YOU do it anyway...speak up...some assuming...YOU are becoming a new person and SO IS your DH...

Well, we hope that he is...


Can you do me a favor and try to look back on your M and see if there is a pattern of this? Honeymoon, H blows up, honeymoon...

Him blowing up COULD have nothing to do with OW...just be about him! There was a clear pattern in my M, when I was able to step back and look at it from a third party POV...

Come to find out it had nothing to do with me...it was his valleys, no matter what I did, this pattern was going to happen regardless...


Did you read LA's thread on manipulation? you may want to take some time doing that...if for anything but common knowledge! I was asked ALL the time what my attitude was and I didn't have one either! This is abuse in my book...

Well, from what I've read anyway...read up on verbal/emotional abuse and see if it applies to your sitch...

I see that Longhorn is giving you some EXCELLENT advice...

I see so many similiarities in your sitch and mine...it was SOO hard to deal with!!! I respect your strenght to deal with this...I think that you did the right thing by throwing the threat back at him...

let him know that you will not allow him to do this...in my sitch things got worse and he started throwing things and breaking things...wanted to let you know this in case that it happens you are not surprised and that IT IS domestic violence...

I have to learn the hard way and didn't know at the time that I could call the cops...

For me, things got worse when I started standing up for myself and I just got to the point where I couldn't handle STBX anymore and it was for me that I decided to get out...

FOR ME, it was the best decision that I've made in a long time...

I'm not saying that I recommend you do this...that IS of course, strictly YOUR decision! I'm just sharing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you are right-on here ... It only has to do with HIM! I need to control how I react to it - that is my challenge.



Oh yeah! My H is a pro manipulator and Gaslighter. I am learning how to deal with it. Prime example: We had that silly incident this morning. He just called and apologized for it. BUT ... the apology was followed by "well, I just hadn't seen a call or TM from you, so I thought I'd be the bigger person." ARGH! I informed him that a comment like that completely eliminates the apology that prefaced it. I told him that there was no sense in saying he was sorry if he didn't mean it. This was followed by another apology and the excuse of being tired, etc.


I'm sorry to hear that your sitch escalated into violence - I'm glad you were able to remove yourself from that. No one deserves to be treated that way. I've never feared my H getting physically abusive with me, besides, he does a thorough enough job of making me feel crazy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It seems like the peaks and valleys are part of getting through to recovery. It just sucks.

So, I am making the conscious decision to:
- be a better woman, wife, mother
- not tolerate infidelity (from either of us)
- not tolerate Gaslighting or manipulation
- stand up for myself, DD, and what I believe in
- ask what needs to be asked, tell what needs to be told, and hear what needs to be heard

Good start to keeping my sanity?

Thank you very much...thing is I didn't think that he would do the stuff that he was...but he was losing control of me...

I stopped conflict avoiding...learned my boundaries...and I got to the point that I did fear that the next step was him putting his hands on me...I mean he burned some of my books, SAA, HNHN, and two others...said that they were man hating books....

He tried to track me down on night when I left for a cooling off period...

I just wasn't giving him the opportunity to do anything stupid...

I, too, often felt like I was crazy...he would say things and then say that he didn't say them! What kind of bull is that? LMAO

Well, YOU, my dear, are doing a wonderful job...keep up the great work!

Not a problem, but I don't work cheap. That's how I supplement my military pension. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is it really? Or are you pulling my leg? I've actually thought about writing a book. (Believe it or not, I'm a good writer ... when I'm not highly emotional and mid-crisis!) LOL

Mine usually does the opposite ... he tells me that he told me something, when in reality he didn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Both of those examples above are classic signs of gaslighting. Whew!

I took yesterday off from my life ... I hung out and relaxed with DD and didn't think about my M. I was so tired and irritable from constantly stressing about it, and H was out of town, so I chose to take a day off! It was fabulous! Of course today it was back to the ol' grindstone - housework, Plan A, getting DD ready for camp, checking up on WH. (Yes, I said WH!)

So, after some checking up here is what I've found:
1. H's last trip to California produced a new woman for him to talk to. One that he talked to at 5:30 am on his way back in town today!
2. Another girl from a trip a while back had asked if we were going through with our D ... after he told me this, I told him he didn't need to talk to her anymore. Well, she sent him a message the other day - I still haven't been told about it.
3. Another girl that I've taken issue with was on the phone list from the middle of the night last night too.
4. Email from a male friend asking about H renting a room at his house .... H's response? "I really want to get out, but I also am being reasonable in know that with my schedule I could and prob would fall short on rent some months ... Luckily, I am gone soooo much that the whole f'ed up marriage ordeal isn't that big of a deal right now."

He's clearly not interested in doing what it takes to save this M - well, he is to my face, but not behind my back. I have gone to IC, improved myself, cut off all male friends, gone nowhere other than work, church, & to run errands, etc. H has simply continued his life and only minimized the number of calls to other women. But they're still there - and the California girl I haven't even been told about!

