Before you add any herbal supplements ask a pharmacist if they are copacetic with your antidepressant meds or other meds ... like birth control pills

just to be safe

BR: you are right. Good call, and thank you for following up with such a detailed response.
Yes. True. Temporarily!! My REaction--my fear--didn't allow me to hear the "temporarily" part. I haven't lost all of that for good. I just needed to get some perspective to bring them all back home to roost. My FEAR response sends them flying. But I am also learning to keep the fear at bay. It can easily (on a day like yesterday, with multiple triggers) overtake me.

My reaction to your statement was my FEAR response HEARING you saying that I had lost everything for good.
And I felt (feel?) defensive, like I'm looking over my shoulder...especially last night...seeing RT, then the revelation from my neighbor...yikes...when's the next shoe going to fall (looking around frantically while my peace, strength and serenity fly out the window unnoticed).

You see? Yes...it was FEAR. Distracting me.

I totally agree with that statement. I don't feel that *I* have INITIATED those tangents on the thread, though...others have. I'll try to be more aware of it, however, in my own comments. Point taken.

I am very well aware of my sitch...D is moving along since WH filed, I am not doing anything to hasten it, just BEING, healing, growing.

AMEN!! I tried to say this yesterday. So let's all close the book on this one, shall we?

Help with this, please. I count on others (EXPECTATIONS?!?!) to maintain those walls...help? LK, my sister, my mom, my neighbor, my co-workers. Their marching orders: keep WH out. let LS heal.

I'm not sure how to keep my walls tight without my army? I know boundaries are mine, ultimately, but dang, the army sure does help...

Am I just not trusting MYSELF enough that I can't hold my own boundary? I am AFRAID that I can't withstand his assault? Is that the heart of the matter?

Thoughts?

pep: ahhhh....little need for OCs these days...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Since you asked ~ I say yes... a recent poster who was in Plan B waaaay too long comes to mind...

Now I am in no way comparing you, Sis, to this poster... please do not think that... I just do not want you to even start thinking or acting as such though...

Perhaps Plan B just normally brings out this kind of thought process... but dear, I am just trying to bring it to your attention in the kindest, gentlest way... since you did ask and I have not seen anyone adress it...

Sis ~ I love you to death and that is the truth... as everyone here does... I pray each and every day for you and your ds s.... but - I do not specifically pray for your WH to come home.. I pray for God to bring you peace, health and happiness... whatever He has in store for you...

That comment just struck me as a teeny tiny flag that you may have - temporialy - started down a wrong path and I just wanted to, kindly, bring it to your attention...

P.S. Don't you dare give RT or WH your power.... You Sis are better, much better than them !

Carn: I take your comments in the very best way. I understand where you are going. I think I'm working that through in my head a bit in response to BR's more recent post.

The 100% remark: It's my FEAR talking.

Fear that I won't be able to hold my own if Plan B is breached and WH appears before me. Fear that my army won't be able to keep me sheltered from the storm. Fear that someone may hurt me...even unintentionally, or with good intentions.

I think I am probably strong enough...but I seem to NEVER believe I have the strength to do anything until I try, and survive. I underestimate myself. Then I look back and say, "Hmm. Look at that. I did it. What do you know."

My FEAR tells me that WH is my Achille's heel, and to beware, and to run and hide. WH and RT are very, very scary. I need to be able to stand up to them. Don't have to SEE them, or talk to them, or anything...but I need to have the confidence that I won't shrivel up and collapse when/if they invade my safe place.

But you can see, given the history, why I would be very, very afraid of them...from a behavioral perspective. I'm freakin' Pavlov's dog.

And to clarify: In my remark, I was referring exclusively to people IRL, btw...just in case you were thinking otherwise...AND simply in terms of their willingness to buffer me from WH.

And I pray, too, for peach, health and happiness...and just a teeny bit of hope that He brings that soon...

SPEAKING OF STRENGTH; I just dug the hole and planted the wisteria. I sweat like a pig, but I did it, and DS11 helped fill it in and water it once we got the root ball in.

Underestimated myself once again....

Sis ~

Perfectionism is the Fear of Not-Being-Good-Enough.

You do not need an army to protect you. You are enough.

About boundaries.

Your boundary: You (You!) will not communicate with your husband except through LK.

Since you have control over you, and you have control over access to you, you can hold that boundary.

That boundary does NOT require other people to change ANYTHING they are doing.

Who cares if your husband is canvasing the neighborhood asking about you? He is NOT communicating with you. If a neighbor says: Hey your husband asked about you - so what?

