So much to say.....so little time.

LADY CLUELESS....laughed out loud with your poop 'monument' musings but you're right.....your post could help the 'just get over it' thread posters. I may quote it over there if I have time and you don't mind.

MEL: I'm not sure I agree yet with trying to keep angry at the personal injustices as a normal thing. Many people have 'wronged me' personally and I have tried and succeeded at releasing such anger so that now I have no feelings.....which according to Dr. Glass in 'Not Just Friends' is helpful, too.

Regarding non-personal injustices generally happening around the world, I do get angry, especially at those things for which I have no control.

My anger towards the OW is not only because of what she did with my H, it's because I tried to help her (yeah, I'm weird, as well as late, backwards, and often wrong) and she spit in my face with her "I fixed me and life is great" taunt. I tried to tell her how hard it would be for her H to deal with her untrustworthiness without help from MB or some other MC. She just said, "he loves me and trusts me and nothing you can do or say can change that."

She's so selfish and in such denial that I'm nearly as angry at me for being so stupid for so long as I am at her for her apparent refusal to think of her H in all this. I'm also angry at him because he did not even seem concerned and has not asked for any more info and did not even have the courtesy to say 'thanks'. I have to let it go for my own sanity, don't I? (It's been a month today since y'all helped me expose to OWH.)

SHINETHROUGH: Jerry, I appreciate your thoughts and how you responded to Mel's rebuke. Thanks for being so open....I want to be the same.

LIFE CHOICE I tend to agree with you that ALL forms of anger is detrimental if not dealt with, but I'll work with our MC to delve deeper and find solutions, if there are any.

ORCHID: Not sure I would even call 911....are there compulsory aid laws in your state?

BRING IT ON: Loved your moth theory of your OP's worth. Made me laugh out loud!

****

Sorry I have to go to work and cannot post, but I welcome more insight, especially from Mel if you have time.

Thanks,
Ace

Ace, it is very normal and healthy to have anger towards those who have harmed you. It is a necessary, normal stage of the grieving process. It would be disfunctional to NOT feel anger. Where it enters the realm of the unhealthy is when one becomes obsessed with those feelings and allows them to control their thoughts and their actions well beyond the recovery stage. However, anger at injustice is a sign of DECENCY. To not have anger at injustice reflects a lack of humanity rather than some imagined "growth."

In your case, contact just ended in your husbands affair, so your recovery has JUST STARTED. You should feel anger as part of your recovery process. Counselors cannot fix "normal."

But most of all, wouldn't you agree it would be a tragic disservice if we aimed to convince betrayed spouses that they were somehow immoral for feeling natural, healthy anger at their victimizers, when it is really just a necessary, healthy stage of the grieving process? Wouldn't that be to victimize them TWICE when they come to us for help? Can you imagine a Rape Crisis Center that attempted to make its clients feel GUILTY because they felt anger towards their rapist? Wouldn't that be…….evil?

What "rebuke?"

OK Ace,

I'm a little dumbfoundered here in why you thought Mel's reply to me was somehow a rebuke????

I certainly did not take it that way, rather, it was simply an honest reply to something I had posted(I don;t know how I always get embroiled in a contovesey, when ther is none?)

Ace, I think you misinterpreted Mel's comments, as I, for one, did not take it that way. I am truly sorry if you did, as it would be a distraction to your thread. I hope you understand.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Hey Mel and Jerry,



QUICK AND EASY ANSWER:

I was in a hurry, sorry......withdraw the word 'rebuke' and insert 'straightforward words'.


MORE THOUGHTFUL ANSWER:

Without knowing any history (I'll play my newby card again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) it appeared that Mel's reference to your drinking problem was something that posters may have tried to help you with over the years and you might have been discounting such help.

But your response to Mel seemed to acknowledge that you appreciated her "straightforward words" which were very helpful.

According to Webster, REBUKE means 'sharp criticism' or 'strong reprimand' so I was obviously wrong to use that word, for which I aplogise.

And I can't post during work, so I had to wait to retract.....sorry for the delay. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

MEL: I forget how recent the start of my recovery actually is....thanks for the reminder.

Ace

Ace,

You had asked me to visit this thread and offer any comments.

From the subject matter and my position as a FWW (although I like RWW much better) I don't know what if anything I can offer. I have to admit, I wince when I read the vehemence with which the OM/OW is regarded (fat ho, well gee, I've called my owndarnedself that before). I certainly don't blame them. I usually avoid these kinds of threads out of respect for BS/FBSs feelings. But I do have the following to offer.

I have a lot of anger towards the OM. I wouldn't call 911 if he were bleeding profusely and I wouldn't bat an eye over it. I don't know if that's weird or unusual, but it's the honest truth.

Anger is definitely a natural stage of the recovery process, and I do agree with Mel that because of the timeframe and multiple d-days, your anger is completely reasonable. Now if it were to go on to the point that it hindered the ability of you and your spouse to recover your M that would be different. But everyone is different, and everyone is going to operate on a different timeline. It's the intensity and affect it has on your daily life that would determine whether it's a problem that needs to be addressed, imo.

