Who knows, LilSis. I have a hard time believing that he changed, and fell out of love, just about the time the OW came along.

Now, if he had told me he was unhappy, or had not kept telling me he was happy, I might buy that scenario. We had a very intimate relationship, and I even remember one night laying in bed, and him telling me that he hoped he never did anything to hurt me. That was very close to the time he met OW. I didn't even think about it until after D-day.

Now, if he had mentioned problems before he had the affair, or wanted to go to counseling, or just said he was done, then I would believe that maybe he changed and didn't love me anymore. But we were in the process of buying a new Harley - the 2003 Anniversary year. We had talked long hours about where we would ride.

That is why I believe the addiction thing. As you read here, you will see folks that seemed to be happy, that were building a new home, having a baby, adopting a child. One would think that a wayward would not go through with these things if the marriage was dying.

yeah... because Lilsis can't handle other opinions right Mimi??? She doesn't have the ability to decide what is best for her situation...right???? Sort of like when you told me that I should not give Eav contrary opinions.... oops, that's right, you were wrong... censorship is not the answer here... everyone has a voice and Lilsis has a brain and can figure out what to do on her own.
Did you heer Lem come out and say if you don't want to lose any more sanity don't listen to Mimi cause all she is concerned about is marriage and everything else be damned. No... and your post and agreement with Sdguy is just a rude thing to say. But typical if I am being truthful.... anything that veers from your way of thinking should be censored.
Perhaps if YOU had listened sooner that something was up with Eav and it wasn't quite right... you would have been able to help more... learning Mimi... this is all about learning and YOU and I can learn from everyone here... just like the Harley's did and do.
How about stopping the higher than thou bs for a while everyone... we are all here to help Lilsis and offer what we feel is in her best interests. If this was not valuable there would be no need for a forum... we could just hand everyone the MB cookbook and let them follow along step by step and poof, recovered M at the end. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

MEDC

the addiction thing makes sense to me on a level... but there must exist a character flaw in the first place to allow someone to get their "first taste" of the "drug." Just like a drug addiction... a person was not addicted before the first time they tried it... and there are a lot of good marriages out there that are touched by infidelity...a lot. It is not always about unmet needs.
I am of the belief that when someone is caught in an affair... just like any crime, this happens to be the time they got caught...that most likely there were other and maybe many other times it happened. It is rare to catch someone the first time they commit a crime... and I feel the same way about infidelity. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that any WS or FWS on here had other incidents in their lives that pointed to this type of behavior.
In our district there was a saying to never be surprised when you find out the murderer also cheated on his taxes....

Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.

BR - I really have a need to know why. I don't want to repeat the same mistakes. Also the whole thing just came out of the blue so much. I think asking why is a part of healing.

really???? I think "why" is an important detail... my IC agrees...he says, and I agree that if you don't know why something happened, you cannot have any reasonable assurance that it won't happen again. Why isn't about controlling anyone except yourself.... by knowing "why" we can decide whether it is worth hanging around or cutting our losses.

Also... why is a necessary piece... motive... when looking at crime... and I liken infidelity to criminal behavior.

MEDC:

I stand on what I said to Sis..

I'm not arguing with you about this...you seem argumentative...

I'm respecting Sis' choice to come to this website to work towards RECOVERY of her marriage and she has said even recently that she continues to have love for her husband...

I don't need anyone to agree with me...

I just want to help folks recover marriages if that's what they choose to do ...THAT'S ONE OF MY MISSIONS IN THIS LIFE..this is what I CHOOSE TO DO WITH MY LIFE...

If there's ANY CHANCE whatsoever that my help will lead others to be as happy with their spouses as I am with my FWH..I call him H now..as I am TONIGHT...then that will warm my heart...

AND MY H WAS ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT THAN SIS' H OR EVEN WORSE..I GUARANTEE YOU...

Eav does not apply to this situation at all..if she had been HONEST WITH ME, I would not have recommended her use of the MB approach..and if Sis' WH SEEMED DIFFERENT than mine I wouldn't share as I do to her...

I can't help it if he is ACTING SO TYPICAL, IMO...

Go ahead and have your opinion, MEDC. Fine with me..and I will have mine...

