I wish you could see my H's look of AMAZEMENT when I SAY OUT LOUD to him now.."I'M WRONG..."

and early on during PLAN A, I began saying OUT LOUD to him.."I WAS WRONG"...

Learning to use that EXACT WORD.."WRONG"..from STEVE HARLEY'S ADVICE..I still say Steve is a GENIUS...


Thanks, Pep..for helping me to CLARIFY this for myself..what my ITCH has been about SIS...

Hope you are listening, Sis...

Leave me alone, MEDC.

I'm trying to HELP, Sis and hopefully she will listen because she and I face the same issues.

I have no need to beat up on her, MEDC.

"How can I help her without talking about my marriage?"

How about looking at some of the other vets that have recovered their marriages that seem to be able to accomplish this task without the me, me, me, me attitude. Just a thought.

absolutely right with the "stop being right" part. boy, is that a hard one to learn. i felt always right because i was not the out there sleeping with half the town and breaking up marriages, my ex was. boy, there is me, walking around all self righteous. i still catch myself doing it at times.

lil sis, i have SO been in your shoes. had to be right all the time. i have been a real "B" sometimes just make my ex tow the line, follow word for word something that was said or is in our agreement. i am slowly learning to soften on this. life is so much easier when i can bend a little.

it is hard to do because we have been betrayed. trust me, my ex is famous for "i give him an inch and he takes 10 miles" or uses my flexibility against me. so i am leary to give in too much. but as long as my kids are not harmed, as long as their interests are at stake, and as long as anything i am doing or giving him is not going to bite me in the butt, i can be softer. (for example, one thing i will NOT budge on is giving him extra time with the kids. he gets what he is allotted in our agreement and nothing more. ONLY because he tried to take the kids from me, petitioned the courts and everything! what a nightmare that was. on the advice of my attorney i am not to give him any more time that he gets as i am sure ex is sitting at her house talleying up the time he gets just waiting to take me back to court and say "hey, i had kids 49.9% of the time and she only had 49.1% or whatever, i want to pay less child support now, or i want to have custody now. he is underhanded like that and in THAT way i cannot be flexible, but in other ways i can. see what i mean?)

when you have a custody agreement it will be in writing exactly when you have them and he has them right down to holidays and vacations. let this one go and then be ready to be as specific as possible in that agreement. mine is about as specific as it can get.

mlhb

I deserve the 2x4s.

I thought I was clear yesterday that I was giving up on the week...Bramble Rose and others made excellent points that resonated with me. Others here advocated a harder line: stick to my guns and insist upon that week; let him deal with the consequences.

My call to MIL about the other available week was an IMPULSIVE decison...I was preparing to leave and didn't have much time, and thought I had an "a-ha" moment. I recognize NOW that it was wrong.

My INTENT was to find a way to both allow WH to have a week with the boys at the cottage, while STILL respecting my "claim" on that particular week.

Many people here were saying that the "August is mine as per our agreement" response was the right one. That's a very hard line approach....most certainly it is a "I'M ALWAYS RIGHT; MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" approach. Pretty self-righteous. I was uncomfortable with that, and thought for a MOMENT that I could get to a middle ground.

I'm going to get hammered for this one, but:

Some here WERE advocating the hard line approach. NOW I'm being called out for being too self-righteous.

My impression....am I misinterpreting????

What I did was stupid. I'm admitting that and would like help to recover from the mistakes that I have made.

I'm really sorry that my self-righteousness is offensive to many of you. And yep, I am trying to hang on to whatever scraps of control that I have left after the rug was pulled out from under me and everything fell apart...I recognize that as well, NOW, with some perspective and self-reflection.

It's motivated by fear. I'm sure you can all relate to THAT emotion, if not the need to control.

I'm trying.

LS,

Obviously, this whole cottage thing is about way more than control. It all ties into your grief about your dad and how your WH betrayed you. It's a symbol of a lot of pain and I think that's why you're having so much trouble letting go.

The one thing that MB has taught me is self-control. I'm emotional and impulsive. I've learned to keep my mouth shut (at least most of the time), when I'm too emotional to deal with an issue and wait it out. I've leaned not to have certain discussions when I feel the urge, and instead try to wait until the right moment. The mistake you made was calling MIL when you hadn't thought it through, when you were thinking of visiting your dad's grave. This whole cottage issue has obviously opened some big wounds for you.

