When I married, I was committed to marriage no matter what. Sadly, I was marrying a person whom I considered to be the most caring person I had ever met. I never thought he would hurt me.

He did, over and over. I was so upset on our wedding night I considered sleeping in the car.

Over and over, I had tried to change my behavior as a way to manipulate him into changing his, and I have had a multitude of excuses for why he behaved badly. (It wasn't him. It was Sophia, for example. But mostly it was me. I was at fault, over and over.)

I do believe in the commitment to the permanence of marriage, but I no longer have the naive view that he would never hurt me and I no longer have the naive view that he is a puppet who will respond to my behavior in a predictable way. He has free will.

Dr. Harley discusses Plan B as a way to protect the self when the spouse is in an affair or being abusive and suggests that Plan B remain in force for up to two years.

I'm wondering if a willingness to separate isn't something that should be considered by everyone upon entering into a marriage -- that yes, I am committed for life to mutual care but I will separate from you if you are uncaring towards me. A willingness to separate shows a commitment to remain married while being intolerant of uncaring treatment. It shows an understanding that the other person has free will and can choose to be uncaring and there is just nothing that the person can do about the spouse's choice of behavior.

Cherishing

I separated from my WH about 9 months after Dday. After 5 months of his waivering back and forth between me and OW, I'd had enough, told him of my intentions and went ahead and moved into a new place with our three daughters. He never tried to stop me - in fact I think he was pleased that I'd help make up his mind.

For me it was the best thing. OW had been on the phone telling me she'd been in my bed and how pretty my girls were having seen their photos. She'd been hanging out by our house and it all just seemed so tainted.

After I moved, I only called my husband a handful of times. I got on with life without him and saw him only when he came to collect the girls at weekends. He hung out sometimes on a Sunday (ill health would otherwise have meant he didn't see the girls) but I'd usually go out or have other plans. My only stipulation during this time was that he kept the girls away from OW. In the end, they met her twice, right at the end of the A.

Nearly two years after I freed him from the restraints of marriage, he asked to come home. Paradise was not everything he had hoped for. It was very hard initially being back under one roof but we are slowly working things out. Separation was definitely the key to my happiness. I felt choked living with a man in an active A.

Interesting thought.

My $0.02 is that, in essence, we are too selfish to be able to express this kind of love in marraige.

I think Dr.Dobson realizes this in Love Must be Tough when, I believe, he states that if you are a doormat, etc you can leave your spouse for the good of the marraige. It is commanded to stay with spouse except in adultery, but not a requirement to live with them.

Good question, Cherished. My sons' dad and I took the regular vows, but then promised each other, from the start that we would always stay together. We repeated that promise daily in our prayers. It always made me feel so secure and happy.

I ended up leaving him. He turned into an alcoholic after a heart attack, and I mean a RAGING alcoholic. The cops were at our home about once a week (called by the neighbors about him).

Maybe it would have been better to put a few conditions into the promise.

No conditions on the vow to be faithful and to cherish, only conditions on the willingness to live together. That's what I mean. It may seem like splitting hairs, but I can remain committed to my spouse even if his treatment of me is so bad that I separate from him for a time.

There's always the hope, as long as there's life, that he'll one day decide to be caring towards me, that he'll give up "Are you really that stupid?" as a way to discuss through a difference of opinion.

Cherishing

I know what you are saying. The last time I talked to boys' dad, before he died, he asked if I remembered the promise. Now it makes me feel bad. But I don't see any way that I could have stayed with such an abusive man. As it was, we were separated for 10 years before I divorced him. And I only did that because he kept getting DUI's and my insurance was cancelled because we were still married.

Every person has to make up there own mind how much they can tolerate.

Believer,

I chose, for our wedding, the reading about how you should "forebear with one another's faults". To me, the wedding vow meant that I should stay married no matter what. Looking back, now, I think that a vow like that is about as prudent as chiding but not disciplining a child. There are no consequences for bad behavior. It was only when my husband had an affair, after years of neglect and physical and verbal abuse, that I was willing to question that vow to stay married no matter what. He told me,during and after the affair, that I was uncommitted. In fact, my very first post on MB was just a few weeks before D-day, and I had chosen the name "uncommitted". It was a brief post, and I took responsibility for the problems that we were having because I was uncommitted: "I am not getting over it. He is definitely not seeing her again and is committed to not seeing her again, and I am stuck. I don't really want to be around him. We have four small children. What do I do?"

Commitment without care leaves a person vulnerable to abuse, infidelity, neglect, cruelty... That's why separation seems to me to be so key. I hope our children are willing to learn from us that they can care, they can be committed, and they can separate if care is not reciprocated.