You should stand on what you said about her recovering her M. That is my point here... we all have a voice and while I see her sitch different, I want her to be happy, just like you.

Yes, Eav is relevant because if you stopped and listened to others you would have been prompted to ask her more questions. The woman was seriously disturbed and then when she took issue with you... it all made sense. Perhaps the fact that she was taking issue with so many should have been a clue as to her mental state.... just my opinion.

MEDC and Believer -

You are both in much different places than LilSis.

"Why" at this time, for her, is a controlling question that takes her back into the past, into fear, guilt and shame.

Plan B does not include long drawn out disections of WH. LilSis needs to move forward into her life and refocus on the present.

you might be right about that.... it is worth some thought.

From an old post:

When I stop focusing on my husband and what he should or should not be doing, and analyzing his motivations and his every action...I find that I have alot more time to focus on who I am.

Good heavens, people! I take one day to go work in my yard, and look what happens. First it's ForeverHers and bigkahuna in Eph's thread fighting over who's Christianity is better...and now it's mimi fighting with MEDC and sort of lemonman!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> GEEZ! Do you really think this is constructive for LilSis? Cuz if not...TAKE IT OFF HER THREAD AND MAKE YOUR OWN TO FIGHT ON!

Let's get a few things straight here. First, I personally believe lemonman has a PARTIAL point about there being category 4 WS's...in that I was not very precise about my description of category 3 WS's. No, not ALL WS's who choose to stay out of a marriage have a diagnosable personality disorder or mental illness. That was inaccurate of me. What I believe happens for category 3 WS's is that there is some BUILT IN personality time-bomb within them...usually put there due to FOO issues...and prior to the bomb going off, their personality and "who they are" is one way--whereas, AFTER the little time-bomb goes off, it is like they completely change personalities and the BS says to themself, "Who IS that person, because it's not the S I've known now for 20 years??!!"

Here's an example. My exH's father died at the age of 42 when exH was like 13yo. My exH was abusive (as I've told you folks here on MB) and I was pretty entangled with him...yet let's skip that for the purpose of the example right now. As exH approached the age at which his dad died, the choices he made and his behavior got more and more and more BIZARRE, until finally in his own IC he was diagnosed with a Borderline, Bipolar, and Anxiety. This was evidenced by his choices to push people away but also try to pull them close...by extreme mood swings...by thinking of himself more grandiosely than was "real"...etc. The point, though, was that prior to approaching the age of his dad dying, there was no way to tell that he was going to behavior BIZARRELY as he approaching 40yo!! That was a personality time-bomb put there by his FOO. Sort a get it??

I believe the reason for these personality time-bombs is twofold.

First, I believe they are like MEDC described...a crack within them that makes them susceptible to tendencies and issues. Do they all develop into full-fledged, DIAGNOSABLE personality disorders or mental illness?? No. No they do not! But do WS's in category 3 have a strong tendency toward "sudden onset" Narcissism? Sort of! How about sudden onset Borderline (push/pull, splitting the BS into "all good" or "all bad", hoovering--sucking BS back into arguments, etc.)? Sort of! What I'm saying is that category 1 and 2 WS's have the internal tools and strength to face themselves, face reality, and deal with the BS is a way that is fairly mentally healthy. HOWEVER, category 3 WS's do not have the tools to face themselves or face reality or face their BS. SOMETHING within them is askew and may have been set off by an internal time-bomb! Their ways of dealing with things are USUALLY controlling, passive-aggressive, avoidance or denial...or something along that line. There is, somewhere within, a crack in their character!

Second, I believe these personality time-bombs are directly related to the deliberate choice to sin. Without being "preachy" I think in a broad, sweeping way most people know what is right and what is wrong. And I'm not here to discuss that now. What IAM discussing is a category 3 WS who has a personality crack...who knows that having an A is wrong and doesn't want to quit doing what they know is sin. Hey--it "feels good" or "it makes me happy" or something! They choose to continue doing what they know is wrong!!!!!! Thus, as they continue to live in sin, one of the consequences of that is to have to do MORE sin to cover for it, to blame, to justify, etc. Another consequence is that they slowly grow numb to doing what's wrong, and it doesn't hurt so much, they accept it, and it's easier to do more. Therefore, in a person who already has a character crack, what happens is that avoiding and denying that they are doing what they KNOW DARN WELL is sin...the personality time-bomb blows within them, blowing that little crack wide open and now it's a gaping hole!

