[color:"blue"]i've put this on a thread of it's own so that i could save it to my favorites in case i can use it in the future to help someone else [/color]

i believe there are chapters in every "save your marraige" book that talks about the harm done to children by divorce.

here's a chapter from my life that they could have include in any of those books


I came from a very broken family.....

my earliest memory of my "family being together"

my parents fighting all of the time....bad fights....

my father smashing all of the car windows with a log during one...... being thown out and locked out during another....and knocking, pleading and begging all night long to please let them him home

things like that and worse

was that good for me, my sisters and brothers?

of course not

what was worse?

my mother, and all of us girls seeing my father's car parked and my brother bike parked in the driveway of the married woman that we were soon to discover was having an A with my father.....had been for years....since BEFORE the fighting started

my sister's and brother's earlier memories are of my parents during happier times before the A ruined our lives

i don't have any of those memories

my father left us......6 children to be raised by a stay at home mom with no job skills

he moved on to his new life....he moved in with his married girlfriend and helped to raise her 3 children

sure, we got to visit dad.....and this new family of his

and we felt like we were "visiters"...like they were his children and we were kids he cared about

they got to spend birthdays, christmas and easter mornings with him

we got to visit

but on holidays, my father would usually come through with his child support for a change so we were okay (he "ment well but he was already taking care of a family"....so he said)

they got new clothes, new furniture, a new car

we got to live off welfare

but we were okay....hey we got food from the food bank and clothes from the salvation army

they got braces.....we had medical assistance

they got lunch AND ice cream money.....we got to use the lunch passes that said "free" nice and large for everyone to see.....at least until you wise up and just stop eating so no-one knows you can't pay for lunch

they had both parents....and their mom could stay at home because my dad was supporting her family

we got....a mom who was so depressed from the A and then the D that she barely got out of bed.....so i was raised by my older sisters for years....many years

my father was the man i idolized before he left....i was waiting at the door when he came home every evening...i was the one who curled up on the couch to sit beside him when he watched tv

he left when i was 6......i had a breakdown and ended up in therapy for years

i spent the rest of my life trying to please my dad.....to get his attention

but he had a baby with the OW soon after he left.....and she took my place in his life

my sisters.....well they were tired of taking care of our house and raising us kids......

as soon as they were old enough, they tried to find a guy to get them away from all of this

all 3 of my older sisters ended up pregnant, unmarried, and living off welfare

but it was okay.......they got away from the h*ll they were living in didn't they?

one of them.....she will never get married...she hates men...not because of anything that was done to her.....but because the first man who was supposed to show her love, kindess, and care.....

well he instead showed her that men can't be trusted, they will hurt you, and they will not take care of you

me......well.....the man who i tried so had to get love and attention from......he taught me through his actions that it's not worth it to try to please someone and to try earn thier love.......it's either there or it isn't

and that it's your spouses job to make you HAPPY, to take care of you! to do whatever they need to do to keep you there

because that's what he said my mother DIDN'T do.....and that's his reasons for his A and the D

he taught the values that i took into my marriage....you see, i was smart....i found this really great guy who didn't believe in divorce....his whole family was against it

so i KNEW an A and D would never ruin my life again

i found a guy who believed marraige was forever and you did whatever it took to keep your spouse happy and at home

i didn't even bother to put any effort into earing my H's love too long past the I DO's

why bother.....

but i still tried to please the man who had deserted me long ago....i would show him what a hard worker i am and how i wasn't going to end up like my sisters

so i worked hard....long into the nights

hey my dad was finally proud of me!

but my H? well...he gave and gave and gave....and got lonelier and lonelier

and guess what.....HISTORY REPEATED ITSELF

and my life is now destoyed again

and in case your wondering if there was a happy ending?

my mother never really came out of her depression or had a happy life after my father's A

she never remarried and still loves him to this day

my father never did marry the OW.....they both got divorced but then......nothing

they stayed together for awhile because of the child they had together

then they went thier separate ways

my father tried again to find love

with another married woman

she went back to her husband after 6 months

he sunk into such a depression and said he finally understood how my mother felt

his last years of his life were spent alone and so filled with regret.........

