Hello all,
My FWW and I are two years into recovery and I'm still struggling with some issues (not surprised about that). The major one is my FWW not meeting my #1 ENs (SF and affection). We have SF an average of once every 4-6 weeks. She says she doesn't get F from our SF and it's not something that can be fixed. I've posted the reasons why in the past and don't want to rehash that except to say you bring to the table what God gave you and maybe that's not enough for some.

Without SF, I know I get tense, cranky and suspicious that something's going on. I don't believe there is but am watching very carefully. I love her and want the connection to her more than just the physical action. When I express my frustrations, she recently told me that the lack of SF isn't going to change so if it was that important, perhaps I might consider "my options". I said like what - get a girlfriend? To this she said as long as she doesn't know about it, she doesn't care. I was very disturbed at this suggestion and attitude! The other option she hinted at was D, if I was so unhappy - this also is unacceptable to me! I've thought about this but don't want to destroy my two kids' lives.

Something isn't right, people who know us, see a happy connected couple but this connection gap is causing resentment and hostility in me, I can feel it. Her responses are just troubling to me. I'm very good at holding my temper and haven't had any outbusts but she said my attitude is "sucking the life from her" - this is a phrase I remember her saying during the A.

I'm just upset to be in a nearly platonic M, with a woman I love and desire. She told me I should go back to our MC and I think she's right. Does her attitude seem right? It seems selfish and inflexible to me. She is very busy w/ work, kids and holds up the house - typical of so many other women nowadays.

Thank you for your opinions, I need perspective!

V/r,
No Way

Perspective.... hmmm....
Well, your wife is either having or will again have an affair. She has some serious issues that need to be addressed in order for your M to survive. She is mean and immature and I am sorry to say that it appears that she has you accepting her behavior to a point. If this is what she considers a marriage... buddy, you would be better off sending her packing.
Taking the score here... she had an affair and has now said that since you cannot please her sexually the most you can expect the gift of SF with her will be 8-12 times a year. Well, isn't she just a catch. Wonder if she told her lover the same [email]cr@p.[/email]
Look, you set the rules in recovery as far as accepting her back. If you did not let her know that these issues needed to be addressed at that time... do so now. This is an affair waiting to happen... and frankly I would put money that it already is... or at the very least, she is laying the groundwork for her next one.
I am sorry you are going through this. But YOU need to take control of this situation immediately.
MEDC

I'm not surprised, almost there myself. What I am concerned about though is the issue you're facing, and your FWW's response to your concerns.



Jog my memory - what exactly are the reasons? I'd like to understand why she believes that they can't be fixed.



I can identify with the tense and cranky part. I'd like SF every other day at least, while my FWW is happier with once a week. So I know exactly the feelings that you're talking about. However, she'd never suggest that it would be Ok if I get a girlfriend and not tell her about it. To me, this suggests that your FWW is likely withdrawing from you and, as MEDC has suggested, this can set the stage for another A.



Other people's opinions don't really count here. What's your FWW's opinion about your M? Does she see her relationship with you as a "happy couple"?



Well, there's one thing - one SF-killer for sure. Refer to Harley's 4 M rules, particularly the "Rule of Time". And no, this does not mean simply telling her that she has to set aside time for you both, but you working with her and doing things for her and together to make sure that the time alone is well spent, and you're not spending it just watching TV because your FWW is exhausted, trying to deal with the emotions raised from today's events and at the same time thinking about what's on the schedule for tomorrow.

Question: what are your FWW's ENs, and if I was to ask her how well you're currently meeting them, what would she say? I suggest talking to her about her needs, not about yours, at least for the moment.

I completely agree with MIM. I am in the same sitch, and my H is working nights...

I'm tired and ill trying to handle today and be ready for tomorrow...the little time that we have together, is a real effort to have SF...I run by my emotions...I have to feel loved, wanted, cared for to be "in the mood."

Nine times out of ten I don't want SF b/c my needs aren't being met...we've had to learn ways to cope during this time...

I wouldn't be surprised if this boils down to an EN problem...well, some woman do have medical problems...any that you know of?