I am so sick of this crap! His attitude sucks - he is in WH mode and I don't think I can tolerate it anymore. We are coming up on month 6 of my DDay/NC and month 2 of his. I am so close to telling him to go ... he's made it very clear he has no interest in working on this M. I am not angry or in an uproar over this revelation. I am calm and almost think I've accepted that he may choose not to be in this M. But I don't want to give up.

That's very sad, TFC. I'm very disappointed in him, if what he said to his friend is true. I don't know how to fit his apologies to you at the beginning of this trip into this matrix. I wonder if he's only posturing with his friend, trying for the macho image?

The new OW is even more disturbing. On its face, he's not committed to ending those inappropriate relationships. His words in the email seem to say he's detaching from the marriage, and the new girl reinforces that.

Do you have a keylogger on the computer he uses for email, etc? If you do, have you considered confronting him on the new information? A keylogger will reveal any new passwords on his email and attempts to change information on the cell phone on-line records.

So sorry you're having to address these issues, TFC. It may be time for a calm, considered analysis of Plan B.

Hang in there, lady.

I thought this too, but my thought is that its time to start standing up for our M ...


I don't need a keylogger ... I have become a pro at my detective work. I can check the cell phone records from my login, and don't need a separate one to check his.

I wonder if this new girl knows he's married? I'm so tempted to call her myself, but I don't know ...

He's going to be pissed when I tell him I checked the phone records - but I guess if he wasn't doing anything wrong, he wouldn't have anything to be pissed about! So, looks like I'm going to start lining up my Plan B ducks.

All right. Well, it certainly looks like it's time to find out what he's thinking, if he's thinking at all. Time for another D-day/confrontation. I think enough things have added up to warrant it.

What does your best friend say? Times like these are good days to give her a shout.

Don't apologize for snooping. It's been made necessary because he has demonstrated his integrity is sadly lacking. He'll retort you have done the same, but you've committed to radical honesty and transparency...while he's still hiding things.

Side note: Referring to the EN questionnaire, did your need for security ever come up? You shouldn't have to be competing with every new woman who pops up and announces her availability.

Yes, line up your Plan B ducks. Maybe touch base with your attorney beforehand to see if anything new needs to be done to protect your finances if you find it necessary to file a legal separation along with the Plan B action?

BTW, yesterday when you took a day off from all this? That’s what Plan B is designed to give you. You shelter in the darkness where you don’t hear of any new women or hurtful emails.

Set up this new D-day. Be prepared by reviewing your boundaries and know what specific commitments you want from him. Be ready for his anger and don’t let it affect you. Be prepared for an adverse reaction (he stomps out the door), be ready to counter some gaslighting or other manipulation...and even be prepared for him to agree he hasn’t been acting too smart.

If he does the latter, time for some serious discussion about boundaries (not allowing OW to intrude into the marriage), and how he’s going to make sure it doesn’t ever happen again. Frankly, I believe it’s time to address the issue of him not including you on some of these trips and “official” functions too. He’s been playing things loose and free for a while and I think it’s time to end the vacation from marital commitment.

She says I should have divorced him long ago ... I think she's sick of my drama.


I prob should have spelled this out for him ... time to edit the ENs questionnaire.


I think the "vacation" is over too ... or just beginning for him.

I am thinking that I don't even have to tell him what I know. He's been 2-faced and he knows what he's done wrong. I think I can leave it at that. And then expose to MIL & SIL.

So - How long should setting up Plan B take?

Well, your friend certainly isn't given to obfuscation, is she? I’m sure she has her reasons for her opinions.

Exposure to MIL and FIL will bring on a confrontation. You’ll still need to be prepared for everything, including him having an epiphany and repenting.

By the way, you don’t have to let him know you looked at the cell phone records, etc. All you have to do is tell him you know about the new girl and you know about his friend asking if he wants to rent a room. As you say, he knows what he’s done and you’re not preparing evidence for presentation in a court of law. That you can identify the new OW and his friend’s willingness to get involved in this are plenty for him to know.

Darn, whatever he says and does, this clearly sets the clock on recovery back to zero.

Planning for Plan B takes as long as it takes. Make sure you’re ready first…see what the new exposure elicits…then see your attorney. Seems to me your WH’s attitudes, if he doesn’t make an immediate turnaround, might lead him to be less than financially supportive.

My best friend and I are very different people ... she wouldn't have married him in the 1st place. But she is all out of ideas and advice. Its ok - I have to understand. She's always there to vent to, and that's what really counts.

I'm not prepared for him to repent ... I guess I should be, but I don't want to get my hopes up. I enjoyed Saturday so much, that I think I'm close to prepared emotionally for Plan B.


That's whats so odd ... he's been so much better about being financially supportive as of late. But it would be a rude awakening (at least financially) to not have me.

Looks like a confrontation is in order this week. Maybe tonight? Not sure.

I've thought about posing as the original OW and sending him an email to see if he bites ... maybe this is too sneaky?

