I was wondering if I could get some advice as to how to proceed. I feel that our recovery is stuck in a rut, and I was wondering if you guys agreed with how I was going to approach it.

First of all a little background for those who aren’t familiar with my story: My WW and I have had some problems for a while. She is an LB queen and has been withholding SF for quite some time. Of course, I only made things worse by AOs, withdrawing, and meeting her ENs less and less. This past summer I was mentally done with the M, and I told her I was going to D her if she didn’t go to MC with me. We went to MC for a few weeks and nothing really improved (partly because I let it get to a point that I was done trying) and a few weeks later, she started having an EA with a coworker. I knew about the EA, but she insisted they were just friends, and he was leaving for Boston the following month. Well, he left, but things got worse. She wanted to go on a trip by herself, and I reluctantly agreed, so she secretly arranged for him to meet up with her. I found out, and foolishly moved out for 4 weeks (because she said that’s what she wanted – this was before I found MB by the way), and her EA became a PA on that trip. I was still in the dark, and I moved back in after she got back from her trip. Things were up and down after that, and she kept calling and texting him. She would say she wanted a D, but then would drop the subject for a week.

In early Nov., I found MB, exposed to everyone, and she swore she was going to D me. I overheard a conversation that she had with OM stating that she was going to save up her money, find another job in Boston, and the D me. To protect myself financially, I went to a quick plan D along with a pseudo PBL. Later that day after leaving me several messages, she agreed to NC with OM, but would not commit to our M. I told her NC with OM is all that I wanted for now, and that I’m sure the rest would come later. Well, since then there were two 20 minute calls on 11/28 and 12/16 from a payphone using a prepaid calling card that I found out about, a 20 minute NC call (according to her) on her cell phone to OM on 1/18 that she initiated herself and told me about (and some follow up TMs), a 20 minute call from her cell phone to OM partly to get some of her belongings sent back (which have never come), and a few TMs on 1/27 when she was drunk and hanging out with me. That was the last contact, and I can assure NC because OM lives 1000 mi away, and I have my WW spied on quite well.

I am just so frustrated because she continues to fail to commit to the M. She has said that she doesn’t want to be married, but isn’t sure that she should get D’ed and make a mistake. She will not go to MC, and says that reading self-help books is for weak-minded people. She says she cares about me and loves me (when I ask), but isn’t willing to do the things that wives should do. We have been spending lots of time together, but she refuses to kiss me or have SF with me. I has been 7 months since it has happened. She still has me do the honeydo list, and I take her places, and buy her nice things. She also goes out with her friends (one of which has a BF), but I’m not invited (I checked, they are all female except the one’s BF). She says it is awkward because they know that she would rather be D’ed. I feel that she is fence-sitting because she hasn’t had to commit to the M, but I still do all things a husband should do and meet all her ENs that she allows me to. She has some issues with men stemming from her parent's D that she needs resolved, but she doesn't "believe" in IC. I believe that if I forced her to make a decision, she would choose the M, but I don’t want to make any demands or ultimatums, especially since NC is in place. The last thing I want is to have her go running back to OM and talking to him daily again.

My plan is this: I am going to continue to plan A my WW for a definite period of time. If things still haven’t improved to my satisfaction (MC, SF, and more of an attempt), I will plan B her and make her move out of the house around Memorial Day. She will resist, but I think that I can get her to leave (actually, I don’t think she will leave, but agree to MC at that time). I will stay in plan B until Labor Day. If she doesn’t agree to my PBL conditions, I will file for D at that time. I will leave the possibility of reconciliation open until the D is final. After that, I will move on. That is not what, but I can’t live in a loveless M forever. I want to know what you think of my plan, and if you have any suggestions to prevent it from coming to that. I miss my W so much, it’s just so hard to lay next to her night after night and not make love to her or get a firm commitment to working on the M after I’ve fought so hard for so long. Thank you in advance for all of your support and insight.