You can hold your boundary by saying, Please do not tell me about my husband while he is in an adulterous relationship, as it hurts to much to hear about him.

Now your neighbor can say OK and not tell you anything further OR your neighbor can continue to tell you about your husband and YOU CAN WALK AWAY. (weeeee, Self Power!)

If your husband calls your sister or your neighbor or your mother or your voicemail to communicate with you, you do NOT HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR RESPOND.

You do not have to spend hours (wasting your time and your power!) explaining to all these people how to respond to your husband and getting hurt when they disagree or choose to do something else.

He can go blah blah blah blah blah and you don't have to even NOTICE IT unless he does it through LK.

See how that works? He does whatever he needs to do. You do whatever you need to do.

oh yes....and until you learn to trust yourself, you will never trust others....

If you do not value yourself, no one else will either.

Do not waste your precious, valuable life, joy, serenity and happiness by waiting for OTHER people to decide that YOU are enough.

((( Sis )))

So glad you understood what I was saying ... (I thought you would)... 'nuff said about that then...

And ~ I bet you feel darn proud of yourself for digging that hole !!!

Way to go ~ You Did It !!!!!

And guess what? I did the perimeter, but DS11 is out mowing the back yard! His first time. He is a mowing virgin no longer.

I have made some strides today. Not as much as I would have liked to have accomplished in the garden, but from an emotional standpoint. AND in the midst of PMS.

LilSis:

Back to the Star Wars theme:

You must face your fear to overcome it.

You fear WH and RT.

RT will be a factor in rest of your life, either as the OW that was disposed of or the OW that WH keeps.

You, however, should never have fear of her.

If RT turns into your aisle at the grocery store, you just ignore her.

There is nothing to fear from her.

However, she does fear you. She didn't know you were across the street at PJ. (the Best! BTW)

YOU are the ONE person that can destroy the world that she has created with WH. And ONLY YOU. Face that fear.


WH?

Yes, the fear of WH.

He is probing to defeat the Plan B.

As BR said, say "Please do not tell me about my husband while he is in an adulterous relationship, as it hurts to much to hear about him. To any one else who brings him up. That is your only control. They might not understand what you are trying to accomplish, and you can't explain it in 30 seconds. And everyone else who says "you should get along because it is better for the kids or whatever reason they come up with for you to stop working your plan." Your response: "Because he is in an adulterous relationship, this is what HE wants." and either bring up a new conversation, stare them in the eye to continue or walk away.

Your only fear should be that WH will show up at the house. And attempt to get you to talk to him.

What do you do then?

You are backed into the corner, again, by HIS actions. And you will feel that way.

That is when you hand him, again, the Plan B letter. And ask him to leave.

That is my fear. What to do then? When he refuses?

Plan FU gives him the power. So, we need to help LilSis out with this.

Because as I said before, Plan B is killing him. All his probes, all his attempts, are getting ignored/diverted.

It KILLED him to admit to the Mr. Neighbor that it was nice of him to play ball with HIS son.

If I was WH, I would have turned around and B**ch-slapped RT just for that alone.

But I'm not WH. I'm just a lousy golfer, now.

Does the information that you are getting set you back on the recovery? Yes. But not much, really. Because it just shows how pathetic he is.

And he really, really wants to A Good Guy. And your not letting him. But that was his choice.

LG

Sis,

I read a few (no...LOTS!) of posts back that you are having issues trusting people.

I want to talk a little about that.

It is right for you not to trust some of the people in your life, because they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.

But there are many others you can trust, and you should. Because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them untrustworthy. It makes them....of differing opinions. That's all.

But what I really wanted to post about was the trust thing. With my background, trust in others was a significant issue for me. I basically trusted no one. That was pretty illogical - and given that I am sort of Vulcan in my thought processes, I had to move in a more logical direction!

So I came up with this analogy.

There were two women in a restaurant eating lunch. When they got up to leave, one of the left her purse behind. The waiter recalled looking at the women as they had come in. One had on sunglasses, a red blouse, a hat, and carried a tote bag. The other had on sunglasses, a pink blouse, a visor, and carried a straw bag. He decided that the purse must belong to the lady with the tote bag, and that she must have taken it out of the tote bag while at the table. He chased her to the car, and tried to return it to her.

She told him it was not hers, but that it belonged to the other lady. That the other lady had actually brought in the straw bag and the smaller purse, having just bought the straw bag at the little shop next door.

The waiter had misattributed the purse to the wrong woman, for the right reasoning.