Your story of being in Plan A has been very touching to me. There came a point where it was too late because you'd lost respect for your husband. It is sobering that separation helps to protect the person's willingness to care.

Cherishing

Hi Cherishing,

You responded to me in my time of need in the public forum even before I attended the MB Weekend and I've kinda been keeping up with your story (on the private forum--and did you know that Dr. H even mentioned your situation at the weekend? not by name, but by events), so you've been in my thoughts...and prayers. Truly you've been on my heart.

I feel the need to respond to you...please don't take offense, but as you know, my husband was also verbally cruel and insulting.....and I had just kept thinking plan A will turn it around. I was coming to the conclusion, though, that he was trying to sabotage any efforts made by me to better the marriage so that I would end up leaving him, so that he could say that he was left by his wife, rather than that he himself caused the destruction of the marriage by his adultery and destructive behavior. He would give little snippets of hope, like yours is, saying he wants you to be happy, calling you during the day, but his demeanor proved differently. He also told me that he wanted me to be happy, that I could do anything I wanted--get my master's degree, go shopping, the kids could go to private school, whatever....as long as I leave him alone and let him do his own thing. Believe it or not, I was tempted because it would mean the kids would be better off financially and I could further my education....and the kids would not be in a broken home.

However, plan A only works if there is no abuse and that's what your husband, and mine, were doing --are doing...abuse. It is NOT okay to treat a spouse in that way, pushing the limits and boundaries because they know they have a spouse who stands committed to them...no matter how they treat them. They are like children, in that they will push the limits until they are told to stop. And you need to tell him to stop.

I know that you are Catholic and are worried about divorce, but God is more worried about you and your children. I am a Christian and I too, thought marriage for life. Divorce, I had thought was not an option for me....but I came to realize the reason God allowed divorce for adultery...it is so destructive, it even causes personalities to change...it causes the once wonderful husband we married to turn into a selfish, self-seeking mean monster. It even causes them to become physically and emotionally abusive. I kept thinking 'I know that person I married is in there somewhere...if I just do the right thing...I can bring him back." ...but I can't...you can't. He is not the same person I or you married.

You don't deserve to be treated that way. God hates divorce, but he hates his children being mistreated more. Plus, separation doesn't necessarily have to mean divorce. I just filed the legal separation, and wouldn't you know, for the first time ever, he is acting remorseful. True, it could all be a rouse, but he has told the third party that recent events have been a 'wake-up call' for him. Dr. Harley has prescribed a very distinct plan for reconciliation (I am under a different screen name in private) and I am actually looking forward to it, rather than dreading it. This time apart, was very much needed, not only for him, but for me. I was losing more and more respect for him, and for myself, staying and being abused in the sense that he was continuing on treating me like dirt while I stayed loyal to him. This is NOT God's design for marriage. Sometimes, as Dr. Dobson puts it, "Love must be tough". This stand showed him that he might really lose his family, that he is accountable for his actions and it put the 'fear of God' in him. Sometimes, this separation is the 'wake-up call' that they need to get on the right path. The separation, if done correctly, should cause the marriage to become stronger instead of going toward divorce.

...and wasn't it you who just told another poster to enter into plan B? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is what you posted to someone in need:
"Show your daughter your dignity in the face of what your husband has done to you.

My husband was abusive and had an affair. He started attending anger management and he told me one of the guys there said that affairs are just another form of abuse.

What you should have done when he was abusive you now must do that he is actively in an affair. Plan B. It's up to him to decide to return to you.
Cherishing "

I think you should follow your own advice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Dr. Harley has also recommended that you enter Plan B...multiple times...and has said that anyone reading your posts will leave with a sense of sadness being that you are with a man enjoys watching you suffer and doesn't want you to be happy.

By your posts, it is clear that you have a lot of wisdom and desire to do the right thing. It is clear you have a wonderful heart, don't let it go to waste on a man that doesn't care. He can care again, but you have to make a stand. You are clearly a woman after God's heart, now allow God to take control.

Again, I hope you are not offended. I know the struggles, I feel like our situations are similar...of course, different as well, as no two situations are exactly alike, but close enough where I can feel your pain and frustration. I am pleading with you to enter plan B....it is such a relief...truly. I had feared it tremendously, but now I thank God that he initiated it for me.

Plan B right now has given me a sense of peace. I no longer have to worry about whether or not my H was still seeing OW or if my H would get annoyed and be mean to me or the kids that day. I don't have a job, I don't even have plans to obtain a job yet (working with attorneys--will most likely have to in the near future), but I have full faith and trust in God that I am doing the right thing. I have told the kids that their daddy made a lot of bad choices and he was treating us poorly--they knew he was acting poorly lately and they had already been on edge due to his insults. I told them that God didn't really like that his children were being treated badly, and that God's going to be working on him for a while.