Jim,

Just read your post. I am getting ready to leave work and will check back in tonight.

Praying for you, man.

Jim,

You just described the same exact problem I had for a few months back in the fall. You know my story - you were helping me out then.

There was no "magic" word or thing. All I can say is that I stayed with Plan A and one day my wife cracked under the pressure of plan A. There was NC, but it took a while for the EA effects to fade.

I will ask you the same question many people asked me at the time. Are you sure that there is NC? How about using a payphone with change? Calling OM during work hours?

I do think that there needs to be an end game plan to Plan A. Yours does sound pretty good. You two have no kids so that won't come in the way of Plan B.

How about others advise......

I can tell you what's brought me the greatest peace I've had to date in my much shorter journey Jimbo, and that was when I realized the brutal truth that my WW was lost to me. It won't be the first time we find an emotionally divorced wayward spouse in our twisted tales here.

So, what did that mean to me? That meant there was nothing more I could do that would push her further away, that I would have to WIN her back, and that I have to do a great deal of self-reflection on what my personal boundaries are.

I took my situation to Bob Pure, who led me to the realization in the first place, and looked at his story with new eyes. Bob, I hope you don't mind if I borrow some wisdom from you (if you are out there), but here is something I took from one of his posts on Loving Detachment:



I also learned something else from him, or more importantly, came to my OWN discovery that if I accepted crumbs from my wife I would be grateful for them forever. Your wife will give you as much as you will take Jim.

I've laid out my boundaries just enough that my wife has them memorized, and I told them to myself so many times often enough, loudly enough, that I firmly believe them.

1. I will not be a part of a marital triangle.
2. I will not be part of a marriage in which both partners are not transparent, open or honest with each other.
3. I will not tolerate disrespectful comments or actions
4. I will not tolerate a marriage in which my spouse's investment does not increase to a level which matches mine.
5. I will not remain long in a loveless marriage.

I meant every one of them. As much as her actions will speak louder than words to you, yours must do the same Jim.

Enforce and protect your boundaries without mention of consequences. They will make themselves apparent when you go to Plan B for YOU because your boundaries are not met. You can't make someone love you, or hold on to something that doesn't want to be held. You don't want your wife just to have SF with you. You want a wife who WANTS to have SF with you.

Your friend,

Jason

She sounds foggy, and I would be worried about the NC. How long have you been Plan A'ing? Can you keep doing it that long?

Jim,

Don't take this wrong because I have always enjoyed your directness, but you have always struck me as a very serious "get to business" kind of guy. Are you having any real light-hearted fun through your Plan A? Are you finding ways to really laugh together? Are you taking yourself too seriously? Are you making it more like a military logistical campaign? Are you thinking or remembering what it was like when you first met your W and how you acted in order to win her heart then?

Bear in mind, I am the guy living alone with a pending divorce in progress so my input should probably line a bird cage but you asked.


In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.
--Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Jim,

Withdrawal can go for weeks, even months. She has to give up the fantasy in order to make withdrawal complete. Only then does her heart have room for another.

Your plan sounds good, with finite timetables and all. If possible, take a week of work and travel together, just the two of you, which is the ideal circumstances under which to reconnect. If that won't work, consider a 3 day weekend, or more than one, if you can.

You might step up the ante just a bit and begin to challenge her to make efforts to re-engage, but this is risky, and difficult to do without Love Busters.

I'll remind you to speak no evil of the OM, and stay in Plan A, but add as much creativity to meeting her needs as possible. Be spontaneous and creative. Surprise her with enexpected flowers, dinners, concerts, live bands, bike rides whatever...you know what options you have at hand. Be less than predictable. Use the "shock and awe" theory in a romantic sense.

Hope that helps a bit...

