I agree

Do not ask your neighbors to tattle on him. They are right in not telling you - look at how you are triggered.

This crapola sets your progress in plan B waaaaaaaaaaaaay back.

Get back behind your boundaries.

__________________

this is exactly what i was thinking.
you can not expect neighbors to understand plan B abd to follow your rules. shrug it off.

My REaction last night was another bit of fallout from the A.

My trust in people is very, very fragile.

My neighbor has been encouraging me for a couple of weeks to just talk to WH. She thinks it's not healthy for the boys that I don't talk to him. She also said (after she read the email about the financial stuff), that it made sense: WH not wanting to air his dirty laundry to anyone, and out of respect I should have responded directly.

That's cr*ap, and I told her so...in a friendly way.

I've been putting her off, telling her I want to do things MY way, that not talking to WH is my safety zone. That I expect WH to go through LK. That any attempt to bypass LK will be turned back. I thought this would be sufficient...she's not really "involved" in my life; we talk a lot and she is so helpful with the boys, she shares her opinion and I take it as such.

It didn't occur to me that WH would try to breach Plan B through her. I sort of have the feeling that WH is prowling around my boundary, testing it for weak points so he can exploit them. Okay, now I'm sounding paranoid...must be PMS talking (it's fierce today).

So I did feel hurt...I felt (reactionary) as if she didn't respect my boundary because she doesn't agree with it; thinks she knows better. I will gain some perspective throughout the day, I know, and you are all right--she DID the right thing in fact--but I wish she would have just told me immediately, "LS, WH called and I told him so and so and we hung up. And BTW, he called Mr. Neighbor a couple of weeks ago, too, which I just found out about tonight."

It isn't so much about WHAT happened...it's me realizing that I am freaked out by the slightest thing...on guard for someone to stab me in the back...not trusting. (particularly because she doesn't seem to be very supportive of Plan B)

Maybe this isn't making sense. So please, filter it through the PMS lens, ladies.

MEDC (since you have no PMS lens): I'm still not sure what you expect me to DO. End Plan B? How can one END Plan B? You say he "needs to go?" Please explain to me how to do that. I am TRYING desperately to focus solely on me...which I could do in a totally dark Plan B. I wrote this last night:I just want the man to leave me alone. If he's going to be wayward, either short term or long term, I don't want him to interfere with my life.

I so wish I could articulate this better, MEDC. Focusing solely on me would be a heck of a lot easier if he would quit intruding on my life. Which I can't control, so I rely on my safety net to help keep him at bay.

mimi: I will go back and read the MM post. Internalizing what he says in there will probably help me feel less triggered by WH's attempts to breach.

BR and mimi: You are right...I don't (shouldn't?) CARE what WH says to the neighbors. My fear is based in part on not being sure that they understand my need to feel safe and secure from WH, because neighbor has been pushing me to end it...KWIM?

If I knew that they were totally on board with my Plan B, then I wouldn't worry about WH breaching it through them.

And keep in mind I'm PMSing.

And keep in mind that I had just SEEN RT a couple of hours earlier.

Vulnerable...reactionary...radar WAAAAY up.

Does that help? And I will have a conversation with neighbor today when we go get our plants....explaining why I reacted so strongly and apologizing, and hope she understands (having been a BS, I think she will).

What I need right now is for someone to say it makes sense, that today's a new day, that PMS will pass, and my reaction last night was at least somewhat understandable given the context...???

ok, one last post then i must go paint my bathroom!

i understand the feeling of "i just want him to leave me alone! why can't he just do that?"

lil sis, mine STILL won't leave me alone! mine can't stand that he has lost all control over me. he controlled for soooo long. And I never used to see my passiveness with him as his controlling me, but everyone around me could see it. and in hindsite, yes he did control so much. he did what he wanted when he wanted to do it. he had the best of both worlds. he could sleep here on the couch, have me struggling to salvage the marriage, making his lunches for work, keeping dinner warm for him, etc, and he could go out til all hours of the night, have his affairs, etc, and i just let him do it. i walked on eggshells, didn't want to rock the boat,etc.

well, when i finally made him leave 2 years ago, when i finally got an attorney and took control of my life and the lives of my children he didn't like it one bit. as i took him out of my life, as I CALLED THE SHOTS, he got more and more violently angry about it. i didn't have to talk to him if i didn't want to. didn't have to take his calls, nothing. i told him, you chose this, you live it, leave me alone.

long story short, he has lost his control over me and he doesn't like it. i think in many ow controls HIM now and he has no one to control so HE STILL TRIES TO CONTROL ME. she owns the house they live in, not him. she bought it and his name isn't on it. SHE co-signed so he could get a new truck, etc.. if it weren't for her paying a good chunk of the bills he would have nothing right now. so he is not going to rock that boat.