The plus for me was that it was my H's actions that caused him to separate from us. He was the one that acted poorly in front of 20+ witnesses, so that someone else called the police and the police had to file charges due to the number of witnesses. I did file the TRO--partly because when I came home I saw that he had destroyed family photos, another sign to me that he didn't value his family, and partly because I knew that I might cave if he had a chance to influence me. Your husband has already told you 'Then get a divorce' and he has broken your arm. He has hardly any respect for you and is only giving you enough 'tokens' to keep you at bay. He doesn't necessarily want a divorce, but he doesn't want to put any effort into your marriage. Mine left me with bruises and scratches, yours broke your arm. We can make excuses, but call it like it is...it is abuse. Do not stand for this. God will take care of you. Do not be afraid to follow God's will.

I feel at peace and have a sense of purpose and hope now ...don't get me wrong, I was totally terrified the first couple days and even contemplated delaying the filing of the legal separation, but I don't think I did the wrong thing. I know I didn't. God has fully taken care of me this last week and I'm sure he will in the future. I am actually looking forward to the future now, knowing that God is in control. I have faith that God that there will be a mighty testimony in the end. (I know that I have learned a lot and God has been working on me as well)

...and my kids will know that it is NOT okay to treat your spouse with disrespect, and I will be breaking the generational sin of adultery.


Take charge, Cherishing, follow Dr. Harley's advice and do Plan B. God will be with you, He loves you and doesn't want his children to be treated poorly, He has a plan, He will take care of you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DesireWisdom,
I have to be at our children's elementary school in 20 minutes to volunteer, but I wanted to thank you for responding on my thread. Sometimes it is easier to see the choices that are appropriate in other people's situations when they are not so clear in your own.

Looking back now five years, I see clearly that I made a choice on January 3, 2002, which was devastating. I told the OW that he had broken my arm and I needed three surgeries for it, and then I told him that I had told her. He came home from work, livid. I sat on the basement steps and cried and said, "I want you to care about me more than Sophia." His response was, "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd have been long gone."

I considered separation. It was 2 weeks after the broken arm. I still had a catheter in from major pelvic floor surgery (including a hysterectomy) which had occurred less than 2 weeks before the broken arm.

What is odd is that I started to gain weight and noticed it within a few days. Now I weigh 50 pounds more than on that day. Isn't that incredible? Most people lose weight. I gained it. My body was in shock.

I'm reading between the lines, and I think you have some doubts about whether you did the right thing in filing for legal separation.

If you have any doubts, go back 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 years in my posts and see what I have tried and what hasn't worked, over and over and over again. If I were to summarize my "lessons learned" in one sentence, that sentence would be: If you give up your dignity to save your marriage, you will lose both.

The Marriage Builders program has been very helpful for me. I was focused on what my husband needed to learn and did really understand that I had a lot to learn. There was a poster on MB by the name of lemonman who specialized in pointing out what I came to think of as BS fog -- BS fog being thinking like "If I do this, then he will do this...", "It's my fault he had an affair", "I can get my husband to treat me better...". If you are up at 2 in the morning, try reading his threads, too. He left his wife. He was done.

I'm not done. I'll never be. To me, the question isn't whether I will be spiritually divorced from this man. I won't be. He can file for divorce and get an annulment and he can even marry the OW and I'll still consider myself married to him until one of us dies. To me, the question is whether we stay living in the same household.

His stated definition of care is that I should support him in what makes him happy, and he'll support me in what makes me happy. By that definition, I should have been thrilled with an affair because it made him happy.

I'd be curious to know what Dr. Harley had to say about our situation.

Cherishing

Hi Cherishing,
(Sorry...i haven't been able to log on as often lately...)

I love your lesson learned,

Absolutely true.

Regarding doubts...Yeah, emotionally I have had some doubts, but I know I did the right thing in filing the restraining order and legal separation. I kept wondering if my H was going to take these actions as aggressive and become defensive. I was wondering if I was hindering the recovery, but i know that the ball is in his court now--it is his actions that will prove his sincerity in reconciling. Emotions, I know are not always truth, they can waver and be affected by hormones and such, so I have come to realize not to base any decisions on emotions. This has allowed me to deepen my relationship and dependence on God and his ultimate plan for my life, so that is a huge blessing. I know that even if we don't reconcile, I will be taken care of. Scary, still emotionally upset at times, but I take note that I am in His care.