BTW.. I have been holding this thought all day and decided to share it. Your wife is an a$$ for telling you that your equipment is too small to satisfy her. Did it shrink since you got married???? Perhaps the problem is that she "stretched" in that area! Tell her to go get a few stitches! I mean... she married you!!! NOW she wants to complain!
As far as being quick on the draw... well, you CAN work on that and address that problem. But she is being down right rude and I fully suspect not enitrely honest with you about quite a lot. She is only trying to emasculate you further!

I didn't realise that was part of the problem.

One of the questions that I asked my FWW after she disclosed her A, was if there was anything different concerning SF with the OM. She replied that he was better-endowed. I immediately asked her if I was sufficient, and she replied that I was "just right". I asked her if she was sure, and she said yes.

I do know that it would have been an absolute deal-breaker for me if she said that I was inadequate for her in that area. I can change my behaviour, but changing my dimensions? Not very likely.

"No way", you may want to reconsider what you're doing. Take into account what I've mentioned previously in your thread, but if your FWW continues to express that you're physically inadequate to meet her needs, then you basically have two choices open to you: (1) remain in a M where your primary ENs will likely never be met, or (2) go your separate ways and open yourself up to the possibility of finding and enjoying a fulfilling relationship with another W that doesn't have similar hangups wrt physical dimensions.

Rinder,
We didn't do the MB questionaire but did one from the 5 languages of love. Mine is Phys Touch and hers is Words of Affirmation and Quality Time. We just spent six days together, away from the kids on a golf vacation, so we had lots of QT. It ended kinda sour though after a conversation about our/my issues.

Honestly, when she's not meeting my ENs, I'm not so encouraged to meet hers, especially when I know there's no "payoff" to speak in the end. Still, I do try.

I think we'd both agree our M is good except for what I've mentioned here.

V/r, No way

MEDC,

She has told me this in the past, especially since I insisted on following the policy of RH. I didn't think she told me to be mean, only truthful from her perspective. True, we've been married for 17 years and I told her that her "wonderful" experience w/ the OM poisoned the well, so to speak.

I didn't like hearing it, but if it was honest, then that's what I asked for. As far as not being honest about other things, I am suspicious about this. I'm keeping my eyes open and let actions, not words, help me see if anything is going on. I don't think so but I had been lied to before during the A.

Thanks for sharing, I'm not offended and felt the same way.

V/r,
No Way

AH, sounds familiar in my world...first, I'm sorry that your W had the nerve to be so cold; I once told my H that SF was boring and that was the reason I didn't want it...Ouch, I know that hurt him...

Reason I mean this...it appears that there may be a tit for tat things going on...I told my H that to make him mad so that I wouldn't have to have SF with him...it seemed like a chore instead of a pleasure...neither of us meeting the others needs...

I'm not saying that your W did what I did...just sharing with you what happened in my world from a woman's point of view...hope this helps in some way...

My H wasn't meeting my needs...I'm a phy. touch kinda of gal, conversation, a little help here and there and it was like we were living separate lives...I would stay up late on purpose not to have SF, I mean I would dredge the thought of having SF with him...

Not that he was bad or anything like that, I enjoyed my H at one point and am now doing the same...but there was no touching, it was BAM, no thank you, and to sleep.

I told him not to long ago, please don't say "put me to sleep" or anything like that...it was like that was the only reason we did it, so HE could go to sleep...no fun for me...and I lost the ability over the years to open my mouth and speak up...

POint, I avoided it and I didn't care weather I had SF or not...LOL...probably like most woman...

Now, when he would start fulfilling my ENs, I figured he wanted something and that it wouldn't last long...sure enough, the new became the old...real quick...I knew it wouldn't last, so why should I get my hopes up...

like living in a house with a roommate, I would say! We struggled for years, H had his A, we struggled some more, and here we are today better...but I had to change...to wake up everyday and Plan A...to see my H as a new person each day...no taker just giver...it was a lot of work...