and he told all of us....his biggest regret

was that he never tried to save his marriage

that he never "did right" by his kids

that he "never should have left your mother"

because all of our lives would have turned out so very different

are we the average family who lives through an A and a D.....maybe not

some are worse and some are better i'm sure

but i can tell you that before the A and the D.......my parents and my older sisters all have memories of an "average family" that still had a chance to have a better life than the ones we all ended up with

so from my experience

i believe that it is better for children to be raised in a home with two parents who are providing for the care and welfare of each other as well as ALL of the children

AND

i believe that spouses owe it to themselves and thier children to put everything they can into making this happen

as much as it takes.....for as long as it takes

FOR your children

eav:
I am trying to stay in my "good place" for the rest of the evening, so I didn't read your whole post, but I'll tell you how to add threads to your favorites (or how I did..)

Scroll to the bottom of the screen, under "extra information," on the left, it shows how many are online, who the mods are, and "Favorite Topic!"

When I clicked on that, it sticks it in my favorites folder in "My Home."

This help???

thanks sis! it worked!

i'm changing the title and i'll have it saved if i want to offer it to help someone else.

thanks again sis

Eav... this is how divorve affected you. Very powerful story.... and it means a lot to a all of us here. But let us not forget, that although divorce is NEVER a goal... sometimes it is the best option available.... even when there are children involved.
I know kids that are doing great BECAUSE of a divorce... their parenst being together was just a concer to them and they thrive in a loving and caring two parent household now.
So, somethimes...it would be best to divorce because of the children(and FOR the sake of the children). Sometimes it is important to get them out of the nightmare that they call home where fighting and instability are the norm. It all depends on the situation and the people involved. In the majority of the cases, I think it would be better for mom and dad to work things out...but no where close to all.

I am truly sorry you went through such a rough time.... but I can tell you that my father regretted NOT leaving my mother... and he felt that HE didn't do right by staying with her.. and you know what, he was right. My dad dies two years ago and since that time I and my brothers have seen my mom a total of three times. It would have been so much better for us to see my father find love with a good woman and not waste his years with a horrible example of a mother and a wife. He taught us a lot of great life lessons...but putting up with her junk over the years is one lesson we could have lived without...it would have been better to learn that we teach people how to treat us...rather than taking the scraps they offer.
MEDC

MEDC

if you had read the post i made about how D effects children before i edited it, you would know that i made the post it's own thread only so that i could save it to my favorites in case i wanted to copy it and post it to someone in the future

it was posted to someone who has not put enough time and effort into trying and is ready to give up

that is who i would offer it to again in the future


*******************

so from my experience

i believe that it is better for children to be raised in a home with two parents who are providing for the care and welfare of each other as well as ALL of the children

AND

i believe that spouses owe it to themselves and thier children to put everything they can into making this happen

as much as it takes.....for as long as it takes

FOR your children

***************

Eav - that's a really sad story. I'm so sorry you have such painful memories of your childhood. TT

As has been said many times about the forums, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and this is my own opinion on the subject matter(I know eav, that you did this mainly to add to your favs, but I want to add to the thread).

I think that in the majority of cases of children of D eav is just about spot on! I know people talk about how happy the children are, but there are many statistics that prove that more children of D end up down the same road as their parents. They may have their happy faces on, but deep down inside, they are very torn up. In my opinion, it's very much like how women deal with abortions. they bury the pain so deep that they think they are happy!(I am not stating this to start a tj onto abortion and it's effects, I'm compairing MY OPINION) But at some point it will come back up, many times when you least expect it.

eav, this is a very powerful, first hands, example of how dangerous D is on children. I am lucky and never experienced it my self, but my best friend when I was growing up did. Her family got so screwed up that the only one it didn't really seem to affect was her older sister who had been out of the house for a couple years by then. Her brother, who is in his 40's is JUST NOW getting M'd. This is some 24 years later! My best friend, as far as I know, has never gotten M'd, oh, and by the way, because her mom M'd the OM the weekend after the D was final, I was not allowed to go over to her house with her mother, who had full custody of her, so I could only play with her at her father's apartment! Unfortunately, that also damaged our friendship, and we lost touch, and I hadn't seen her or talked to her for like 10 years, and ended up for mine and Sailorman's 10th anniversary at the restaruant where she tended bar! Immagine that. THEN, even though we exchanged numbers, still didn't stay in touch, and when we came back from HI, ran into her at the zoo of all places, with her little boy who was close to 3 years old. No marriage, and I have no idea on who the father is or his history. So, from my experience through my best friend, D damages the kids whether they show it or not. When you KNOW your parents TOGETHER, and then they are torn apart, no matter how civil it is, it is still hard and damaging on the kids.