SD

Hey Jim,
I know you are familiar with my story. My wife refused MC also. I asked her if she would try telephone counseling. I explained that we don't even have to leave the house. I think she was sort of against MC because she didn't want to be judged. The telephone counseling is much more informal. She agreed to the telephone counseling as you know. She was reluctant but gave it a shot anyway. Well, Jennifer put both of us at ease right away. It was amazing. The very next day my wife deleted all traces of OM on her own. It had to be her decision. Jennifer helped her understand somehow that it was what she needed to do. After all this time of trying to make her do it myself. Jennifer did it in an hour. The bonus is that Jennifer gets to be the "bad guy" or the teacher as she likes to be called. That leaves us no choice but to sit back and watch. We aren't perceived as "making" our wives do anything. We have another session scheduled for Sunday night. I can tell you after the first session I couldn't believe how much more thoughtful my wife was acting towards me and our marriage. I would suggest that you ask your wife about this approach to counseling.

It's expensive yeah, but worth every penny. My wife made a comment about the cost too. I said , " sweetie you are worth every penny". She liked that I think. Good luck Jim.

I would agree that MC has to be her idea - she has to want to be your "everything" before she will be. It's still a bit soon for that IMO.

The MB counseling would be a great idea if she'll participate.

Give me a call tonight Jim - I have some other ideas.

Hey Jim,

I like your plan.

I think you have been VERY patient.

I also think that your W ought to commit to IC as well as MC. She has always had a problem w/ sex. She needs to find out why. So that she can FIX that and enjoy her husband for crying out loud!

I wish you all the best!

~ Marsh

Okay, so she's been in NC for about a month (since 27 January)…you think. You can assure yourself there's been no physical contact because they're 1000 miles apart, I agree. But pardner, she can still be in contact by way of a secret cell phone or any of a myriad of other media. She may have "learned" new ways to communicate with him.

However, the real point is she's only been in NC for (at best) a month. I suggest to you it's too soon to be expecting her to have changed her mind. I wouldn't be expecting SF, relationship talk (or commitment), etc., at this point. In fact, you could be immersing yourself in Plan A activities -- making yourself the most attractive spouse you can be by making yourself the best man you can be.

Have you been jogging or working out? Have you read that classic book you've always meant to? Are you taking a class from the local community college in that subject you've always been interested in? Get the picture? You could be doing any number of things that serve dual purposes. First, they keep you occupied and you won't dwell so much on your situation, and (second) they make you into a better person and your WW can be attracted back to you.

Be courteous to her, but man, don't expect anything right now. She doesn’t have it to give. Set your boundaries, enforce them (politely), but save the relationship talk for later.

I hope you can hang in there, pardner. But if you've decided you cannot get over the betrayal, so be it. Every betrayed spouse has a God-given right to make that decision and you will find support for it here on MB, no matter what it is.

Good luck, JMW. We’re here with you.

Sounds like a good and solid plan to me Jim. Her refusal to go to IC and MC is not a good sign. It wreaks of "There is nothing wrong with me", "it's everyone else that has a problem", pride, selfishness, lacking remorse, unrepentant, and stubborn. All qualities that my now EX WW possesses.

I bet she is one those that rarely says "I am sorry" even though she knows she is wrong. What were/are her male role models?

Anyway your plan sounds good!

To clarify a couple of points that were stated previously, I am 99% sure that NC is in place. Her employer knows about the A (it started when she and OM were working there), and they have told her not to communicate to him from company property. It explains why she used a payphone and calling card previously. She never carries any cash (she is strictly a debit card kinda person), and I monitor all transactions as well (that's how I found out about the calling cards). A key logger goes without saying. I read the TMs when she claimed to tell OM no contact (and it seemed like closure stuff. I have also talked to her friend (one that she doesn't want me hanging out with), and she says that she is pretty sure that it is over. Apparently, my WW told her that, "it wasn't going to work out between them, anyway." Nice, I'm glad she "chose" me over him.

I would like to point out that we have been spending a lot of fun time together. We have gone to Mardi Gras in St. Louis, are going to a murder mystery dinner theater at a haunted mansion this weekend, we are going to a Blues game and event afterwards where we meet the players, and we have spent many weekends watching videos and the first two seasons of The Office on DVD. It goes well, but then at the end of the night when I go to kiss her, I get pushed away. I usually just let it slide and go to sleep.