The only way for you to get past your WH may be to accept that he's gone and accept that he's going to be with RT. After all, he's going to have to be the one with a change of heart who is willing to do what's necessary to get you back if that time comes. In the meantime, I'd just start my life over, figuring he's gone for good. If you can reach that point, then it won't hurt as much.

I'm sorry you're having such a bad weekend. It's time to regroup and go forward. I have confidence that you will.

It's not about what you need to do to please US?

How do YOU want to CHANGE?

What do YOU think that YOU need to do differently?

Do YOU feel that being SELF-RIGHTEOUS is GOOD and APPROPRIATE in your interactions with LOVED ONES?

If anyone is interested:

LK to WH:

LS regrets that she failed to inform you in a more timely manner about the trip to DC. Plans didn't firm up until the last minute, and since it only interfered with one afternoon that you would have had with the boys, she failed to make communicating with you a top priority.

Enjoy the week at the cottage with the boys.



edited for typo

It's motivated by fear. I'm sure you can all relate to THAT emotion, if not the need to control.

Control all you want...just make sure that it is YOU that you are controlling.

You have ZERO control over him.
You are ZERO control over his mother.

You have 100 percent control over you.

Start doing it.

committed

A couple of disjointed thoughts...

About parenting and MIL...I see a lot of parents who view their children as extensions of themselves and even validation of their choices.

Tell a parent who is invested in this way that their children are doing HORRIBLE APPALLING WICKED things to someone and they will BALK because no matter their sympathy for the victim...they have MORE SYMPATHY for themselves. When they defend WS they are defending themselves.

I look at my children and see the potential vulnerable areas that seem to be inherent in their unique characters.

This one is a little selfish...that one impulsive...that one wallows in self pity..etc etc etc.

It's no mirror to the future but a foreboding in my mind clanging like a bell...I think...someday I might have to make this choice myself..even after all I have been through...all the ways I have tried to spackle and bolster the weak areas.

They will do what they will do and we will all reap the consequences.

It IS too much to ask an unbeliever LS. It's too much to ask and if I believed you wouldn't HAVE to ask.

No one has to convince me that addiction is BAD for my child...and if I chose not to believe it no one COULD convince me.

Do I believe that his affair has anything whatsoever to do with you? No I don't. I really really don't. I think it is his own collection of issues colliding with your life badly.

Yet this does not redeem your own bad choices, impulsive bents, or issues at all either does it?

You are DRAWN to the drama like he is drawn to waywardness..there is rebellion there..and immaturity.

Something that just won't quite cooperate with choices that actually PROTECT you because they are so UNGRATIFYING.

It is ungratifying to choose not to engage your mil..a potential source of sympathy, consolation, and validation...in conversations that require more intimacy and loyalty than actually exists to support them.

It is difficult to choose to recognise that her seeming agreement may be nothing more than conflict avoidance.

Yet what happens when you go down that road...the one that beckons with gilded rewards?

Strife?

Over reliance on a flawed structure?

Burning bridges you meant to maintain?

What happens instead when you say this is miserable..the waiting and lack of action..it is boring and excruciating and I don't want to stay here! I don't want to..I want to DO SOMETHING to rock the boat. I want to flip the boat over..I want to shake the heavens and for a minute it seems to be ok...we can't see all ends.

Who could have known that a drive past OW'S house might a year or more later result in a damaged bid for custody?

What is the wandersome duo doing that you aren't doing?

They are playing the game to make other people comfortable with their own cowardice and selfishness.

I'm not suggesting that you do the same...I'm saying be wise and aware that this particular demon is very sophisticated in the ways of man...if you go in you better not go empty handed in a swell of emotion or you will lose and lose badly.

He, too, is trying to hang onto control.

It isn't a one-way street.

I didn't realize he took the boys alone to the cottage last year. That changes things.

He may need that time this year. To clear his head, to make new traditions with them, whatever it is. To make last year, when he was so wrong, "go away"...even though he remains wrong still today. To reclaim the place - does this make sense to you? To make his own memories of it be okay. You see, he tarnished his own memories of it, too, with what he has done. Those memories with the boys, he wants them to be okay. He needs to clean them up.