But if you want to know do the FWS have anger?

You betcha!

So that begs the question, since I was a willing participant, how do I feel about myself? Angry, ashamed, etc...how do I learn to forgive myself so I can have a recovered marriage but still say it's okay to hate the OM. Can I hate the OM and forgive myself? No clue.

My DH says the best revenge on the OP is to live a good life and have a happy marriage. That's just what we're doing.

Ace, I doubt any of that was helpful, but there it is. And FWIW, I thought what Mel said was a rebuke too until they both clarified it. That's one of the disadvantages of the internet, we can all interpret the same sentence in a billion different ways. If we don't know these people personally or the whole story, it's easy to get the intent wrong.

Mom

MomtoAandZ,

I have and read your post and perhaps, I should clarify exactly why I am not the least bit offended. Well, first of all, you have to understand that Mel and I have talked extesively in the past about my drinking. I told her then, and I will tell you now, that I know exactly what I am. I have never defended it! There is no denial on my part. Been through this too many times to try and hide behind that hideous excuse.

If I were somehow in denial, perhaps you might somehow believe, that I might find offence at what Mel said to me. That is not the case. We both understand that. So the point of considering it a " is beyond question. We both understand this.

Mel's remark (and I know this much) were not meant as a rebuke, but rather, a correction to my own defiency.

I humbly, accept and appreciate that and her honesty when discussing such matters. It is much more valuable than blowing smoke at me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

That's my take and I wish you all blessings,
Jerry

Jeeezh....it's difficult to not be able to post during the daytime.

JERRY: thanks for clarifying and don't worry about the TJ....just hope things go well for you from NOW ON.


MEL: I still have tons of anger and while it may be normal (confirmed by our MC today) I will make every effort to get rid of it all so I can forgive totally. Still not sure about the 'forever angry at injustice of A' condition, but no need to go there again.

MOM, thanks for your insight, .....it was very helpful for me at least. So YOU as a FWW have anger towards your OM?! That is interesting, a perspective I never even considered when I started this thread.

While I appreciate your sensitivity to pain from the BS perspective, we're all in this together and other WSs may have similar anger issues they've stuffed all these years. Could it be the same anger I feel for the OPS who did not even have the courtesy to confirm he got the exposure packet? Oh well, their loss. I don't care anymore.

Mom, it seems that your H's perspective regarding 'revenge on OP by having your own good life and marraige' is a good route to take. I did not want revenge until the OW taunted me and the OPS rudely ignored me. Now, I do NOT care if they recover, in fact, at the moment, I hope her H has an A on her, too. Don't tell me to simmer down.....I have a right to be angry as it's only been 30 days today since we exposed to the OPS. Grrrrrrrrr! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Oh no need to explain! That was just my point...it's sometimes difficult to extrapolate meanings and intent from the written word, especially between people who you (meaning me or any reader) don't know well. Knowing your prior history as you've explained, it makes perfect sense.

I can see how the "innocent bystander" could take what was said in different ways. That happens around the MB forums all the time! I know I've said things to people, with absolutely no negative intent whatsoever and somehow (I felt) it was turned around as being something other than the words I put on paper (so to speak).

If it's this hard to get across meanings and for people to interpret communications clearly here, no wonder it's such a problem in marriages where emotions run even higher!

Not everyone can handle hearing the truth or hearing about their deficiencies...so you're ahead of the game right there!

We all need a good dose of brutal honesty now and then. Sugarcoating it does no one any good.

Mom

Just found out about D Day #4 from our first session telling our new/old MC about my FWH's affair.

MC says that the night I caught WH lying about his online activities 'just to see if he could resist her' was as strong an indication of his desire to contact her as it was after D day #1, #2, & #3.

Amazingly, FWH did not get angry, even though MC challenged his progress since Nov. 10, 2006.

But I'm not as angry as I am relieved that we have an MC who believes and agrees with all we are learning from MB and will help us both get beyond our 4 months (not 6 months) of intact NC.

MC said that FWH's INTENT and subsequent lies shows how much work we still have to do because withdrawal takes such a long time....if we don't recognize that, we will be in for a rude awakening with a D Day #5.

MC is helping me with my OP Anger as well....also calling it normal, but suggesting that by focusing energies on our M that such anger will and should subside. SHE IS A NOTHING....a non entity. Why continue to give her any control?

Thanks,
Ace

Ace,

Been quietly observing and think that this is a positive for you both. As long as you and H are working together along with a pro MB MC you will succeed.

I still think like I told you in my very first post to you it is all about action. Making life an open book to each other. No secrets. Just open and honest communication always. POJA on everything oetherwise it doesn't happen.

I know I'm a poor one to be saying much but continue to work toward the M you both want it to be. As long as you work together it can be attained.