The retreat... Dr. Harley spoke of how physical abuse and infidelity are not to be tolerated. He spoke of a couple whom he was counseling in which both had occurred and how the H had even broken the W's arm. He said how the W said that the infidelity was actually so much more painful than the broken arm--he was making a point as to how painful and devastating adultery is. He never mentioned names or specific circumstances...I just kinda figured out it was you because of your prior posts.

Wishing you God's best,
DW

DesireWisdom,

I'm glad Dr. Harley can use our story as an example, since I have certainly used the Marriage Builders program to the maximum -- I have posted more than 100 emails and possibly as many as 200 emails to him. The infidelity was, in fact, so painful that the broken arm didn't even register -- and I went through 15 months of medical treatment and 3 surgeries for it because it turned out that with one punch he had broken one of the bones in my forearm into seven pieces. It makes a good story about how bad an affair is on a person, but that's about all it does. I feel no anger, no resentment, no bitterness towards him for the broken arm because I was so overwhelmed by the affair. When, on the night the affair was exposed, I told my parents of the broken arm from four months previously as well as the affair, they were totally nonplussed about the affair -- who cares -- it only means he has weak character -- I'd encourage you to get over an affair -- BUT their reaction to the broken arm was very strong. They couldn't believe he broke my arm, that he'd been abusive throughout our marriage... I showed my brother the lump in my forehead and the scars from the arm surgeries, and he still didn't believe it. It took my sister to convince him. It just seemed so out of character. He seemed like the nicest guy, and he was -- except to me and sometimes the children. That was part of the reason why I took the blame for the abuse -- but never the affair.

The reason why I am telling you this is that your parents seem to think that you should just shrug off an affair. That can really hurt. Your dignity has been shredded by this man, and your own parents are telling you to let it go for the sake of your children. The best gift you can give your children is to demonstrate to them what it means to be respectful of yourself and others.

Anyway, it can be natural to doubt whether Plan B is wise. I have come to think of it as BS fog as opposed to WS fog. If you are in Plan B, then you have removed yourself from your spouse. Your spouse doesn't know what you are doing, so you are not influencing him. I think that the reasons why Plan B is such a good idea is that you, as the BS, need to realize that absolutely nothing you did or did not do justifies infidelity. There may be justifications for divorce, but there are never justifications for infidelity.

It can be hard. I can appreciate that you have young children and your husband is willing to live with you so long as you don't interfere with his choices. That is a devils's bargain. You see the good in having your children raised with a father in the house, but you also see that both you and the children will have a lot of difficulty without him. It can be tempting to think that just a little more time in Plan A could turn the situation around, that all you have to do is find that magic something that will have him see the light. I have come to realize I cannot convince him, I cannot control him, and I cannot coerce him. Plan B makes it clear that "the ball is in his court."

I think our stories are similar in that the infidelity comes from the same root cause, which is the utter lack of care for the spouse. That's why both our husbands resorted to physical abuse because we were interfering with their affairs. His affair, and my husband's affair, aren't the result alone of an ignorance of how easy it is to fall in love with someone else under certain circumstances. The affairs are just the tip of the iceburg of complete diregard for our feelings.

Here is something you wrote earlier in the thread: " He also told me that he wanted me to be happy, that I could do anything I wanted--get my master's degree, go shopping, the kids could go to private school, whatever....as long as I leave him alone and let him do his own thing. Believe it or not, I was tempted because it would mean the kids would be better off financially and I could further my education....and the kids would not be in a broken home."

What I see in both our marriages is our husband's belief that, as my husband put it once, "I'm an adult, and I can make my own decisions." There is no care. There is only the desire to make you happy to the extent that you will allow him to do what he wants -- and, as we both found out with their affairs, there is a limit. The limit is offensive to them.

If your husband walks away, let him. That's my advice. Don't chase him. I remember figuring out when I was single that any man who needs to be chased isn't worth catching. That may seem sexist, but that's what I came to believe. In the last few years, I've come to the same belief about a husband and father. If I have to chase him, if I have to plead with him to spend time with me, if I have to tell him about my day through yawns because he hasn't asked and he's not interested in me, then I need to let him go.

Cherishing

Cherishing,

Amazing how the family is the last one to want to see the truth...perhaps in part they really just want to think the best of a person and don't want to see their faults, so anytime some fault is pointed out, they want to blame the person pointing out the fault. Kinda like how my BIL was saying that his father 'attacking' (his word) his mother was partly her fault for provoking him. Funny, it was the same excuse my H gave me when he wrestled me to the ground with his knee on my back trying to get an item of clothing from me that she (OW) had given him. He wouldn't apologize even after I showed him the bruises he left, he kept saying I shouldn't have provoked him, that I shouldn't have 'stolen' from him. He only finally apologized a week later when he realized I wasn't going to let it go without an apology. But this is where, as you said, he really didn't mean it.