This is perhaps his motivation - whether conscious or unconscious.

And we don't know if RT is involved, or going, or if that's in the plans at all.

But, you could get the attorneys involved, or not. Maybe just between the two of you, with the intermediary, at least make an agreement that RT and kids would not go, in exchange for you agreeing that the boys could go that week....thinking out loud about ways to make this whole thing "work out" for everyone.

Sis,

Stay dark with the ILs as much as you can. No WH talk, no R talk to them. Protect your love for WH. That is what Plan B is about. Let RT try to meet his needs, let him see what living totally without you, what D really means. You need to work on yourself, protect yourself, recover your heart from this hurt as much as you can. The darkness protects you, too.

SB

i'm beginning to wonder if a more "neutral party" could be the go between... i am just a firm believer that it should be a mediator if at all possible. i have a bad feeling, given that your friend is not neutral, too much of "you" is coming through in her emails to him. not judging, just thinking a more neutral party might be in order at some point.

i feel for you, i really do. you made a mistake, and trust me i made many when my ex first left. you must brush off and move on. on this board you will always get some who are for one approach, some who are for another. i think maybe take a combo of the 2 and make a plan from there. the only difference betwen you and me in this sitch is that i did not want my ex back. i did not go to a plan b type stance because i wanted him back, i was just sick of dealing with him (and there was a restraining order in place against him for going nutso on me in front of the kids one night)

i know i for one would never bash here nor do i think any one here means to. we just care so much and want you to take a more peaceful path where you do not have to be so worked up all the time. my dealings with my ex at this point are pretty unemotional for the most part. he sends me his schedule, i do up the visitation as per our agreement based on his schedule, that is it. kids went to the dentist, i had them call him to tell him how it went. i call my ex on NOTHING. once in a great while we may exchange a text or an email but for the most part, unless there is something real dire about the kids, we don't communicate at all. it can go literally weeks or more without any communication between us at all. it is strictly business. the kids, thier schedule, that's it. i don't inquire about his life, i don't care. nothing.

do i sit and stew sometimes? sure i do. i get angry, i get resentful. he still tries to pull fast ones and sometimes he actually gets away with them. the hardest thing i deal with right now is that he lives with ow (don't care about that part) but that they get the luxury of 2 incomes and doing what ever they want and buying whatever they want and going anywhere because they have the money while i have to scrape every week. i am thankful to god that we have what we need but we have no extras. i can't just take my kids on a weekend away or go by stuff for them. that is what bothers me and where i am still learning to deal.

you will learn from mistakes, you will take one day at a time, you will get through this with or without your ex. some have their spouses back, some of us, like me, do not and are better off for it. but we all have made it through to the other side and you will to.

mlhb

((lilsis))

We've all made mistakes in this deeply painful and emotional journey. And I sooo understand how you feel. I too, am used to being able to solve the problems and issues that come my way. I would try to do/say things that I thought might change my XH from his choices.

What I had to do was realize that there was nothing I could do to make him change from the path he had chosen. There was no one I could talk to who would be able to "snap him out of it". Someone once described it to me as trying to clap with one hand. I was trying to do that, and all I was doing was creating a breeze.

So, I chose to stop trying to do what I could-which goes completely against my personality and my normal way of dealing with things. I would consciously stop my self from the inner conversations I was having-things I wanted to say to him. Once I realized I was thinking of things to do/say that I imagined would change him,I'd stop that and say "Johnstwin you can't do anything to change him. Don't waste your energy."

And then I turned those thoughts and emotions over to God in my journaling (three in one year). I got the words out. I looked at them on paper. And I let WH be God's prodigal, not mine. I still am even though he is now my XH.

I can look back and see how God used that change in my thinking to prepare me for the next thing my family and I faced.

I haven't stopped wanting to jump in and solve things 'cause that's me. But I am much more patient with myself. I can actually pause and ask God to help me think things through. As DS15 said when something didn't go his way "One of things I've learned from all this is to just be patient. Some things turn out to not be such a big deal."

