huh? When did this happen?

Yes, I am divorced from my first WW (her choice to go through with it)... we are good friends and I visit her home for dinner with her family (H and four kids) several times a year. We have been divorced 16 years.

The second person... we never made it to the altar... she cheated while engaged. I sent her packing and she still tries to get me back.

I am happily involved in a relationship with a wonderful woman....about 10 months now.

MEDC

Thanks, MEDC. I just really like reading your posts because you are always so "to the point."

I was just wondering about you.

Being to the point is a curse and a blessing at the same time... but thank you.
Believe it or not some people are rubbed the wrong way by me being so blunt...lol.
An equal or greater number thank me for that approach...go figure!

Have a nice day.

MEDC-

I'm not sure if you saw my last post. I wanted to make sure you understood where I was coming from.

Given your background now, I'd say it sounds to me like you're probably a very good 'expert' at personal recovery. You've learned how to deal with and get past infidelity in two situations. I can see how you'd have some very valuable insight on that front. And I would think that once the focus turns to that aspect of recovery, you would be a HUGE asset for people here trying to deal with the aftermath. I could have seriously used your advice about 6-9 months into recovery myself.

I don't know that all of that would roll over into being as good in providing advice for marital recovery tho. I think that you're probably great at working through what it takes to recover from infidelity as an individual, but how do you base your advice for recovering the relationship and/or marriage?

I'm not calling you out here. I completely recognize your success at your own individual recovery. I'm simply pointing out that it's not the same thing as marital recovery...and while both are needed, you can't normally work on both AT THE SAME TIME.

For the BS, individual recovery usually starts AFTER marital recovery is underway...or is no longer an option. Doing both at the same time can sometimes lead to conflicts (how do you plan A and nurse your WS through the withdrawl if you're focusing on yourself instead?). In my case at least...MY recovery began once I knew that the affair was ended, and it appeared we had a chance of recovering our marriage. Had it gone on much longer, I would have started working on ME a lot more...and that likely would have resulted in far less effort in saving my marriage. I doubt my marriage would have recovered. But, given the way things worked out, I'm sitting here now, 3 years recovered/recovering in both aspects.

Owl... I want to ask you a question before responding to you...
Are you suggesting that in order to give advice for marital recovery I in fact would have needed to recover my marriage?

If your answer is yes... please explain to me how counselors (including the Harley's) are able to offer advice on infidelity. Would this extend to other situations??? Abuse, alcoholism...etc?

And I do not agree that you cannot work on personal and marital recovery at the same time. Plan A does not require a person to be a doormat...it does not require a person to degrade themself... so recovery of self is possible.

And again.. perhaps if more people worked on recovering themselves, 75% of marriages post affair (5 years) would not be considered a mistake by the BS. Perhaps if they worked some on personal recovery while deciding if they wanted to remain married, they would be better able to make that call. Unfortunately, too many people are emotional wrecks (been there myself) and cannot make good decisions as a result of depression and continued assault.

I understand where you are coming from... I just see things in a slightly different light.

MEDC,

Your insight into my own personal recovery thread would be welcome. I just started it and it is in a similar vein to this thread.

I don't think we're saps for wanting our WW back, especially if you've been with them a while and had a family.

But hanging on to that idea prevents personal healing because you're hanging on to a hope that isn't there.

Ironically, it is when personal healing and improvement takes place that the WW might notice the changes and want to test the waters, at least from what I've seen on this board. I don't see that in my situation, one year after D, which was only one month after D-day from a very unexpected situation.

I am saying that it helps to have the experience of recovering your own M from infidelity if you want to help others, not that it can't be done. Also, most counselors are worthless, and the Harley's are good at it (even though they themselves haven't been through it necessarily) because they are quite intelligent, have studied it at length, and have the experience of working with hundreds of couples that have been through it.

I think some posters here take offense to your notion that if you don't have kids, you SHOULD divorce your WW because that's what you did. I think at the very least it is worth trying to save your M because you get valuable experience at working to meet your WW's ENs and avoiding LBs even when your W is being absolutely HORRIBLE to you. That way if things don't work out, you take that experience with you and hopefully never put your next marriage at risk again. Now, you can't guarantee that your next W won't cheat, but the chances of it are significantly lower of you follow the MB plan for a healthy M.

Why did your fiancee cheat on you? Did you learn from your previous M how not to put your relationship at risk for infidelity? Did you choose the wrong kind of woman again? Was this before you found MB?

Jim... my post was to Owl...

I have a child Jim. In fact I have one of my own and a foster child.

I don't think all marriages that don't involve children that are touched by infidelity should end. But I also don't think that someone in your shoes should wait around forever. I did not want to get divorced in my mid twenties. She did.... we recovered and she cheated again... not because of an unmet need...I know this, we have talked about it over the years...

As far as my fiance... check her thread yourself if you choose to. Her actions baffled even the veterans here.... as well as numerous counselors. Her sign on was Medcex if I remember correctly.

