You said this to me:



I see this as a PERSONAL ATTACK on me since you directly used my name and spoke about aspects of my life and my H that you ASSUME that you know a lot about.

I spoke to Steve Harley when I was devastated, when I did not know if I could live through another day. He and folks here were my lifeline and you are BELITTLING that.

Because of my H's affair, we lost almost EVERYTHING. I sold my DREAM HOUSE. I continue to this day to pay the credit card bill that I used to pay for my sessions with Steve Harley. What I dont't like is your assumption that MY FINANCIAL STATUS ..which you actually KNOW NOTHING ABOUT..makes the WOUNDEDNESS that I had to suffer through any LESS DEEP. How horrible of you to make that assumption..Then there are those who might want to borrow, beg or even get a new credit card to pay for sessions with Steve Harley..because that would be THEIR CHOICE in life...

I don't wish for anything that is said here to keep someone from making that choice if they choose to do so...

I just want to say that I have EVERY RIGHT TO SPEAK TO ANYONE HERE ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE without being PERSONALLY ATTACKED. I feel that it is so WRONG and UNFAIR for you to do that....

I HAVE NEVER EVER ONCE SAID THAT I THINK ANYONE IS DOOMED if they do not counsel with the Harleys...

But, on the other hand, I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO BE DISCOURAGED FROM DOING SO without a first hand account from someone like me who has had that WONDERFUL, LIFE-CHANGING EXPERIENCE...

Just like I would not say DON'T GO TO NIAGARA FALLS OR THE GRAND CANYON BECAUSE YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT...

I still am SAD for Sis..this is MY TRUTH..you don't have to agree with it or understand it..I am honest enough to say HOW I FEEL...

I would be sad for her if she had cancer and decided not to go to a CANCER SPECIALIST....that does not mean that I feel that she is DOOMED..but I still would feel that she is not getting the BEST TREATMENT...MY OPINION..BASED ON WHO I AM AND MY LIFE EXPERIENCE...

Mimi, you are perpetuating an environment that basically says "if you disagree with someone you are personally attacking them." I have read Together Alones post ten times and can't see what you are so worked up about. The insult that you are claiming is just no present in the post...and certainly not to the extent that you are stating.
I have to tell you that I believe you to be someone that can work wonders for people...but cross you and you become a martyr. I have seen it in my dealings with you at times and have also witnessed it with you with others.
It distracts from the obviously great advice that you have to give others, IMO. Your latest post on Lilsis thread is more evidence of this. It is really a shame since you have so much to teach others.

The part about my H being a businessman, allowing me to be able to counsel with Steve Harley..

It had nothing to do with my ability to pay!!!

And I don't agree that I'm a martyr..

I want to make that known, too.

Mimi ... interesting topic...

In my work, we use cognitive-behavioral techniques to help people get out of their own way ... it's not so much about ~~ F E E L I N G S ~~

and getting to the root of those ~~ F E E L I N G S ~~

(which takes years ... meanwhile the same old chit is going on in the person's life)

it is about CORRECTING thinking errors that are not working

and RE-DIRECTING behaviors in ways that are more effective to reach a person's stated goal

in my profession, we teach these skills to lessen physical pain ... is this effective ? .... YES it is!

It is not the only tool we use (think tons of pharmacology interventions as well) ... but the GOAL is to use less and less pharmacology as the patient's cognitive-behavioral skills accelerate their return to wellness

this is such an important topic Mimi, and I, for one, am glad you mentioned it.

As my friend recently told me: "You can stand around discussing how the [censored] got into the ditch in the first place, but, at the end of the day, you still have to figure a way to get him out."

Pep

Mimi ... you are no martyr ( a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death, is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions) ...

you are [color:"red"] PASSIONATE [/color] .... and you are [color:"red"] VOCAL[/color]

and you are a [color:"red"] FIGHTER [/color] for what you believe

good woman !

Pep

[color:"red"] BrambleRose said:[/color]

[color:"blue"] Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything. [/color]

I have found that when folks dwell a very long time in the world of the "why" ... it is usually a sign they are not ready to make a personal change ... they are invested in the status quo ....

Pep

Pep, you are right that is one definition of martyr. There are several.
Mimi is a good woman...is vocal and passionate...two things I greatly admire in a person.

Mimi

Whatever your financial status, your post to LS made clear that you considered it very disappointing that she wasn't doing as you advised and consulting SH. Your post made no allowance for the fact of her financial ability to do so, and LS has already posted about having to conserve her resources and plan any SH consultation with care. How do you think she might feel about your latest admonition?

Maxing out a credit card in order to continue sessions with SH was your choice, and clearly you considered it worth the pain. But the fact that you were able to put many (and if you're still paying it off, I assume it was more than a couple?) sessions on your card means that you had the credit limit to do so. Unless credit works differently in the US, credit limits are linked to income, and a modest earner is usually offered a modest limit. For many people, the option to max out a card on SH is simply not available.

You have already described your H as a 'successful businessman' and an excellent salesman on other threads. Your joint income was clearly high enough to enable you to have the credit to pay for many expensive therapy sessions. To fail to take into account the financial disparity that may exist between you and another poster when offering advice that will cost a lot of money seems a little careless, wouldn't you agree?

I'm quite sure you have the best of intentions. But holding good intentions does not automatically negate any harm that we might do, nor should we take offence when our unintended damage is pointed out to us.

TA

Well, my 24 yr old college son has $10,000 worth of credit and doesn't even have a full time job, so I would be surprised if LS doesn't have much more credit than that. Credit is very easy to come by in the US. A chimpanzee can get a credit card with high limits.

I fail to see how it was "unintended damage" for Mimi to recommend counseling. There IS no damage. On the other hand, there very well may be some "damage" if she doesn't get some professional guidance out of this tricky situation.