Oh yes, financial matters (if you go into Plan B) are going to be a BIG awakening for him. Huge wakeup call for many WS's. That's legitimate. Financial security is one of the basic EN's and Dr. Harley discusses it in one of his two scenarios in SAA. I think it was "Sue" who began missing the financial security her husband provided.

I hesitate to suggest you pose as anyone except for yourself. What would you gain by doing that beyond what you already know? Besides, as you say, keeping the high ground is always best.

You pick the time and place for D-day #2, TFC. Don't ambush him, but set yourself up for success in the matter.

Is there anything I should prepare for this time around that maybe I should have the 1st time?

High ground it is! No impersonations ... I was only seeking to gain info on whether or not they saw each other out of town the other week when she TMed him. But I don't want to be taking the low road.

I want it to be ASAP ... I am so over all this nonsense!

{Sorry to take so long in responding. We had a very bad storm here last night and the main trunk out of SAT seems to have been adversely affected. My ISP keeps dropping folks’ connections.}

I'm glad you aren't going to try to set him up to lie about seeing OW #1 when he was out of town. I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right when you looked back on it. On the other hand, you've waited long enough for him to reveal it himself. It's more than legitimate for you to ask if he had any contact with her...or just tell him you already know he did (by way of TM, at least) and you can ask why he didn't let you know.

Be calm, TFC. I think he needs to see you're beyond any thought of histrionics.

Don’t forget, you’re still in a modified Plan A. You’re courteous, but you enforce your boundaries by refusing to be gaslighted or manipulated. (Just reviewing your boundaries before hand will help you keep them mostly intact.)

I can't think of anything to prepare yourself for beyond some generalities. I think if I tried to do more than that, I could get you crosswise on what you know you want to do.

In general terms though, you know he’ll try to put it back on your shoulders. You’ve told me that’s one of his favorite tactics. You can say you’re willing to totally commit to the marriage, to radical honesty, and total transparency, etc., etc., right? Itemize the things you told us earlier this afternoon that you’ve been doing. Throw the ball back in his court by asking when he’s going to commit to those? Etc., etc.

You know him very well. Try to anticipate where he’ll go, TFC, and get there before him…but do it without ranting, if you get my meaning.

Deep breaths, lady. You’re ready for this. You’ve learned a lot in the past month and you’ve grown too. Be the woman the child you once were would be proud of.

Lh - Hope the storm didn't cause any damage (other than your connection)!


He did tell me about the TM, but I think they saw each other too. But a set-up is the wrong way to go - I have to accept that there are some things I may never know.


You're right - this is the way to go on this! "I've done XYZ, what are you going to do and when are you planning on doing it?"

Wish me luck! It may happen tonight!

Yes, it's time he committed to something instead of hinting he's “leaning” in the direction of the marriage and his family. Were I you, I'd give him credit for the nice things he's done...and let him know you appreciated those things...but let him know this latest inappropriate series of phone calls has wiped it all out...or words to that effect. Speak from the heart.

You don't need it because you're preparing yourself, but I'll say it anyway. Good luck, lady.

My best friend came up with her list of why I need to go into Plan B or D ASAP. I've edited names and any other info that would give too much info. Here is her email to me:

"This is a condensed list...

Not answering phone once in CA

Talking to CA girl at 5:00am

Bashing you to [co-workers] and probably anyone else who will listen

Not wearing his wedding ring and possibly telling girls that he is getting divorced or that he is not married

Going on trips without you

Treating you like sh*t...not acting like a husband or even a friend for that matter

Not being a good father to [DD], which is taking it's toll on her...her acting out more and not wanting to speak to him

Breaking promises to you and [DD]

Not being where he should be i.e. coming home from trip when he hadn't seen his family in 2 weeks

With-holding sex

Starting fights with you for no reason...asking you why you have attitude/what's your problem when you aren't doing anything negative

The text messages and phone calls he doesn't tell you about to girls...new and old

Pretty sure he saw [OW] out of town last week

Waiting too long to answer back text messages or phone calls

Upsetting [[DD]

Not telling you about messages/emails from girls

Bashing you in public "My wife is a ******" or something like that

Way too secretive and other suspicious behavior

Tried to open a checking account by himself and when you called him on it, changed the story to you guys having it as a joint account so he could put money in it when he is on the road

Won't cuddle with you

Threatens Divorce

Blames all marital problems on you and your affair even though it is his own actions that he doesn't want to be held accountable for - you've been accountable for yours

You are on a constant emotional roller coaster and he knows just what to say to placate you for awhile and keeps right on doing his crap

Gives you false hope with the promise of vacations or family time together, buying a new house together, etc.

Didn't just have an affair but actually had a girlfriend

Thinks he's single when on the road

The distasteful "boob" pictures which he cruelly left for you to find

He keeps giving out his phone number to girls

Has made no real effort toward working on the marriage and he has had more than enough time to think about what he wants to do...it's JUNE for God's sake!

He is just staying for the convenience to him

The nights he didn't come home and had you worried sick

Possibly going across the world without consulting you

Does not want any family responsibility...money, [DD]"

Keep in mind that those are HER opinions ... I happen to agree with a lot of them, though!