I'm telling you this because right now, you are misattributing the character flaws of RT and WH and perhaps your ILs onto others in your life. The right reasoning is in place - you are trying to defend yourself, stay safe, keep yourself strong, etc.

But at the same time, could you be also keeping some people back who could come in closer, be helpful, and loving to you? Just something to consider. Try not to close yourself off, that's all I want you to think about. Don't push yourself too far back, because you lose trust in people. Because everyone isn't just like your WH and RT.

And you do have to have some opening for WH to change.

For when/if he comes back.

For when/if the affair ends.

I'm in the camp that he will "run into" you somewhere, "accidentally".

Do you have a plan for that? You need one.

As for RT sightings. I have had those. My RT showed up at my work. I came around the corner in the office, and there it was, in all it's skanky glory. I knew I smelled garbage when I came in the door.

She said, "Hi!" and then, "Oh." when she realized that she had NO RIGHT TO SPEAK IN MY PRESENCE.

She stepped back out of my way and I held my head high, walked past her, and said, "Excuse me."

Under my breath, I muttered, "Clean up on aisle 6. You'll need the haz-mat team."

I kept walking. Nobody knew, but I did. I was shaken to the core, went on to my meeting, and had a thoroughly rotten day. But SHE never knew.



I only wish I could have crossed her path in the grocery store, and shouted out loud what I said under my breath. Then, screamed, "Nipples to the wind!" and ran out the door.

Now THAT would be more fun. Here in a small town, I might even get some gossip going.

CJ:

I have always liked your style and think you are a smart and seasoned individual. I will have to question something that you posted above however.

Is it your thought, that those cheaters (men and women) alike who DO NOT want to reconcile with their betrayed spouse are mentally ill or have a personality disorder or have always had a co-dependent relationship (watch it wity that co-dependent word, there are some who think CO-DEPENDENCY is essential to any marriage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)?

I don't really happen to think that the WH in this case is mentally ill or that the marriage was wrought with dysfunction before this happened. I don't think he is category 3 at all actually.

Is there perhaps a category 4? Sometimes people change, some people are just "bad" people...maybe WE are the one's who made them out to be people that weren't, sometimes people fall out of love (and STAY THERE) and simply don't want to be with you anymore? I happen to believe that the one's MOST GUILTY of rewriting the marriage are the the Betrayed Spouses here. Go figure since I am in that category. I am sorry, but I just don't buy it....Here is the classic example professed here. A WS was a wonderful guy and father his whole life, he got mixed up and poisoned by a sexy younger woman (because his BS wife did not meet his emotional needs) and "turned evil" while he inhaled on her devil fumes...he breaks it off after two years of being exposed (magical waiting period) and then he is back to being a great guy and father and can chalk it all up to the other woman and her evil possession of him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes, NO MATTER what, a cheater does NOT want the BS back....CONSEQUENCES and all....it happens, and alot more than we want to believe. I am one of the "bad guys" here (a labeled non supporter) and believe that the only pain being exacted on the WS here is the pain of not being seen as a good dad...it is NOT to get a fix of Lilsis or any of that (and I think she is smart enough to know that). Yeah, it could be the loss of "control", but that's not enough here. I would like to be wrong and be made to eat crow...I don't have any words of wisdom or advice for her. I feel regret every time I post a reply on this thread.


LM

Never Mind... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LilSis

I think it might be an idea to start planning for these trigger situations, especially with reference to RT and WH. I'm thinking that you have a history of being physically reactive in situations where you're stressed and provoked, and to have that happen again would not do you or the boys any good. RT seems to know how to press your buttons, so I think your sense of fear around her has good cause.

Perhaps this is an area you could kick around with your IC - role-playing, maybe?


TA

I'll let CJ respond to the larger issue. But let me examine your hypothesis in the case of me and WH.

First, you take a history, right? We are both third-generation college educated, solidly middle-class, intact FOO. We got married in our late 20s, and had previous relationships. We both had jobs, car payments, apartments, etc. when we met and got married. We dated for a year before we got engaged, got married a year later.

Nothing remarkable. So let's look at your category 4, if just for kicks and giggles, and see how it fits.

1. For WH to have "changed," he would have had to have changed REALLY, REALLY radically. I mean in a way that would indicate some kind of personality disorder. From someone who is caring and compassionate to just about everyone, into someone who could shrug and stab his wife (me) in the back, twist the knife brutally, abandon his kids, and betray his own family and friends. Without so much as a, "Gee, honey, maybe we better go to marriage counseling."