I want to plan a vacation with her, but she doesn't want us to spend any money because we have an old house that needs some work. I just found out when it rains heavily we get water in our basement, there is a portion of the roof that needs replacing, and she wants me to install a new HVAC unit this year. I make twice as much as her (she got some good raises this year to close the gap somewhat), and I feel like I'm being used financially sometimes to provide her the lifestyle that she has become accustomed to without having to do the work of M or facing her problems and working on them. I feel completely taken for granted.

I am just feeling a little down today because my WW told me she felt uncomfortable with me around her friends because they know that she'd rather be divorced last night. I didn't let that comment slide and let her know that it was disrespectful and hurt my feelings. Her response was, "I thought you wanted me to be honest." Well, back to the grind.

If she has a secret cell phone, she could only keep it at work, and call him after work, but before she got home. That wouldn't make sense that she would call him from a payphone or on her cell phone if that were indeed the case.

Yes hopeandpray, that is exactly how my WW is. Nothing is wrong with her. She is COMPLETELY stubborn. Male role models? She hates men. Blames all her problems on them. Likes to read feminist literature. Refuses to go see her dad, even though he is dying. Men are the reason that it took her so long to get her career started (actually it was because she screwed around in college, only got an English degree, and didn't have a clue as to where to look for a job). Men are the reason she is trapped in a M now. Afterall, I told her I wanted to get M'ed by a certain time, or I was going to call off our engagement. She was "trapped" into marrying me.

Listen, we were best friends before we started dating, so I'm pretty sure that as long as there are no other men involved in her life, she will agree to my marital conditions and face her problems if I eventually go to plan B. I just wish it didn't have to come to that, and it's going to suck in the meantime.

Edit: Oh, and on the secret cell phone thing, someone else would have had to buy it for her because I check all our debit and credit card transactions.

Well then maybe you ought to consider moving up the date to begin your Plan B. I know you hate for it to come to this, but I see this as your best option.

She is every bit attached to you as you are to her.

She needs to realize that what she is treating so casually (You and her marriage) is actually pretty damned important to her.

A good dark Plan B will help her realize this.

~ Marsh

Jim,

Longhorn is right, it's been only a month of NC. I had to wait 4 months after NC started.

How can she just jump from the feelings that OM gave her and right back to you? It takes time. Time to morn the loss and move on. This is the part that was the hardest for me anyway - the waiting.

hang in there Jim.

Marsh, a couple of things:

There has been TRUE NC for only about 5 weeks now. There has only been about 75 minutes of phone conversations and about 10 TMs back and forth since 11/8, but I want to see if this NC can last. I also want to give TRUE NC some time to see if plan A will eventually work. Things have been continually improving, but just SO D*MN SLOWLY! Hopefully things improve exponentially from the time she truly gave up on OM. Secondly, I think plan B now will only just get her back talking to OM since there has only been NC for 5 weeks. I'd like there to be several more months in between so she doesn't just start calling OM again when she gets the PBL. However, if she breaks NC one more time, I think it is time for plan B.

You make good points. And I'll support you no matter which way you go.

She's told her GF that she wants to D you, and so she's uncomfortable w/ you around them? Why?

Do you know?

What exactly was her point in telling you this? Did she just want to share her feelings w/ you? Or did she want you to do something about it?

~ Marsh

My guess is that she's uncomfortable that they know about her A, and I'm sure she justified her A to them by saying we were done already. I am also pretty sure that if they saw us together and saw how good I was to her throughout this whole mess, they'd call her out on the carpet. She doesn't want to be around my friends and doesn't want me to be around hers. I think she's just really embarrassed that everyone knows, and me in front of her friends is a constant reminder.

So does this mean you stay away from her when she's out w/ her friends? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

~ Marsh