And I'm happy to announce, recently I had SF 3 times in one day...not planned...it wasn't earth shattering but it was me and him...no goal of the O, it didn't matter if he did b/f me...just being there with each other...

So, there's my story! I just wanted to share my horrible attitude about SF once upon a time...I hated the thought...I would run the other way just at the idea of having to do IT!

Big turn around...but it started with me...putting the taker away and giving, giving, giving and more giving...

Just me!

I am really sorry that you are going through this!

((((NW)))))

MIM,

You hit the nail right on the head. This is what I have to consider. I love my W, find her attractive and think we're a good match in so many ways. We're raising good kids and have given them a nice home. It seems selfish to break that up. It also seems selfish, on her end, to remain so inflexible and uncaring. Our MC used to make a motion with his hands showing each party compromising and meeting in the middle on tough issues - that's not happening here and I'm very frustrated by it. Your right, the baseline phys problem she complains about is not something I can do anything about.

I've also wondered if she is setting the stage for another A, knowingly or unknowingly. I certainly don't think our M is on good footing with this issue. I was really upset when she said she didn't care if I had an A as long as she didn't know. I stand by my wedding vow and don't want to compromise that or give up my integrity. I also wonder if somehow she knows this lack of SF will strain our relationship and hence drive a bigger wedge between us? I hate that and not connecting with her in all ways - physically and emotionally, upsets my apple cart in all areas - work, home, life. I need to feel grounded with her and I'm not! I'm going to go back to our MC but don't think it's something I can just change my thought patterns on to resolve. I do have resentment about the A and about this lack of her wanting to meet my top ENs.

So, like you mentioned, is it worth leaving if you're ENs are not being met? If we didn't have kids, then I would have left after discovering the A but, with kids, it's not that easy.

Thank you, I appreciate the advice.

V/r,
No Way

I just thought about it...I like it's unknowingly...I had said the same thing once or twice, not in those words and well...I got what I wished for...I was so shocked when I found out...thought he would never do that b/c he was scared of getting a STD and he wasn't like that...

just my POV, but I don't think that size is really the issue...I do think that she said it to be hurtful...I said many hurtful things to avoid SF with my H...

I pray that is the case with your sitch...I will be thinking of you!

OMG...I hope that didn't sound horrible...I just don't think I can make it sound any better...

I'm so sorry...

I think your W needs to explore her truth about the issue...

Your wife's story about size is just that, a story. To put it bluntly, a woman's vagina can shrink or stretch to accomodate. Also a big percentage of females don't reach orgasm from intercourse alone.

There is something else going on here. Hope you will continue counseling to explore it.

How about if you tell her you no longer want to go to work everyday? What would she say if you decided you preferred to work only 1 day every 6 weeks.

Rinder,
Thanks and no worries about your approach. I wanted to hear the voices of experience, so thank you for sharing.
My W just approached me and said she wants to work on a 4th option - where we try to work things out in this area - compromise like our MC said. I hope so but I've seen her seesaw back and forth. She does realize that when our relationship is "off", then I feel "off" - like I said, it effects my work, home and life. The status and wellbeing of my M has a profound impact on me, fortunately or unfortunately.

Believer - Yes, I'd heard and knew that about a woman's anatomy, I just didn't know what the female perspective of the size issue was. I personally think my W's complaint is not entirely true, either with me or with herself.

I hope her turnaround isn't just temporary, I'll have to see - consistant actions, not just words. I don't think she realizes that if she can share herself with me, that can help ease the pain I feel from her A.

Thank you and V/r,
No Way

I think it's a good sign she wants to work on this. There are ways to re-light that fire, but they involve spending TIME together. I know it bites to try to meet someone's needs when they don't meet yours, but if YOU don't try, there's a stalemate.

You need to find out exactly HOW she would like her biggest ENs met, then do those things consistently for at least 2 weeks. Then ask her if she feels you've been doing a better job of meeting her needs, then adjust from there.

Are you lovebusting? Even if you do an excellent job of meeting her needs, if you are engaging in LBs, then meeting her needs won't be enough.