2 years out you would think ex and I could get along for the sake of the kids but we rarely do. he still tries to get digs in and control me. and i just don't let him. if he sends me an email that is nasty or not concerning the kids i just delete it with an email back to him letting him know i did NOT read it nor will i read anything that does not concern the kids. drives him nuts. if he calls and it gets ugly i tell him "when you can talk to me as an adult we will talk" and i hang up.

your h has lost control of you sis and he can't stand it. HE CAN'T STAND IT! he can't stand that you are standing on your own 2 feet and making it. the more you take his control away the more he is going to "not" leave you alone. these kind do NOT learn easily. Be prepared to be tough and firm. he is not going to let go of that control he wants over you that easily. mine still tries to do it.

mlhb

One more thing...and I don't quite know how to say it because I know that it is well-intentioned and I know you are trying to make a point.
Comments like this are actually FAR FAR more discouraging to me than any of the Lemon/MEDC talk from the other day. That talk had to do with a difference of opinion, which I can respect. The comment above feels sort of like a DJ.

My interpretation...I own it...I'm just being H&O.

Because it implies (to me) that I have lost forward progress, lost ground, that I may NOT make it because I am a screw-up. That screw-ups are unacceptable, that they will doom me in the end. I imagine folks out there shaking their heads and sighing. That LS, she's a goner.

Now, I don't need to be Miss Pefect, but I don't want to be Miss Loser, either.

This was the same kind of talk that really, really was unhelpful toward the end of my Plan A. Do you remember how ugly it got?

I don't intend to muzzle anyone, or shoo anyone away...I'm just attempting to articulate a response that I had to that remark.

All good?

oh, and pms??

this will look so much different when that darn pms is gone!!!! not a good time to get hit with all this stuff. i can relate, trust me.

mlhb

Sis, I'm not going to talk about your WH at all...

Listen to BR and Mimi about control. This will be one of your hardest lessons learned. THAT alone was why I had my EUREKA moment. It was the moment I truly realized I only control me; not even my kids, my dogs the daisies, nope just me.

Your neighbors did the right thing, right up until they told you that your WH called; that's what is supposed to happen. You can tell them to keep that info from you (unless WH is snooping around or IN the house), or to relay all info to LK. These people care very much for you, DO NOT alienate them for their misunderstandings of Plan B.
Also, stand up to this RT in your town crap. Raise your head up, and pass by, remembering that you are recovering, and she is in a very deep hole.

Now, one thing I will say is that your WH will not stop trying to 'intrude' on your life, for this is not what he would have chosen. He would want to happily coparent, showing the world what a super dad is. Ah, and one more thing about that; this is obviously part of an EN for him (being a good dad, and everyone else knowing it/admiration), and he can't have that without your participation.

Lilsis... I will keep my mouth shut about this from now on..... because what I would have you do is end this entire mess now...Plan B would end today and Plan D would begin full force.
I do not beleive that your H will respond to Plan B... and that any cracks in him... which I doubt will show... I feel will be a result of YOU psuhing the divorce proceedings. Plan FU has shown itself to be very helpful at times and I have a distinct feeling that will be the best shot here. Just my opinion though based on what I have seen from some others here... Amiok comes to mind.
But really.... I wouldn't suggest any plan of action to save the M at this point... I think from this point forward anything that happens to save the marriage will have to be a result of your H's actions.
IMO, there comes a time... and everyone needs to make this call for themselves... when the M should be considered dead in the water. Your H does not deserve you Lilsis...he doesn't deserve to have you waste years of your life in unhappiness over his selfish and self centered immorality.
Your kids deserve to have a man in their lives that has character and integrity...your H stole that from them too... and no matter what, they will remember what he has done. They have learned the true measure of this "man."
So, for someone that wasn't going to say much here... I will end this by saying that all I want for you is peace and happiness...nothing more, nothing less. I just don't see that being delivered at any time by your WH.... and for that I am truly sorry for your whole family.