Now...what about the S who just calmly says, after 15 years of M, that they aren't seeing anyone or anything but they sincerely have not been happy, they've been telling you for 15 years they're not happy and you've been unwilling to change, and now they have decided to divorce? There honestly is NO A--they have just made a decision to end the M? I don't think that person is a WS at all, so there's no category. I think that person knows that divorce is harmful, but that 15 years in an unloving M is harmful too and they have just determined in their heart to do what is wrong. People do that ALL THE TIME, and there is no crack in their character, so they don't end up acting out of mentally ill tendencies or disorders. They just suck it up and deal with the consequences of what they chose. I believe that is pretty different from a person who is a WANDERING SPOUSE who is under the addictive-type hormones of an A.

Finally, let's discuss the question: "Was the M of every category 3 WS dysfunctional?" The obvious answer is NO! And yet, the more precise answer is that there is a high likelihood that the ways that the couple interacted had some level of dysfunction to it. For example, often (not always) the BS is entangled with the WS and not differentiated. Often (not always) the BS has their self-esteem and identity tied in with their WS in an unhealthy way. Often (not always) there are some power conflicts going on. ETC! One S having an A is the ULTIMATE "dysfunction"... Soooo...you get the drift, right?

Now, stop picking on each other, shake hands, and behave on LilSis' thread! Mimi, MEDC has the right to disagree with you...and your right to think what you think is not diminished by his opinion. MEDC, you spoke/wrote in a cranky tone to Mimi. Yeahh..."she started it" rolling her eyes at you, but you didn't have to choose to response in a defensive way.

Both of you--sit in the corner until you can play nice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

The mama bee,



CJ

Gotcha kid........cyrstal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

LM

Lil Sis, I think Nia was reacting to your neighbor's actions not yours.

I think she meant that her telling you set you back- not your reaction to it. We had been seeing how you were making good progress.

Honestly, I read Nia's post as defensive of you - not critical.
________________________

Moveforaward is right. i was not being critical of your planB when i reposted BR's comments......i just hated that you were feeling SUCKED IN again.....i know that feeling,LS..i struggle w/ it too......whenever i get reactionary and dwell there, it does not helping ME any.

i am sorry if i offended you.i think you have been doing great.
just wanted to remind you to not let WH ruffle your feathers.....and try not to expect too much from others..like your neighbors...who really do not understand plan B.
years ago, i had a BIL who was practicing plan B on the family........i was so confused...i couldn't understand how or why he would be so rude to the rest of the family.
i had no clue...... from where i was sitting he looked unreasonable. i know better now.

you have been doing great. just relax and stay focused on you.
i think it's natural for you to have these moments of doubt and fear....even a little paranoia when it comes to trusting others.
jeez....you have been horrifically betrayed.
just trying to remind you to not let it get the best of you feel that urge to blame and react.. .....don't dwell in that place. it doesn't get us anywhere...it just sets us back.

happy sunday!

Thank you, Mama Bee (and referee).

I feel like CJ...gee, go off to watch a movie with my kids, get a good night's sleep, and come back to a full-on brawl (okay, overstating). So I'll just put that aside for the moment and start from the most recent post and work backwards.

Lem: Here's where I understand why you fear being misunderstood...because I don't know if you meant that facetiously or not. ??? And I understand you are off to the caymans...but anyway...

CJ (and MEDC, in part):
Sounds very, very accurate to my WH. FOO had some issues that I wasn't even aware of until after d-day.

*MIL had some severe depression--I mean the can't get off the couch kind--at some point. Very passive, whole life in a very paternalistic environment. Pregnant with Golden Boy when she got married. This was UNHEARD of in their environment...if they were Catholic, we would be talking mortal sin. I'm sure she carries a mountain of guilt over that one.