Take care,
Shellybird

Don't love bust, but insist that the two of you get to the bottom of this. It may be emotional on her part, or a lack of hormones, but it has nothing to do with size.

How can I put this delicately, without sounding like some tramp? I've been with various men of different sizes, and it makes no difference AT ALL. Women are made to fit with men.

The only time I had problems was after the birth of my sons. They were big babies, and took some of the tone out, but my doc gave me easy exercises to get it back.

I suggest counseling, because she doesn't seem to want to discuss it in a helpful way.

NoWay,
While in the midst of a PA (unknown to me at the time), my WW pretended to fill out the EN questionairre. She ranked FS support as her #1 EN and said that to be in love, she needed me to make 250K/yr. Do I think she said that to discourage me form working on the M? Absolutely. Do I think she was being honest at that time? Absolutely.

Will I ever make 250K/year? Probably not. We may or may not be in recovery, but 250K isn't quite as important as it was 6 weeks ago.

SB,
You're right on and I'll continue to work on her ENs. We did just spend a week together w/out the kids on a golf getaway. She beat me too (in golf), though that's not hard to do.
I don't think I am, though she says when I talk about our ENs and SF, she's tired of hearing about it and it "sucks the life from her". I think she'd prefer I just give in and accept our situation, which I have a hard time doing.

V/r, No Way

Believer,
Thanks for sharing and that's what I suspected, I had enough pre-M experience to know this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> She claims she can't feel me during SF but I want to keep working at it. I will insist we get to the bottom of this b/c I'm not satisfied w/ the status quo and I don't think she is either, though she claims to be OK with it.

V/r,
No Way

No Way


Maybe it's time to change the conversation.

Do you find that you have essentially the same conversation each time about this issue? Maybe it's the futility of the pattern that's "sucking the life out of her."

I remember that my H and I used to have the "same 10 arguments" over and over again. I could almost script them in my head, they were so familiar. Yet, each time one of those issues came up, we found ourselves repeating the same, tired script.

Do you think you two do that?


I'm curious about what you consider to be the "bottom" of this? Do you mean that you find some way to give her the "F" in SF? What if she decides she doesn't want to focus on her fulfillment? After all, if she doesn't want to be fulfilled (or just decides she isn't going to be), it wouldn't matter what you had down there -- it ain't gonna do it.

When I read the 'negotiation' part, it sounded me to me like she wants to talk frequency (as in what's the minimum you're willing to accept) rather than fulfillment.

You asked for different perspectives, so I'll tell you what I think.

I think that if you want to get this resolved the best way possible you should ask her what she wants to negotiate: frequency or better SF for her plus frequency.

I suspect, that the reason your conversations might 'suck the life from her' is because if you keep having the same conversation about wanting to fulfill her and you keep asking her the same questions about how to do it then she's probably getting tired of that conversation. She might have decided that she wants to accept no fulfillment out of sex and the more you try to change her mind about that choice, the more bogged down the conversation is likely to become.

I suggest that if she doesn't want to be sexually fulfilled that you simply negotiate frequency.

I know that probably sounds really callous and strange but here's why:

Arguing that someone else "HAS" to get fulfillment out of sex is a no win proposition. All it tends to do is set up and feed a power struggle where you "win" and she "looses" if she ever actually DOES enjoy the sex. The longer you argue, cajole, worry, and obsess about her fulfillment (when she says she "accepts" not having any) the greater the power struggle that is built around the issue.

That is not the same as showing concern and ASKING her if there's anything you can do. But, if she says "No." then *shrugs* that means "No."

The trick to getting around this power struggle is to negotiate with YOUR taker for YOUR needs. Let her worry about and tend to her own needs for SF in the negotiation. If she doesn't want to negotiate to get any fulfillment out of sex.. the best you can do is make a good negotiation in terms of frequency for yourself AND leave the door open in case she changes her mind.

Oh, one more thing. I know it goes without saying that if she DOES say she wants x, y, and z to get more fulfillment out of sex then you'd be willing to consider doing those things. I just suspect that she's not going to want to even discuss that given the posts you've made.



Just my $.02,

Mys