MEDC

mlhb: I'm glad that you can relate to the feeling.

Just to be clear...WH wasn't THAT controlling prior to all of this. Our relationship wasn't THAT lopsided. I did stand up for myself (confronting him on my discomfort with his friendship with RT, etc.).

I expected to be treated as an equal and with respect, we made decisions together, etc. I was conscious of it, because his dad was so obviously controlling...it appeared to me that WH had escaped that curse, for which I was very thankful.

Once the A started, all the controlling behavior bubbled right up and I was baffled by it because he never seemed to be that way previously. He demonstrated a lot of P/A tendencies.

All good, MEDC. Thanks. I hear your concern.

Don't get down over the neighbor thing. Dust and move on.


It's normal to be triggered by even those little things, so don't be hard on yourself over it. Just keep swimming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe that's were all this tension is coming from...my jaw, my upper back. I am like a knot. No matter how hard I try to relax, I don't seem able to. And it's persistent. I wake up in the morning and I can tell I spent the night clenching my teeth.

How ridiculous is that?

And about SuperDad? OH YEAH. It is very important for him to LOOK like a prince of a dad. Appearances. Superficiality. Not about what REALLY makes a good dad. Sigh. Sad for the boys.

I'll keep thinking about the control thing. I WANT to get there, you know?

Hi LS,

WH has been cut off from his family by his own doing! Not yours! If other people don't see that, it's their problem, not yours.

He gets to make choices and so do you.

WH hates Plan B. He did not expect it, nor does he understand it. Too bad so sad!

The fact is that he's NOT HAPPY! And like Mimi said, his A isn't doing it for him like it did before.

It must suck bigtime to know a neighbor is playing ball w/ your sons b/c you are no longer available to them. Thus the strange phone call the other day when he said he was returning a call from D11. He's screwed up in the head over this.

You're seeing cracks.

Get back under the cover of darkness.

Trust that God is applying lots of pressure on WH, while He's healing you.

Oh, and about seeing RT. Practice smiling knowingly/smugly in the mirror, w/ your arms folded across your chest, and your nose in the air. And the next time you see her again, don't run, just give her your well practiced look.

((((LS)))))


~ Marsh

Talked to neighbor. We're good. She understood, no question...she reassured me. We're going to get flowers later, at the neighborhood market down the street from RT's.

My nipples will be to the wind and my nose will be in the air (even if I don't quite feel it on the inside).

And in terms of this:The only people who don't "see" it are ILs. Which hurt me deeply to realize, and still hurts. I think my little self-defeating voice is telling me that others must think that, too, and maybe they are right.

But I shall dust that off, too, in time. That little self-defeating voice needs to shaddup. I refuse to be caught up in other people's denial. I know the truth.

TODAY, I will plant some annuals and make my yard look fabulous. Mr. Neighbor is going to help DS11 rototill the veggie garden. Tomorrow is Shrek (cause it's gonna rain). I will get through this weekend, and the hormonal tsumani will have passed.

Thanks, Marsh.

Lil Sis, I think Nia was reacting to your neighbor's actions not yours.

I think she meant that her telling you set you back- not your reaction to it. We had been seeing how you were making good progress.

Honestly, I read Nia's post as defensive of you - not critical.

I slept late and woke up with a crick in my neck and feel rotten so not sure I am making sense - but I didn't see it as being critical of you. A lot of us have an almost emotional stake in you. We want the very best for YOU - yeah, we are hoping you recover your marriage, but it is YOU who is important to us.

Ok, I will quit rambling and see if a shower will wake me up and make me feel better.

Still praying for you, LS.

Sis ~ Let's get this out of the way first....because I have a couple of hard things to say to you...


It's not a DJ. It's a factual observation.

You were gaining peace of mind, strength, and acceptance.

Then your neighbor filled you in on details about your husband that you did NOT need, and should NOT have heard.

Your peace, your serenity, your strength, all flew out the window.

Your attempts to control your neighbor, your attempts to keep track of your husband are all FEAR responses.

