Does the library have a book club?

I think i heard that Barnes and Noble has info and can hook you up w/ different book clubs.

Hi Hold, I'm not sure what town you're in, but Borders and Barnes and Noble usually have book clubs. Just look on the bulletin board they usually have near the cafe and restrooms.

The library is also a good idea.

Shoot, I got confused and missed the garden club meeting. Thought it was tonight, but it was Tuesday. Oh well, probably for the best as a group of women is not safe for me.

Mrs. Hold called earlier. The tv in the living room fell out of the cabinet. It is trashed. We'll have to see how the floor is. Funny, Mrs. Hold was more concerned about the floor. I was more concerned about the tv. I mentioned that. She said "well, I am concerned about the floor because I know you'll buy a new tv but I don't know what we'll do abut the floor." I said "and I'm worried about the tv because we have to replace that whereas unless the floor is broken another scuff is no big deal." She said "I hate that our house is falling apart and there is nothing we can do about it." I said "well, we can do something if there is something else you are willing to give up. Summer camp. Going out to restaurants. Is there anything that you are willing to give up to get new floors in the living room?" She said "this conversation is not working for me". And hung up.

The last few years we have bought a new dishwasher. New furnace. New well pump. New water softener. New clothes washer and dryer. I bought parts and rewired the cooktop so all 5 heating elements work. And we had our bedroom and computer room painted. I understand our house could use some freshening up. But it isn't exactly falling apart (knocks on wood, head, and anything else within reach).

Am I supposed to feel bad about what I said? Am I supposed to feel guilty that she hung up on me? I feel more insulted than regretful. Reality check please.

Hi Hold.

Well, I generally like when you're assertive, but you know... you don't have to take advantage of EVERY opportunity to negotiate with your wife.

Sometimes you could try just sympathizing with her as you might someone else (unrelated to you and with whom you have very little history).

I mean, you certainly understand her point, right? Even if you don't agree--can you see what she is saying? She wishes she could buy whatever she wants whenever she wants... a ridiculous desire to me personally, but hey! I'm not her.

Anyway, you understand what she wants. You understand she's not getting it. You should certainly strive to negotiate with her in the right moment--but maybe not all the time.

Just sympathize sometimes, and if the conversation begins to annoy YOU, then you can end it.

(((HOld))))
PS. Smart move about the garden class. Probably not the best idea right now. You're sort of in a self-empowering state, and could have a little too much fun with the women. (LOL)

Well, apparently the tv fell because D10 was playing Dance Dance Revolution on the PS2. The vibration caused the tv to slide off the shelf. The bad news is that the tv is trashed. The good news is that the dance pad seems to have cushioned the blow, so the floor is OK. Phew. I was not looking forward to sanding and varnishing the floor, or trying to find a replacement floor board to match our 30 year old wood floor if the existing board were cracked.

And I have to make sure that D10 doesn't feel bad, because DDR is good exercise for her so I don't want her to feel she shouldn't play it again. Hmmm, have to see how we can secure the next tv into the cabinet.

Telly
Yeah, I should have been more sympathetic. I did start by saying "yes, I do care about the floor. And I do care about how our house looks. I wish we had more money so we could fix the things you don't like about our house."

As usual, when she kept baiting me with "our house is a dump and you don't care", I took the bait. Maybe some day I will learn to resist taking the bait. The betting pool on when is now open.

Man, next time screw or glue the TV on there or something! Wow!

Amazingly, the tv still works! The housing around the "guts" was made of particle board. Some of the particle board fell off. But the tube is intact and when I plugged the power cord back in the tv turned on. A little black paint on the remaining particle board and it will be good to go. Unbelievable!

Mrs. Hold is bummed because she thought we were going to get a high-def tv.

She was cordial when I got home. No attempt to send me to the doghouse for pissing her off earlier. That is a huge difference in our relationship. Since I have started standing up for myself and walking away when she rants, she calms down after exploding. That makes staying with her easier.

Maybe she knocked off the TV her self so you would have to buy a high def TV........hmmmm. Next she will burn down the house so you will have to buy a new house! LOL!

Good going standing up to her!