A couple books that helped me were "When He Leaves" and "In Every Pew sits a Broken Heart."

I know you are trying. After you take some time to reflect please let yourself off this hook. (I know how hard that it to do as well... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Don't ever forget that you are dearly loved. John 3:16.

Your friend-JT

I'm trying to pull all of this together.

Learning and growth is a PROCESS...it doesn't happen all at once, and it doesn't come easy. I appreciate people pointing out issues that--from the outside--they can perceive better than I.

As to self-righteousness...I was NOT interested in pushing for the week at all costs. I wasn't going to go to the mat for it, but I didn't want to be a doormat, either. That was my dilemma, yesterday afternoon.

I made a GRAVE error in trying to manipulate some kind of middle ground.

Have I sounded self-righteous in ANY of my remarks about what I did yesterday?? Please point them out, because perhaps I don't even recognize it in myself.

Grownup: Those are the lessons I am trying to learn as well...not just "learn," but internalize and act upon at all times.

Knowing something to be true in my head does not always translate into action....not yet, as this is fairly new to me, and I've got a lot of other issues I'm working through as well...but I sincerely hope to get to where you are.

oh, and in the beginning i tried to control my ex too. especially because there was ow involved. it worked for a short while, me keeping kids away from him if she was around, etc... but essentially, once we signed an lsa, it was out of my hands. i could not stop him from bringing kids around ow or anything else. hard lesson to learn. my trying to control him (or maybe even punish him for the things he had done) only made my ex more mad and harder to work with and made things worse for me.

mlhb

LS --

I think your response will go a long way in deflating the hot air your WH was building up over the latest e-mails. I can hear his justifications, HIS self-righteous anger and indignation going FTTTTT! Because you've detached and quit feeding the monster. Good for you. NOW, relax, and continue letting go. It's hard to do, it's a process, but keep that momentum.

Shellybird

AMEN TO THIS!! Valuable advice...to get back to PLAN B!!!

Plan B also frees you to take a look at YOURSELF and to carry on with PERSONAL RECOVERY..

I've been trying to encourage that too..

Also..WSs will put you in a crappy position.

It works like this...they set things up so that EITHER you bend over and smile [play by their rules] OR you are unreasonable and a problem causer.

They KNOW no one likes a problem causer and they know that certain relevent bits of information ...like that this was their only vacation oportunity for example...combined with the OMISSION of other bits of information ...like that their schedualing is NOT so rigid as they have implied...more correctly they themselves set it up to be a conflict...information like this puts you in a lose/lose position.

You are feeling set up and I personally think your perception is correct.

A little lesson in passive agression no?

Seed planters and gaslighters are ..you know what they really are?

They are really hard to nail down.

Tricky little bastids.

That is why you have to be SO detached and SO clear on your goals and methods.

It is so easy to get stuck in the webs.

I have learned the following:

*I understand that MIL can never be my advocate; nor can I expect her to be my ally.

*I MUST not act impulsively, and be aware of when I am doing so (I had gotten better at doing this, BTW).

*I need to be very clear about my Plan B boundaries.

*I need to be more directive with LK about what she puts in her communications with WH. (I believe that some of WH's remarks were likely evoked by LK's commentary that she added to my two sentence response)

*Peace and patience.

*Focus on me and what I can control and what's best for the boys.

******

I think I was much more "there" than some of you give me credit for, but the interaction with MIL sucked me right back in. The week in DC, starting the new job...I was feeling like a "new me" and feeling happiness.

Unfortunately, I wasn't seeing MIL as a threat (unintentional on her part) to my secure, quiet Plan B buffer zone, so I let her in...and it is likely that unconsciously a part of me was WANTING that connection as a way to connect to WH.

Weakness. It's like breaking NC. Going through withdrawal, then having the opportunity to get a fix; back to square one. I just didn't realize that's what was happening.

I agree. IF he feels like he has won in some way...it will be bittersweet......but, that's nothing for you to concern yourself with.
mimi and others mentioned you talking to one of the Harley's about plan B....i think that is a great idea.
i want to call FOR YOU.
so i can give you better advice and keep my emotions at bay.

i think one of the Harleys would help you really understand plan B and how it benefits YOU.....no matter what happens to WH.