Now, there are times when it is vital for a D, as in cases of infidelity that the WS REFUSES to stop and see what they are doing, or in cases of abuse, and I do include emotional and physical, especially if the abuse is physical to the point of hospital visits! I know of other's who endured the emotional abuse for the children, stayed M'd even though they were frightened out of their wits! This woman became a skeleton of herself, even her hair had started to fall out. Eventually, what it took was the abuse began to transfer to her children and she finally D'd. I will not go into details, but the children were a bit older than most here who are reading this thread, and they are on the other side of the coin, much happier with the D.

Each D has it's own story, and I feel that those here, who have WORKED to save their M, can rest assured that they and their children CAN survive D, but they need to be ultra careful, especially with the younger children, in makeing sure they are ok.

And in closing, I want to thank eav for sharing her story with us. Hopefully it can help others.

i agree that there are times when D is best for the children

in situations where there is abuse, of course it is best for the children to D.........after time and effort have been put into trying to change the abusive situation

in a situation, such as the one my mother faced, where one spouse refuses to change their behavior which is harmful to everyone involved , of course it is best for the children to D.........after time and effort have been put into trying to change the situation

and sometimes, a spouse has no say in the matter and is given no opportunity to put time and effort into trying to change the situation

i won't though, support someone not trying because it's what's best for THEM

such as the case which led to my writing this post

a "f"ws who cheated once, and was taken back by her H

cheated again and got pregnant to the OM....and both her and the child were taken back by her H

and has spent the past 8 months being unhappy because her H is withdrawn and not yet taking steps towards healing their marraige......

so she's unhappy and wanting to give up

she needs to know that her selfish choice to give up this soon is not what is best for her children

i would say the same thing to someone in a situation such as my H's A

the OW at one time wanted to try to reconcile with her H

he didn't want to try because it was what was best and easiest for HIM....not for the children

the 4 children, ages 6, 9, 15 and 16 knew of the A for just 3-4 months because thier mother had moved in with my H

her H said to me "the children have adjusted well and have accepted the situation"

he alaso wasn't willing to put the time and effort into trying to change the situation

perhaps in that situation you missed the fact that she has relayed that he was always emotionally abusive. Always. So, changing herself and recovering from the A may only bring her back to a man that doesn't respect women in the first place and who (HE) had talked of getting divorced even before her affair began. See, I think their marriage is POSSIBLY worth the effort at this point...but only if he gets IC for his views of women and his emotionally abuseive ways that existed BEFORE her affair.
And really, who are we to say that a person hasn't tried? Do you know that she hasn't tried...because I see that she has...do I think she MAY be able to do more...yep...but you have said she hasn't tried...

"i won't though, support someone not trying because it's what's best for THEM"

Just some things to think about Eav. I see the purpose of your thread and it is admirable...but you seem to be leaving out some facts regarding her case and also making some assumptions about her lack of effort. JMHO.

I really, really hesitate before writing this but am compelled to say my POV. First, as almost always, I agree with MEDC. No one KNOWS what goes on in anyone else's marriage. We, of all people, should know that by now.

Granted, Eav, as the child of the marriage may have a pretty good idea - but her thinking is highly prejudicial. Hardly any child wants their parents to divorce. Even in the worst of households. And - as Dr. Phil says - it is better that a child BE from a broken home rather than be IN one.

While on subject - and please forgive me Eav - But, I find this whole thread very insulting to the fine posters here. Yes, I understand your thoughts on these subjects totally. You have made yourself clear on most things here.