As for me; Mel made some points in her posts that I have really thought about and puts my anger in a mch different perpective. I have been thinking for some reason that I need to just dump it and couldn't. Instead I now realize I can still feel the injustice of it all and will forever But I can now put it into perspective. I think now I no longer have to choose between loving my W and being angry at her actions in the past. I think I can now put her actions of the past where they belong. At least I am going to try.

So ever onward I JustKeepGoin.

Thankyou Mel.

Thankyou Ace.

Sounds like you have a pretty good MC. I agree that ow is a nothing.

It's funny, whenever I let my mind dwell on her (my ow) for even a minute, my life, my mood, my attitude towards H and my kids, my ability to be happy is all negatively affected. She brings me down, but only because I allow it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

However, when I erase all thoughts of ow as soon as they enter my mind and think about the blessings that I do have (2 awesome boys, a H who is working on our M because he chose ME, support from family and friends) my anger subsides immediately.

I am in control of my mind and I choose NOT to give up that control.

Dear Ace--

First things first, ANGER can be a catalyst for GOOD. And, I am of the belief that as long as you can USE your anger for POSITIVE outcomes, then it's OK to keep the anger "working for you." However, if the anger cripples you in any way, it may well do you good if you can find a way to make it "WORK" for you (*recycle the energy* of the anger).

Secondly, I think I am drawn to your threads because we *see* things in such a different light. For example, you question why OWH would not want to thank you (or possibly even converse with you)-- whereas, I can definitely see the advantages of WHY OWH would quite possibly never want to speak with you again...

Please allow me to try to explain by using the following quote--


Okay-- just to be clear: My H's OWH exposed the affair to me (and followed-up by providing details, tapes, letters, etc.) And, while the initial exposure was a godsend, I honestly felt no reason to specifically *thank* OWH for this information.

In all honesty, I "used" OWH for as much information as I could gather and/or squeeze out of him. And, once I felt as if he had *served his purpose,* I wanted absolutely nothing to do with either of them.

I don't think it's *fair* to assume that OWH has not taken the information you have supplied him with and somehow *used* it to his advantage.

OWH's opinion of me was to think that I had let my H off "scott-free"... that I had "bought" all of my H's lies... that I was gullible, and was being deceived into working on a marriage that could never be repaired... all because I was too dumb to "see the truth."

Awww, but the EXACT opposite was taking place in my household (only I wasn't sharing my "game plan" with the enemy. And, in this point in my recovery, I considered my enemies to be OW, OWH, and my own H).

You see, I was *working* an "undercover operation"... even if that operation was only playing out in my own mind. I was calculating EVERY move BEFORE making a move... I was weighing the pros/cons re: sharing info with OWH -vs- not sharing... I was definitely using what OWH was giving me in whatever way it would solely benefit ME.

Looking back, I was fighting a WAR-- and there was no way that I was giving up any secrets to the enemy camp (and definitely not offering up a THANK YOU).

So, I guess what I'm saying is this: We all do what we think will give us the BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME.

One thing's for sure, I'd bet that his decision not to contact you for more info-- or to say thanks-- has absolutely NOTHING to do with YOU (or how he feels about you personally)...

Maybe, just maybe, your OWH thinks *playing dumb* or *keeping mum* offers him the best possible outcome in HIS M with his W.

And, when you think of it in those terms-- isn't it kinda funny to get angry at OWH for doing what he feels is right for him and his M??

**so hoping this is helpful** If you need clarification, please, please ask (as I am definitely not coming from a place of anger on ANY of this!) *wink* ~Marie

JUST KEEP GOIN': Saw your post early this morning and it made my day.....well, at least until my H called! Sorry I could not tell you until tonight. Don't just try, JKG....just DO IT! Looking forward to your good reports.

***

INNER_STRENGTH: You make great points about how we choose our thoughts which, in turn, determines our frame of mind because WE allow it. Also, you're right, our H's did choose us so why waste energies on anger, which only gives the OW inadvertant control over our frame of mind! Thanks.

***

OHMY_MARIE: Welcome back! I am so honored that you said:



I appreciate your perspective so much (and the fact that you posted to this thread of your own volition). After I asked you, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Trigger Dumping thread before you left.

It's funny, though, how that thread could be related to this one by what you said about misplaced anger towards the OPS. I purposely did not tell him about his wife's phone sex with my H so I did not create triggers for him. And now I am(was) angry with myself because it's too late. The OW considered her special friendship with my H not an affair because they never met and only had phone sex, not physical sex.....and I'm sure he believes her lies, just like your OPS thought about you, Marie.

But like our MC said, her sins will find her out and the longer it takes, the more devastating it could be for them. But I've done my part and I need to just negate her....she is a nothing and the sooner I grasp that, the sooner I will be able to control my own thoughts and the destiny of my life and our marriage.

As for your war game plans, I only had a few expectations that did not materialize, mainly because not everyone is as curious as I am.....duhhhhhh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (I expected him to at least acknowledge the packet, but now I see your point about that illogical expectation.) And I stopped being curious when I realized that those dastardly details are what created my triggers.

Thanks for your insight, Marie and I hope to see more of your successful experiences on these boards.

Ace