My H wasn't really sorry, he was simply giving me enough 'happiness' so that he wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. My H said the same type of things--that he just wants to be able to do whatever he wants. He even said he cared first and foremost about his own happiness, and did not see any problem in that thinking. He did not understand the meaning of 'care'.


Very well stated.

My eyes are slowly opening to lack of respect and physical abuse. Even after the first couple incidents, I made excuses. I kept saying that it was only because of the adultery and that it wasn't really 'abuse'...even one of my friends who had gone through adultery told me it's part and parcel with the affair. I told myself that he wouldn't really do it again when the affair is over...but having an affair is not an excuse. As you said, it was the lack of care...and lack of control over me. Looking back, it is true that it was progressively getting worse. This last time he physically assaulted me in a church parking lot with over 20 witnesses...what's to keep him from doing more in the privacy of our home.

As I said before, when I came home, I saw he had smashed family collage photo frames, 2 large 2' x 5' frames. I shudder to think with what force he had to hit them for them to shatter....and the point of impact was right in the center of a photo of the children. This was in fact what ultimately made me decide to file the order of protection. I saw proof that he didn't care about our family. Funny, it wasn't the physically incident toward me...I guess maybe I thought, like you had thought, that I deserved it, or that I could handle it. I could 'sacrifice' my happiness if it meant happiness for my children....but I realized that when he smashed those photos...that those photos did not instigate anything...they did not provoke him...they only reminded him that he had a family...and he made it clear that he didn't want that.

Everyone responded with alarm regarding the physical part, and at first I kept wondering if everyone was over-reacting. Even when one of the pastors at the church said he hadn't realize that my H had hit me until after he heard the witness' statement, I said he didn't hit me, he only grabbed me. I down-played the incident. Physical abuse has been a part of my family's history and my H's history...along with infidelity...and in truth, I guess I partly did believe the W instigated it....both my mother and my MIL aren't really 'quiet' people and they are constantly voicing their opinions. I had made it a point in my life, not to often voice my dissatisfaction with something, for this reason. I was so careful not to be abused, that I became compliant.

I had a friend a couple years ago who left for a woman's shelter because her husband left her with black eyes, bruises, kept her from using the Internet, from having friends, from having her own money, even from having his last name because she her lineage was 'not good enough'....she was the extreme, but she was also timid, reclusive and clearly enabled her husband.

I guess in my mind I had perceived those who were 'abused' as either weak or provoking. I didn't want to be either. I had honestly believed I could be 'different' even though my past issues were never addressed. I was ignorant to think that I could be different without realizing how the abuse occurred in the first place. My husband as well. We were on the road to repeating history and we didn't even realize it.

You are right, the ball is in his court. If he wants his family back, he needs to be the one to start the reconciliation process. The burden of proof is on him. He needs to prove his sincerity. If he is indeed sincere, time will reveal his heart. I will not rush things. True, for the sake of my children and for myself I want a husband and father...but right now, that is not the man I am married to. I will allow God to deal with this man and hopefully this man will desire to be a husband and father, but if not, I will let go.

C, forgive me, but when is your plan to file your separation?

Blessings,
DW

DesireWisdom,

I don't want to say much about my situation as I am not separated and my husband reads the forum at least on occasion. What I wanted to do was assure you that you had a choice and the choice is what is best for you and for your children. When my husband broke my arm, I hid it, telling others that the arm was broken because I fell. I told no one about his bringing up this woman from work. By my actions, I enabled his selfish, criminal behavior. As my mother said when she found out what was going on, on the day the affair was exposed: "This isn't Pakistan."

I had a lot to learn, and I'm still learning. The month before the affair was exposed, I told my husband that I wanted to find a new therapist. He recommended OW's therapist (can you believe how blind I was, to think he was recovering from an EA that had ended six months before?). I ended up getting a referral from OW's therapist, but what my husband said to me at the time was this: "I'm afraid that, if you ever straighten yourself out, you'll boot me out."

It's taken a lot for me to understand that a willingness to separate is a key to marital happiness. That doesn't mean I'm planning on separation, but I am preparing for it.

With you, already separated from a husband who was abusive to prevent you from interfering with an affair, stand WAY back. I wouldn't put conditions on reconciliation. I'd ask him what he would propose. Does he think that he's going to move back in and tell you that you're the problem because you don't trust him? Is he going to propose that he go to anger management?

Of all of Harley's books, the one I got the most out of was Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. If you have a chance, see if you can get the book. And good luck.

Cherishing