But - Eav --- the people here on this board are trying VERY hard to repair their broken marriages and NOT have to subject their children to a divorce. But - alot of times this is not going to happen. So, as I see it, writing of the bad effect a D has on children is only, and forgive my bluntness - rubbing their face in their failure at marriage. One thing they as BS or even WS are feeling very badly about anyway !!!

Sorry to say this, but I just found this thread to be very inappropriate on this board about repairing marriages that many were broken before the injured spouse even knew about it --- your's included.

No one here wants to drag their children through a D, at least no one that I have read about -- these are people injured in pain from infidelity -- and trying very hard at just making it through the day.

Sorry if I have offended you, Eav. I really am... but perhaps there are many here already offended by this thread.

Carnation

I hate that word ALWAYS. No one is ALWAYS anything.

I wonder if she's still doing a rewrite of their M. Or has she not bothered to correct her rewritten version from her A?

Was he W/drawn [don't see her BH behavior as "emotional abuse", I see it as w/drawal.] when they were courting? First married? Every moment of their M?

From her own posts she said he was loving to her...reaching back when she took his hand..enjoying SF...Doesn't sound like he's w/drawn during those moments.

Moreover, I remember posts where she wrote describing how he wept and pleaded w/ her to end her A. It wasn't ALWAYS.

~ Marsh

I'm not the least bit offended by this thread, as it is someone elses truth, and that is fine.

There are those here that come to this site looking to save their marriages, and YES, some will not make it. Some come from horrible marriages to begin with, that, unfortunately, have children that will be affected.

I come from a highly FRAGMENTED family, multiple marriages, never knew my bio-father (his choice, BTW), lots of upheaval and turmoil, and too much DRAMA. I would say that not knowing my father has made a huge negative impact. ABANDONMENT is a HUGE issue, as well as REJECTION--DEEPLY seeded in my mind. I think this can EASILY happen to those that KNOW both of their parents.

The FWS in question has her own problems at home to deal with, and may find that ending her M is the best for everyone, but I, too, do not believe that 8 months into recovery is ENOUGH to stop the process. She has damaged her M in more than one way. Now, if she puts in 200% of a Plan A and gets no ACTION from her WH, THEN I feel there is a good chance that things will not change. I don't hear that. I hear someone talking of what her H was like before, and have heard more about her H than her own personal recovery.

I guess the question will have to come down to, WHEN IS IT ENOUGH? Each one of us must make that choice on our own. If the FWS is still wondering what she should do, maybe it's time to reevaluate what she HAS done, and what MORE can be done. If there is MORE that she can do, on her own, to attempt to save the M, and pull her FBS toward her, then I say stop asking questions and DO IT. IF she feels that there is nothing more that she can do, then she can D with a clear conscience, I guess.

I have heard why the FWS SHOULD D her H, but nothing positive about why she SHOULD NOT. Why did she return if HE was that awful? What happened to ACCENTUATE THE POSITIVE here. Who has advised this FWS to look at the good in her H, her M?

Sorry, eav, not trying to threadjack, just wondering aloud, what has been done to help steer this FWS in the direction of positivity; of HER healing?

MEDC

i hesitate to accept the opinion of someone who still clearly has the mindset of a WS and says that their spouse "has always been emotionally abusive"

i have come to accept through reading your posts that you and i rarely think alike

i do not even agree to the way you interpret the MB principals in most situations

however, you have the right to give your opinion

however, on this thread i kindly explained to you my reason for starting this thread.

it was my way of giving you the message that i was not going to debate this with you as it is not the purpose of my thread

yet you still continue to debate and argue your point. This is what i see that you do on others threads as well.

because i will not engage in debates with you any longer. i am choosing to put you on ignore.

you stated in the post i wrote about rude and argumentative posters that if you were asked not to post on someone's thread, you would respect that request

so i am asking you not to post on any thread that i start


(in fact, your posts to others are one of the reasons that i made that thread.