2. For WH to be a "bad" person, same thing. He wasn't a "bad" person before...I saw no indication of it...nor did anyone in my family, my friends, etc. (I'll exclude his family so as not to skew the sample.) I'm assuming you mean "bad" in the pathological sense, because what he did was truly evil and cruel....so in that sense, if he were pathological, I could see your argument. But that's not WH. I think the shrinks who evaluated him to be a cop would have caught that...or there would have been a history of killing kittens, pulling legs off spiders, setting fires, or something. WH = nada.

3. For WH to have fallen out of love, stay there, and just not want to be with me anymore, he would have had to turn his back on EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY value and more and belief that he vehemently professed prior to the A and by which he was raised. And again, without so much as a "Gee, honey, maybe we should go to marriage counseling."

I think you are right that "it" happens more that any of us want to believe. Very sad. But believe me...I have tried and tried and tried to figure MY situation out in every conceivable way. I even told my IC that I really need a "story" so that I can put this all into a context that MAKES SENSE. And the only one that works SO FAR, is the addiction model.

WH was a good guy, a really, really good guy. Everyone loved him, admired him, thought the world of him. And it was sincere, it really was...at least at first...who knows when it became an act to cover for the A. Previously, he had nothing but contempt for guys who had affairs.

So when you ask "why that concept is impossible to understand," THAT'S why. Because it doesn't fit ANYTHING that I (or anyone else for that matter) knew or believed to be true about him, or saw or heard or was indicated by his behavior. UNTIL the A.

For ME, the "sunshine enemas" aren't so much about convincing me that H will come around. That's his choice. It's about getting me through this incredibly, horrifyingly, indescribably brutal chapter in my life. The sunshine brightens this landscape that has been ravaged by a firestorm, and allows some seeds to start growing again.

Do you see? I don't know if H will ever come out of this. But I will, I HAVE to. Right now I'm not ready to just throw in the towel on anything...not ready to make ANY big moves. I've got enough to deal with without putting some kind of pressure on myself to feel one way or another. I'm dealing with this incredible loss, this huge tragedy in my life...I grieving, deeply grieving.

I just want TIME to let the seeds of my life to take root and grow. No massive deluges of rain, no scorching droughts, no freezes, no weeds choking me out...no extremes at all. Just good growing weather. Some rain, some sun, some warmth.

That's why yesterday, I ASKED for sunshine enemas...not about WH or our marriage...but about ME.

Ahhhh...Lem. I wish I could get you to understand ME, and not see this as just some case study in infidelity.

TA: I did go to the market today, the one a block from RT's house. My neighbor had company, so she couldn't go with me...I was planning on her going just to provide back-up if needed.

I did fine. I little anxious, but I kept envisioning my nipples to the wind, and schoolbus saying "excuse me" and the bright Glinda smile on my face as I look at the wicked witch of the west.

Even if inside I would be crumbling.

Good idea to toss it around with IC.

LilSis -

I am divorced now. But I am as mystified as you. I knew my WH for 5 years before we married. We worked together, and I thought I knew him well. He was a good man, and everyone liked him. He was kind to everyone, and that is what made me fall in love with him. It didn't matter if it was the Queen of England, or a down and out heroin addict. He treated people well.

Our marriage was not perfect, but we were mainly happy. I finally threw out all my cards and letters from him, but up until a week before he met the OW, he seemed to love me. At least that is what he wrote and said.

After D-day, he turned into a man that I never would have been attracted to. He was cold, I could see it in his eyes. He had no feelings at all for me, but just wanted his next fix from the OW.

Now, it could be that he was like this inside and had hid it well for 15 years. It is hard to believe, but that is the only way I can reconcile his before and after.

The odd thing is that he and OW broke up forever just a month after our divorce was final. Since then he has begged me to take him back. His kids say he is miserable and suicidal. Sadly, I don't care.

B:
So in your case, the addiction model was the only one that "fit," too? As unhappy as your outcome was with regard to your marriage and your XH, YOU have recovered. You are a success story, a survivor.

WH and I may not recover, either. But he sounds A LOT like your XH, and I don't think either of them are in Lemon's category 4. They sound like addicts. Ready to give up everything and anything to get a fix. Unrecognizable. Unfeeling. Heartless. And out of nowhere.

Not saying that there's no such thing as category 4, but your XH and my WH are not in it.

Good Guys Gone Wild. Sad.

Thanks for sharing, believer.

Sis, you're getting some good advice (BrambleRose!) and some that's not so good. I think there are a couple of posters that you should put on ignore if you still want to save your marriage.

I DITTO SDGUY!!