Tell her to either make more money if she wants a different TV and buy it herself or meet another man and marry him who will be rich and give her an unlimited flow of money to spend! Like a king, Donald Trump type, or a sheik.

Now now Stella, do not leap to conclusions. And don't badmouth Mrs. Hold. She wasn't even home when the tv fell. She was still at work on one of her last days at the doctor's office. D10's jumping on the dance pad caused the tv to slip off the shelf. I am just happy that D10 jumped out of the way and was not injured when the large heavy tv fell toward her. THAT is the most important thing. The tv is just a material object.

Hold,

personally, I think you handled the situation concerning the floor and TV wonderfully.

It showed assertiveness on your part, and honestly didn't give in to her whimpering and guilt tripping which is a HUGE step forward!!!

And in that she hung up and didn't continue trying nor did she continue to make you 'pay' when you got home THAT is HUGE on her part as well.

She is now beggining to see she has to make changes, granted they are slow in coming, but they are coming..she's seeing your not just going to give in as you have in the past, nor are you going to wallow at her feet trying to make up for upseting her like you have in the past!! In other words she's realizing her past behavior is no longer working...so she HAS to learn a new way of communicating...

Of course the conversation wasn't 'working for her' (I actually laughed when I read that, as it shows how spoiled she's been) because she wasn't getting her way...I was actually reminded of my step-daughter (14) who begs and pleads and cries to get her way..and as her mother has learned to stand up and SAY NO and not just give in..my step-daughter gets this "This isn't working for me" attitude and walks away..but it hasn't stopped her from trying to go back later and try the crying and begging and soforth to get her way...but she is learning slowly...It's not working anymore..

She's tried that with her dad and I as well, but IT doesn't work with us..she was trying to play her mom against her dad whenever dad said No, mom would give in to feel like the 'better' more caring parent, when in reality it wasn't loving her daughter at all. It was letting her do whatever she wanted...and it got to the point mom couldn't handle it and my step-daughter moved back in w/ us...she keeps begging her mom to let her move back in with her, but it's not working, mom isn't giving in..she's even got herself in counseling to get herself help. She doesn't like it here because we have rules and boundaries..and she's not used to that, she's used to getting what she wants when she wants it..so now she's having to learn a new way of communicating and that the world doesn't just give her whatever she wants when she wants it..as well...and she will hopefully learn that before she is an adult.

If she doesn't, I will feel obligated to inform whoever plans to marry her what to expect, so that he can decide based on ALL the information if he wants to take that on or not...(don't you wish someone would have warned you???) Not that you would have listened, but at least then you would have had the information...

warped thinking on your part HOLD. . . you may have expended evergy, true, however, you most likely were not expending it in the correct manner that would make the most impact on your W. you have given up on the old ways, TRUE, but now you have new ways, WHICH the marriage counseling fostered, you just don't realize the long lag time between learning what is needed, and actually implemented what is needed, and then getting the results that are wanted. . .

This type of short term thinking is way too pervasive in our society today, expecting current, immediate, take your medicine and you will be better, benefits as compared to learning to live life life along the road less travelled, which is much longer term oriented, not short term results oriented, which is taughted by quality professionals, both in educaiton and in counseling. . .

HOLD, you have learned what doesn't work because of the incorrect focus, on the marriage instead of on you, through trial and error, GREAT! so now you have changed to the correct focus, and your results are starting to work. . . if you were to stand back and integrate what you learned in counseling, I think that you will discover that you are doing what the counseling wanted you to do, but in counseling, you were focused on the short term and the relationship, now you are focused on making the foundation more solid, and the relationship has a change to be stable. . .

part of the problem with being a lawyer, success is measured by billable hours and closing agreements. . . getting two parties to agree. . . very short term focused with objective goals. . . treating marriage the same way doesn't work, because there is no end agreement with a bill to present, its ongoing negotiations with little short term payoff. . . so now you are focuing on changing the short term focus from lawyer like negotiations with your wife, to long term, hard core work on living the road less travelled, where there are less regrets, less frustrations, and longer term rewards. .

i have always supported your tough stance against your W's selfishness. . . had i understood all this a long time ago, I would have followed through on ending my marriage first, before kids, and not listened to someone who talked me out of it. . . once you have kids, its too late. .

wiftty

wiffty

I agree that I had the wrong focus before. And that I suffered from short term thinking.

