff will be there this time next year. Sometimes I expect things to move a little too fast.

Lostsheep: Actually, you're exactly who I want to hear from. Thank you very much for sharing your story. It truly frightens me. Was your H following a good Plan A and you still chose to continue contact? I ask because I feel like my WW can see that her M is getting better, and she sees how the kids are actually positively affected by our better M, so I always find it hard to believe that she would still pursue OM when she has so much to lose and so little to gain. But I do recognize that logical thinking has nothing to do with an A, so I appreciate stories like yours to help keep me on my guard.

NS

NS,

“What a horror story! 5 years!? Part of me still thinks that it could never happen, but I'm learning not to trust...I can't believe I've reached a point where I have to learn not to trust.”

Hah. It was already 5 years old the first time I found out.

Listen NS, all kinds of strange and wondrous things go on in the mind of a WW. There is no explaining it, no understanding it, no rationalization of it. It is all based in entitlement and addiction and no respect whatsoever for you.

Have you read SAA? Remember the WW, Sue? She never showed any remorse or reduction in her entitlement either. Not in the book, anyway. It would be interesting to ask Dr H if they are still married.

You are in a very similar situation to what I was in back then. Do not CA. Do not trust – ever. Investigate. Protect yourself. And have a backup plan.

I am serious about documenting. Keep a journal. If you Plan B you want custody and residence in the house. You want her out. So she finally experiences real live consequences.

All WW are slow learners.

With prayers,

So that I am understanding you correctly... are you saying this A has not been exposed to the OM's wife???

"So that I am understanding you correctly... are you saying this A has not been exposed to the OM's wife???"

Three question marks, no less!

Better duck and cover, NS. 2x4's incoming.

And then inform OM's BW.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Nah... not yet. LOL

OM is not married. In fact, he's 38, never married, and never in a serious relationship. WW and I actually went on a double date with OM and a woman my wife tried to set him up with about 3 years ago, before the A. He is socially awkward and apparently doesn't date much. My WW used to tell me that she thinks he might be secretly gay. I asked her last month if she told me that just to put me off the scent or if she really doubted his sexuality, and she said she still has her doubts about him. All I know is he's a turd of a man.

At the risk of threadjacking my own thread, I have to ask, how do affair partners ever get married when there are children involved? I don't understand how the BS can let that happen. I can tell you right now that my WW may choose to leave me, but OM IS NEVER going to be the stepfather to my children, simple as that. We will all go down in flames first. There can be no compromise, no peacemaking when it comes to the OM coming anywhere near my children, and I don't see how any BS could feel differently.

Aphelion: Thanks for the advice. "Do not trust - ever". I hate that this has to be my motto, but my motto it shall be.

NS

We all (BS) feel the same way about this... however... int he event of a divorce... and on the unlikely assumption that the A didn't end a natural death, there's really not much you can do about it. I have full custody of my son... legal and custodial, so I set the rules... but that is very unusual.

I hope you have been tested for STD's. I always suggest that... but since we do not know that the OM is straight... you should assume the worst and make sure you are okay.

MEDC

MEDC, I hear what you're saying...things happen that the BS can not control. I'm mostly thinking of one particular affair marriage I know of. The COM call the now-married OM "Pop". Good old "dad", the BH, comes to birthday party gatherings and stands by while "Pop" acts like he is the father to these children. I can't help but think I would jump over the table and attack the guy. At the very least, I would make sure that my kids knew that this was the man that took their Daddy away from them.

Is that unfair to the kids? Is it wrong to tell the kids that their new Pop is not their friend? No, what OM did to the family was unfair to the kids.

NS

I personally would want to kill the SOB...and God help him if he would ever... and I mean ever do anything to hurt my child! He would have to hide in a rice bowl in China and pray I didn't find him.
And yes, I think it is important that the kids KNOW what the person has done. I think it would be unfair to not tell them.
In the story that you reference, that father should haul her into court at every opportunity to contest the custody arrangement. Kepping meticulous records of transgressions would help. I would NOT rest until something changed.