*FIL is WAY P/A, with everyone, not just MIL. Example: We go as a whole family to walk the Mackinac Bridge one Labor Day. FIL lags WAAAY behind everyone else, lolly-gagging, gazing out at the view, forcing us all to wait for him, starving, with tired, hungry kids. Well, he's just enjoying himself, and he's not going to let OTHERs ruin HIS experience! This kind of thing happened ALL the time. Even WH recognized it, and it drove him nuts.

*FIL has very, very serious FOO issues of his own. (abuse, watched a brother die in a farming accident)

*Oldest BIL is the Golden Boy...can do NO wrong. FIL and BIL practically fall all over themselves when he shows up in town. WH is highly conflicted about this: also admires his brother, but hates that BIL gets all the attention, when WH is the one who is always HERE, johnny-on-the-spot.

*The whole family is from this highly conservative reformed background...but philosophically, socially and politically, didn't quite fit in, so they stopped going to church altogether when WH was in HS. I was the first non-100% Dutch family member...let alone (gasp!!) Catholic!

*WH has always been an underachiever. I'm guessing much of the above contributed. (Why compete with Mr. Perfect, Dad will undermine me anyway, Mom is non-functioning and unable to support me)

All opportunities for little cracks to develop. Weaknesses that can be exploited. BUT also weaknesses that can be "healed," if one so chooses...if one admits to the weakensses and recongnizes them in oneself. It's still a choice.

BR: I realize that this is all talking about "why," which may not (probably is not) the time to explore. But it's that niggling thing...you CALLED it --- it's the fear again....deep down I FEAR that somehow *I* am to blame.

As I grow and get stronger, I hope to slay that demon. I've done serious damage, mind you....when I think back nine months, I was convinced I was 100% to blame, so I've made some good headway, maybe down to 20%? But I haven't killed him off completely. I need to OWN that WH's A was not MY issue.

You are almost frightenly insightful about what's really going on in my head, btw...raising things that *I* am not consciously aware of.

MEDC and mimi: No one is going on ignore, because I don't want to be snowed. HOWEVER. I am NOT in a place right now to "give up." I know this. My IC knows this. I don't think it's a sure bet, but I need to feel what I am feeling right now. Like it or not, I still have hope.

In the opinion of some, it may be plainly obvious that it is false hope. My IC probably thinks it's false hope. But he isn't going to say, "give it up, LS." No. He says, "You need to go through this grieving process." As recently as Thursday, he said something like, if you tried to flip the switch, it would just come back to haunt you; it's unhealthy. And he offers the support and the tools to deal with the grief and the feelings I am having.

I do not believe I have EVER said that I don't want to hear from those who don't believe there is hope. But what I DON'T want, what is NOT supportive, is to be told day in and day out that this is hopeless...essentially that I shouldn't be feeling the things that I am feeling.

If it IS hopeless, I'd like to get there on my own, in my own way, in my own time. And I'd like for my feelings on this to be respected. MEDC, you've stated your case, and the point has been respectfully considered, acknowledged and responded to by ME (the person about whom you made your point). I just want to point that out, in case it got missed in all the drama...it was a few pages back.

It feels like the shouting match occurs right over my head...I'm not even engaged in it, so I am glad to see that a new thread was created for the shouting match to take place on.

RIGHT NOW...I would just like support. Without giving it a great deal of thought, my primary feelings now are (1) I need to continue to learn and grow and become stronger and more self-assured, and (2) I still love this goofball husband of mine and (3) I think that marriage is divine and not to be cast aside without going to extraordinary measures to save.

The first one is of primary importance, and I need to focus on THAT one, regardless of what anyone's opinion is about whether or not my marriage will ultimately survive or not. That's for later, and it's beyond my control

And for the record: I have NO dirty little secrets in the closet. Zero. Nada. What you see is what you get. I have laid it all out there for your viewing pleasure.

SO TODAY: Now that I've said my peace, can we put this behind us? I'd like to go back to some of BR's recent posts so that I can begin to do this right. But it's hard if I keep getting distracted by all the will-he-or-won't-he-come-around talk. That brings the focus off of where it should be and on to something I can't control.

I hope I have not offended anyone, because everyone has been incredibly supportive and caring in their own way.

nia: I absolutely didn't feel offended. Actually, I was pretty proud of myself for being able (feeling confident enough!) to address the reactons that I had to that statement. So even though I was off-base, it was a step in the right direction for me personally to put myself out there and make that statement...make sense?