But I don't agree that I am now focused on the correct things. I am not trying to improve myself. I am merely working up the nerve to leave. I don't believe I will improve myself while I remain married to Mrs. Hold. And that belief is self-fulfilling. More warped thinking.

I agree with the wish that I had known these things before we had kids together. And that once you have kids it is too late.

Yesterday was my birthday. Mrs. Hold got us tickets to a show. The kids liked the show. We had fun. It was a good activity for a very rainy day.

Of course, no sex. But that was for the best. If Mrs. Hold had offered, I was going to turn her down. Not sure whether I was going to tell her I was done accepting lousy sex. Or that I want to be able to talk about sex before we have sex. Or that I no longer find her physically attractive. Or just tell her I wasn't in the mood. She rolled toward me early in the morning. I rolled toward her, let her put her arm around me, and then went back to sleep.

My turn to the dark side is complete.

Mrs. Hold called for her daily noon check in. I thanked her for planning a pleasant birthday celebration. She apologized for not making it more special for me. I lied to her. I told her not to worry about it, it isn't a big deal.

Glass half full. She knows what we did not do. She regrets not doing it.

Glass almost empty. I don't care what she knows, or regrets.

And I am willing to be reciprocal. If she says she doesn't care that I know how much material objects mean to her, and I regret not being able to provide them. And she only cares whether or not I provide them. I think that is fair.

I am not obliged to provide material objects any more or less than she is obliged to provide sex. And vice versa. But our marriage probably won't survive our mutual inability / unwillingness to provide what the other desires. Tragic. But real.

You know your marriage is in terrible shape when your resentment over not having sex on your birthday pales in comparison to your resentment over not being given the opportunity to reject your spouse's offer of birthday sex.

Guess there probably aren't many Sith Lords hanging out here for me to apprentice myself to.

I listened to an interview with a biographer of Edith Wharton, an author I haven't read but I think I should. A sentence reminded me of your situation - it was about a woman making a good marriage and the difference between 5th ave. - women's world and Wall st. - men's world. "Men made the money, women spent it" that is a quote from the interview. The author talked about this being the philosophy 70-80 years ago. Seems like your wife, and you too still subscribe to this.

If trying to improve your life is working up the nerve to leave, then you have the correct focus, yourself. . . my point is that since you are working on the correct focus, your marriage has a chance. . . What i am saying is that you are adding time spent unfocused with time spent focused and then deciding that you are done because of the length of time.. . .What I hoped that you are doing is spending time focused on yourself, and dragging the marriage along with you into better shape. . . but you have only been focused on yourself for a short time. . and it is having a positive impact, so while you are having a positive impact, you are contemplating leaving. . .

vicious negative feedback loop. . . . .

more later.

?????

You've really just started implementing the changes the counselors suggested (taking your focus OFF the marriage and her) and things are begining to change..

your no longer focused on sex all the time and what your not getting...and she's begining to reach out to you more...

In other words, since your no longer pursuing her..she's pursuing you..still not in all the areas you'd like...but she is starting too..she's trying to reconnect..and your not rushing to do so, like you always have in the past and she's scared...

I guess it is possible in time she will woo me back. As Shakepeare said: "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

I wish I were more sane. I remain quite focused on sex. Just not focused on having sex with her. She is correct to be scared. I warned her often not to push me to this point.

I am heartened that so many of you see this as a positive development. To me it feels like an admission of defeat. There is nothing I can and will do to save my marriage. But maybe this is the "step" where I admit my powerlessness. And hence a "good thing". We shall see.

Mrs. Hold continues to complain about how unhappy she is. I ask if there is anything I can do to help. She says no. I am relieved.

She is unhappy about her weight. She went to a house party last night. It was for selling clothes. She was the heaviest woman there, and few of the items were flattering on her. She complained, but she says she is unwilling to do anything about eating / health / fitness.

See, we are well matched.

I wish I could find some compassion for her. She would probably accept my support more easily if she thought I really cared about her feelings. Since I want her to lose weight and become fit, anything I could do to help her would be in my own interest. Man, this inability to forgive her really twists me around.