I don't think Mimi was out of line in the least for recommending she call SH. I think she would be remiss if she didn't, knowing that LS is at a critical juncture in her marriage. If the advice from SH could make all the difference at a such a critical time, then it would be well worth it. This was Mimi's experience, so she would be irresponsible to not share this valuable resource.

Were I in LS's shoes, and didn't have the money, I would be borrowing money from relatives, bank, etc. I have seen SH's advice make a difference and happen to think he is quite talented. I suspect it would be well worth the money.

Have you ever picked up a self help book that sounded GREAT, only to discover that the book only addressed the "WHY" and failed to offer a plan of action, a solution?

I have found that many people spend years in therapy discussing WHY because victimhood and self-will suits them...

TogetherAlone ~ last time I checked, DIVORCE results in destroyed credit and far more financial cost and HARM than a few sessions with Steve Harley.

BR:

Well Said.



In regards to the fees charged by the Harleys?

How much did it cost you to log in here?

If SH/JC/WH, etc want to charge $500 an hour, they will get it. Cuz it is good. And you get what you pay for.

Your Insurance? Pay the 20% opt out fee, and ask for reimbursement.

Dr Phil is cheap too. And you get what you pay for.

There's a reason that HNHN and SAA have sold millions of copies. Because it makes sense.

And many, many people are helped by this site for free. There is more free information available on this site then anywhere else on the internet.

And ALL Aimed at saving marriages....

Writing a slightly higher check to support this is ok by me.

BTW: I have written the check, also...

a working definition of Woody Allen, by the way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

AMEN!

Brief Solutions Focused Therapy comes to mind. It is the only therapy I am interested in anymore. I can't tell you the number of times I walked out of a therapists office because all they wanted to talk about was my parents, and my past. And then after bringing up all that chit from the past, that can't be changed, that can't be defended by the departed parties, the memories that bring only pain...

All the therapists can say is "well how does that make you feel?"

Well gee wiz, I don't know...let me see

Oh yeah, like CHIT!

Yes, that is helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Yes she is!



Change your mind, change your life. I believe very strongly that the mind can heal as well as it can harm. Both based on our thought system...faulty or correct.

It is fascinating, the changing of thought patterns. ACIM describes a miracle as simply a change in perception.

So simple and yet so hard.

Marriage Builders is solution based therapy. It leaves much of the past in the PAST and focuses on the problems that may have come up DUE to the past. I was actually told, by Jennifer, to not focus on the past at all, especially in early recovery. It serves no purpose. She told me to focus on the problems that we have incurred DUE to the past, but to leave many of the wrongs and situations there, FOR NOW.

I would rather pay the NOW $470 to begin to have a REAL focus and a REAL plan, a plan that has proved VERY HELPFUL in recovering many a marriage after infidelity. Generally, IC does not deal with the marriage, not really. I think IC is great for the INDIVIDUAL, but it can actually harm attempts at recovery, depending on the counselor. I have examples of some of my friends going to IC, and their couselor telling them to DO WHAT MAKES THEM HAPPY, at the expense of all others. That really doesn't work in a marriage.

In LilSis' case, I believe that she did state that she WOULD be seeking SH's advice, just not right this minute. She was saving her duckets for a more appropriate time, when she is READY to move to a new PLAN.

Absolutely!

To assume a poster's financial circumstances and ability to pay is either arrogant or naive.

A proportion of MB posters in the US will not have well-paid jobs or insurance. I remain to be convinced that a person with poor education and indifferent prospects would be offered high credit. Even if they were, or could scrape together the money from other sources, what pressure would they be under to pay it back, from a low income base? Would this make their recovery easier or harder?

Couples dependent on a lowish-income, public-service job seem unlikely to have the kind of insurance that covers MB - would that be right? Savings may be small. There may be other long-term debt burdens where more affluent families would have been able to pay up front. What I'm saying is that we can't ASSUME that there is enough financial slack to pay for very expensive therapy, even where the need is understood.

Outside the US, insurance of the US type is rare, and is most unlikely to cover a US therapist even where it does exist. Posters in poor financial circumstances - in the UK at least - do not have access to high credit limits or bank loans.

And where is it written that the only way to recover a marriage is to talk to SH on a regular basis? Many posters on MB have recovered their marriages without ever talking to a Harley. Some who have spent the money have not recovered their marriages. SH's or JC's involvement arguably makes it more likely that the marriage will survive, but there is certainly no guarantee. So the cost/benefit advantage of making a huge financial sacrifice to talk to a Harley is far from clear.

The cost of a divorce is high, and of course it makes economic sense to invest in marital recovery counselling instead. But where does that translate into 'it must be SH and hang the expense'? There are other therapists, many of them on-board with MB...but much cheaper. The Harleys are a luxury service, but there are other possibilities, you know?

Willard Harley's books are an excellent platform for many people who could not afford an hour with Steve. Willard Harley's books plus a regular session with a good, pro-marriage therapist - at a fifth of the cost - plus MB forum support, is how many people here have recovered both themselves and their marriages. It is entirely possible to save a marriage without a Harley's personal input.

In my personal experience, there were many times when my IC (whose modest fees I could just about scrape together) was the most valuable thing in my life - because there were areas where my own growth was the most important contribution to the marriage. My IC helped me to hold myself together through a nightmare Plan A, NC violations, and ultimately Plan B. Even if we'd 'recovered' the marriage without her, it would not have been a healthy recovery because I would have learned nothing about boundaries, self-respect and standing firm in the face of attack. If LilSis feels that her money is better spent on building herself into someone who CAN go into a Plan B - and that is a task for IC rather than Steve - then that seems an eminently sensible decision to me.

TA