The comment was coming from a place of caring, but *I* reacted negatively, out a place of fear and self-doubt.

BR's response was excellent, and I'm GLAD I didn't scare you off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BRAVO and much APPLAUSE to you, Sis...

You are handling PLAN B...much, much better than I did...

I could hardly handle dissenting opinions AT ALL..and you have stepped right up to the plate...

You are MILES ahead of where I was in regards to your PERSONAL RECOVERY/PERSONAL POWER...

((((Sis))))

[quote]nia: I absolutely didn't feel offended. Actually, I was pretty proud of myself for being able (feeling confident enough!) to address the reactons that I had to that statement. So even though I was off-base, it was a step in the right direction for me personally to put myself out there and make that statement...make sense?

The comment was coming from a place of caring, but *I* reacted negatively, out a place of fear and self-doubt.

BR's response was excellent, and I'm GLAD I didn't scare you off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/quote

______________

i know all about the self-doubt and fear.....and blaming myself.
IF i was making him happy, he would have never even thought of straying....what did i do wrong?? blah. blah. blah.

i don't scare off easily....i'll back off but i'll always come back because i am interested in your situation and i think you are pretty special.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I must vouch for Mimi's claim to have been a rather delicate >>ahem<< flower when she was in your situation ... Mimi could not tolerate mild dissension without having a meltdown .... now she can stand on her own 2 feet during a wild verbal storm ... Mimi had to learn the art of self-soothing practically from scratch ... and she has come out of her experience well prepared for future storms .... which will serve her well for the remainder of her life!!!!!

LilSis, it seems to me you're getting over these trigger moments faster and in much better shape than you used to, so kudos to you...this isn't happening by accident!

I'd just like to say that I sympathise with your ongoing puzzlement about the 'why' of all this. I know why people advise you not to get stuck on the 'why' - because it keeps you trapped in a hole - but I also know that it's a blocker to progress when you fear that your own ability to perceive things accurately might be wholly 'off'.

Your WH's leaving had all the hallmarks of an Exit Affair. However, none of the characteristics of an uncomfortable marriage are in evidence even now. Doesn't make sense, unless there's some Big Stuff you haven't told us, or some Big Stuff you didn't notice, or there's something going on here that's way outside Harley and the whole EN model.

Well, I don't believe you're withholding things from us, LS, and I don't think you missed lots of Red Flags. Which leaves us with the third option - that there's something wonky in your WH and the marriage is just an incidental casualty.

I go with the third option. See, I've been here. On d-day, I discovered that my FWH had been deceiving me for our whole relationship, since the very first date. As he has told me, he 'wanted to be the kind of man you'd want to be with'. There were lots of little things that bothered me, but I thought that, if he was lying to me in small ways, his family would know immediately and I would be able to tell from their reactions, and if he was lying to me about big things, they would tell me outright. Ha! In these last few years, I've come to realise that H's family is pathologically insular. Even if they'd known that he'd been married before, or served time in prison, or had a drug addiction or been treated for schizophrenia (as far as I know none of those is true!), they wouldn't have mentioned it. If he'd told me in front of them that he'd been an astronaut or had a liver transplant, they would have smiled genially and said nothing.

So I was faced with the choice of thinking that I was preternaturally naive, or that H's family were part of a systemic disaster. It took me a loooooong time to realise that I am not that dumb, and that some families have deep, awful flaws hidden beneath 'normal' exteriors.

I think you're right to feel nervous about not being able to trust people, not because people are untrustworthy, but because your ability to work out who is worth trusting with what needs working on. There is no person in the world who is wholly trustworthy in all areas. Some people can be trusted in some areas, but not in others. Blaming people because we handed them trust and expected them to be worthy of it is our problem, not theirs. Whether it's WH, or MIL, or the neighbours, or LK, or any of the many people who will behave contrary to our expectations in the future, it's our problem to hone our trust-assessment facilities, and to recalibrate when we get it wrong.

Feeling hurt when our trust is betrayed is normal and healthy. But the next step is to plug the new data into our trust machine and trust a little more wisely next time.

We have to wise up.

TA