so i wasn't surprised that you found my "asking" people to stop arguing as "being rude"

i assumed the people who were doing it would get the message)

again, please stop posting on any thread that i start

of course i can't "force" anyone to do anything so i will put you on ignore and if you do continue to post, i will not in any way respond to anything that anyone else posts in response to you

in my opinion, the poster is asking if she should give up after 8 months of trying or stay together just for the children

my response simply is....8 months of trying after what she did with her 2 affairs and andother man's child, all of which her H has accepted.....
IS NOT enough time to realistically give IF the children are her concern as she did state.

and again, her words are clearly those of someone who sounds like a WS so i cannot accept her version of "he was always emotionally abusive" as fact

this is the reason why i made the post. to address THIS poster.

it may be different from something that i would post to someone else.


carnation,

perhaps you also need to read my purpose for making this it's own thread.


i have explained several times why i made this it's own thread and removed it from the context it was intended. perhaps there were other ways for me to save it it case i wanted to use it in the future but this was the only way that i came up with.

as i said, i choose to find a way to save this post FOR MYSELF in case it is a post that i would want to offer to someone in the future

it was so that i could save it for MY OWN future use. not because i wanted anyone else to think this message was to them

it was written for THIS person in THIS situation and has nothing to do with anyone else dealing with their choices for D

i cannot believe that you would think i am rubbing anyone's races in the reality of what can happen

in fact, my post, just below tigger's says this and states that i do understand, accept, and believe that D is something that does or must happen

anyone who reads this thread without skipping any of my posts can clearly see it's purpose and that it was ment ONLY for that pupose and it does not encompass my beleifs about D as a whole but only in reagard to this person's situation

so i can't see how it would offend anyone other that the perosn i posted it to

carnation, you have so insulted me that i am also putting you on ignore

what you said to me was completely unacceptable, untrue and very hurtful

don't bother posting to me again as i will not read your posts

Here, below, is what I posted to her on Saturday. So, can you tell me where I am telling her bad advice? Where am I pointing out just the negative? And, I'm not the only one who posted like this.



I don't want to take away from the actual purpose of Eav's thread, so this will be the last I will say on this specific matter.

Oh, tigger, I, in no way, was being specific about any poster to the FWS. I was just wondering why anyone would consider giving her advice to D, without any REAL information from her about what is good about her H, what attracted to him in the first place, without excuses as to how he TURNED OUT.

Looking at your sig line, I'd say you are a good person to post to the FWS, as you also have OC and have RECOVERED your M.

I guess I don't understand what would make you think I was specific about WHO I was posting about. BTW, no one specific. I just noticed that the FWS keeps asking the same questions about D. WE all are aware that D can have a profound effect on children, mostly, NOT ALL, negative effects.

I don't always agree with the advice given here, to others, or to myself, but I believe we all have a right to give it. My advice to everyone, in most cases, is stop making excuses for why you can't and figure out if and how you CAN...

I think it's bad form to come to Marriage BUILDERS and advise anyone to D, without a REAL SOLID try. I guess I just don't see that here. I would hate to think that this poster could be MY WH, getting advise to just give up on me; that to me is AWFUL, for myself and my child. Just bad form...

____________________________________________________________

This is what I was referring to, Eav.

Many, many posters here are trying desperately to do everything that they can think of to prevent a divorce. Your pointing out the bad effects of divorce on children, perhaps, only makes the posters feel worse.

I am sorry that you came from such a broken home and that you have issues with abandonment and rejection. As an adoptee myself, I too have these issues, which have resulted in bad choices. I would gladly welcome a discussion on this with you, but apparently am unable to do so.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what I anticipated would happen as a result of posting this. But, I felt that your words above needed addressing. Sorry to offend you.

Carnation

tigger,

i also suggested to MacB the same kind of things that you did. I suggested that she make a list of the things she loves or even likes about her H as a starting point.

silent

i also feel that this poster is looking FOR reasons to D instead of for reasons to keep working on her M.

that's what i beleive a marraige building site is for also. the encourage everyone to put everything they can into saving their marriage BEFORE they consider giving up.

WHY did she come to a marraige building website if not for that kind of advice?

indeed, there are times when it is advisable to D. But i haven't read anything in her posts that would make ME support that.

SHE asked about the affect D has on children but it doesn't seems to me that many of her reasons for considering D really have much to do with her children.

she seems to have moved on to make her own decision anyway.