Jim, I would like to keep our interaction at a minimum. You have been very negative towards me and I find it hard to not return that attitude. I don't feel the need to ignore you...but I am a bit tired of having to respond to your negative tone towards me....and rather than going back and forth with you, I would just like to nip it in the bud now. Thanks for understanding.

MEDC

I've got nothing against you, I just think that we passionately disagree about some things. I am more cut from the same cloth as ForeverHers, and believe the BS has a moral obligation to him/herself, his spouse, and to God to do everything in his/her power to save his/her M because you state that you are going to be with that person for better or for worse until death do you part. I won't go as far as FH, and I believe that their is only so much a BS should tolerate. Physical and emotional abuse (including adultery) that lasts more than 1-2 years after the BS has done everything in his power to save the M would be good enough for me to throw in the towel. I also hold the BS up to high standards as well and believe that he/she shouldn't engage in wayward behaviors as long he/she is married, lest they be subject to the same consequences as any wayward spouse.

So, what I am saying is, we can agree to disagree, MEDC. I won't address anything to you anymore specifically, but I'm sure we'll but heads again in the future. I'll see you on jksmith's thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

To a degree, my answer is yes.

The reason that the counselors that you've mentioned are so successful is that they've undergone a tremendous amount of professional study and training to get to their level of knowledge that allowed them to start in the first place. And then temper in thousands and thousands of hours spent assisting and learning from all the marriages that they've been working on. I'd go on to say that a brand new marriage counselor with no actual work with traumatized marriages obviously doesn't have nearly the same skill and tools that an experienced counselor who's seen so much more can bring to bear. Why do we tend to recommend SH and so many other counselors? The first thing everyone looks at is their EXPERIENCE in providing counseling...and their success rate.

So, I really do feel that someone who's not 'been through it' and successfully recovered their marriage is less likely to offer sound advice to someone compared to someone who HAS been through it. Just like I would trust an experienced, proven counselor to fix my marriage before I would trust a brand new counselor who's got no practical experience.


And thinking about it, I can agree that a certain amount of personal healing IS critical before the WS can consider 'coming back. And I feel that the main reason so many of those marriages are unhappy five years laster would be because either the marriage didn't properly recover, OR the BS didn't properly recover. It's likely a combination of both.

But I also think that (going back to our original discussion) expecting to be the WS's first choice as part of your criteria in rebuilding your marriage is going to do nothing but set up a LOT more marriages to never recover. Even SH talks about the inability of the BS to do ANYTHING to improve circumstance while their WS is in withdrawl. And that is because ALL of the WS's energy and focus is on the loss of the affair partner. There is NO focus on the BS during that time...AT ALL!!!! I know...I've been there. The WS normally couldn't care less about anyone other than themselves during that time. It's because they've lost that chance at the perfect fantasy. If it was because they've made their choice for the BS...then why would they have any withdrawl at all?????

Question to all the WS's out there who might be reading.

Did you COMPLETLEY, 100% CHOOSE your BS....BEFORE, DURING, or AFTER you went through withdrawl?

What do you think the success rate is Owl???

So, let me get this straight... someone like Believer that has been here forever... who is not in a recovered M is not as qualified to give advice as you?
How about YOU not being qualified to give advice for people whose spouse had anything more than an EA...and Jim not being qualified to give advice on anything that didn't get past second base...etc. IMO, you have not been through it in many ways.... but I listen to what you have to say and base my opinion on your words about a particular situation. There are people that have been through it that I wouldn't take any advice from. Are you capable of giving advice to a FWS or WS since you have been neither??? Come on Owl...that line of thinking is silly at best.
People that have not recovered their M but that are still here may have more to offer than you since they know what to look for when things get really bad. Just because Believer or I... and a lot of others did not have spouses that acted in ways that made recovery possible in no way makes our input less valuable or accurate. You have been through things... no doubt... yet I see other veterans here that have constantly called into question a lot of things you have said. Does that mean that they have no value... nope...it is based on your experience and it might help someone.
The ability to help others because I am not in a recovered M has been called into question here by someone that is still not in recovery himself. He has a WS that is just as close to the door as she is to him. Do his words have value... yep... has he had my experience with stuff... not even close (and for the record, neither have you).... go figure.
Anyway, I have been watching the other thread you started with interest.

MEDC

To get back to TS's question:

For me at least, I feel that marriages CAN recover after an A, and the success stories on this very forum testifies to that. Sure there will be resentment and a slow, gradual build-up of trust, but it is possible with a system in place and with much patience and counseling.

However, there are marriages that are much harder to recover from. Hiker has a very good thread on romantic affairs, and I think that's what the majority of BS's here are faced with.

For me personally, I'm just about done with my WS. She had moved out (after exposure and promises of NC) only to tell me out of the blue one day that she needed "move out and to think" (uh oh). The moment I found out that she was actively back into the A just about killed any hope or even desire to salvage the M.

So, to answer your question, no, we are not saps. We have made a commitment to our spouse, we love them and that makes us the bigger person here. But IMHO only YOU can determine whether or not when "enough is enough".