I didn't call you a loser. That's YOUR spin and filter and your fear talking, NOT me.


This is your fear talking to you. THIS is the tape that plays in your head, this is what you tell yourself when you choose to allow FEAR power in your head.

I did say you were "set back" - ie, you aren't perfect. And THAT is OK. That's not a judgement. It just IS. You can't fix what you do not acknowledge. People aren't perfect - the need for perfectionism is another type of control, another fear response.

A few days ago you had stepped out of fear and were living in the present. Now you are back in a defensive position. That is what I call a set-back.

Now another observation:

You are spending an enormous amount of time on this thread discussing your husband's state of mind. This is DJ behavior and IS not part of plan B. It doesn't matter right now if your husband is coming back or not.

You are financially and physically safe and your children are well cared for. You are not under legal duress. You have no pressing need to take legal action. WHATS THE HURRY? WHY are we even discussing this right now?

The urging here to give up hope and to plan D is premature for many many reasons.

YOU are not ready yet. You are growing, you are surviving, you are gaining confidence. But you are not done grieving and you are not ready to let go of your marriage. That's ok. I'm not sure what the rush is for other folks on this board to make sure you get that your husband isn't coming back (and I disagree with their 'spin' but thats not important).They don't have to live your life. You are not missing anything or being harmed by sitting in plan B.

YOUR state of mind and heart is important and needs to be protected. Thats the ONLY item that should factor into your decision. What your husband's state of mind is in is completely IRRELEVANT.

Now one more thing...


Your pain, hurt and fear in the above statement are the result of misplaced, inappropriate expectations.

In my 12 step program I learned that "Expectations are premeditated resentments."

I felt betrayed, attacked, neglected and hurt by many people in my life because of my inappropriate expectations of them. Those offenses were all in my OWN head.

I could write on and on about expectations. But let me just say this. Boundaries are about you. If you EXPECT others to respect boundaries you will be disappointed over and over and over. Boundaries are what you do to take care of you. You are responsible for your boundaries, not anyone else.

You can not control the outcome of your marriage. Right now, God is working on your husband. Let HIM GO, stop trying to interfere with God's work by attempting to manipulate other people into behaving how you want them to (ie neighbors and in-laws).

Turn your attention BACK to your own personal growth and your LIFE and your CHILDREN.

Let your husband go, stop watching, stop picking that scab.

Your husband is going to keep trying to breach Plan B. Make sure your walls are tight, and get back to your life. You will know when it is time to recover your marriage or divorce your husband - but its not time for either right now.

Refocus!

dotto BrambleR

edit:

or ditto, either one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LS,
about PMS - go buy a vitamin that has Calcium, Magnesium and Zinc - I think there is one with just those three in it.

You can also get a homeopathic remedy from a good health food store. The kind I have are little pills you put under your tongue. I take mine for menapause- but they have them for PMS. These have done wonders for me.

(((LS)))

Sis,

Time was, not so long ago, all WH had to do was dangle a bare hook in front of you to get you to take the bait.

You stopped.

When Plan B began, he was able to get you to nibble.

You stopped.

He tried other lures.

You stayed away.

Now he is throwing everything in his tackle box at you, because he cannot understand why you are not being tempted to take that bait like you used to be.

He tried the private line at work, sister, MIL, neighbors, and - last resort - using a faked message from DS11 to get you to bite (remember, the call to the neighbor was actually before the message to DS11). You almost bit on MIL on Mother's Day. And the neighbors tempted you last night. But you are staying in control of you.

Next - I expect him to show up in person somewhere.

Would you be open to a suggestion for PMS? Look into phytoestrogens or other herbal supplements. It worked wonders for me and allowed me to make an almost flawless transition through menopause.

Hi sis

You are doing great-especially considering pms and the trigger of seeing RT.

I had the funniest thought about what you could do the next time you have a chance encounter with the site of RT. Just picture Glinda the Good Witch from Wizard of Oz and repeat what she said to the Wicked Witch of the West (in that same sing-song voice) "Be gone. You have no power here."

It's just silly enough to possibly take the edge off.

I'm so glad you were able to talk with your neighbor. Enjoy your flowers and Shrek.

Keeping you in my prayers