What a combination she is:

Heavy, mean, complaining, full of intertia, good eater, unhappy, demanding, thieving, craving money, cold to you.

WOW...

Next time she complains how unhappy she is ask "how you can help get a divorce started!"

You only paid for 12 years of counseling and she would never try or do the homework and wasted the expensive sessions. What more can you do but protect yourself from her bad moods, her neglect of you, and her abuse.

Luckily you have protected yourself pretty well financially from her tentacles. And she is getting more independent getting a job. Those are good steps. If only you did not have to actually live with her....,

And she would be correct, so it's good she recognizes there is nothing YOU can do to help her feel happy.


Well, if she is unwilling TO DO anything to make herself feel better, other than continue to ask you to buy her superficial things to continue to mask the feelings, that is her issue, and one you are actually helping her to address whether you realize it or not. You are no longer giving into purchasing the mask's of deception. The lies of "If I just had this I'd feel better" well, yes, she would feel better for a little bit, but not long term. Again, I am reminded of Ecclesiates, and the wisdom taught within the passages, where it is not 'things' that make one happy, but relationship with God that truly brings one happiness and contentment.



I'm curious, how do you get that you are well matched by the fact that SHE is unwilling to make changes, when you are willing to make changes?


The problem is not that you don't have any compassion for your wife, you do, and it comes through in your posts, the problem is in the fact she doesn't see it as that, she only see's your not giving into her whims.

Sometimes the most loving and compassionate thing you can do for another person is tell them NO!! and not give into their whims and desires, that bring destruction to the soul.

Last night I got home and Mrs. Hold was on the computer buyer a Mother's Day gift for her Mom. I kissed the kids and got them started on showering. Then I went downstairs to play PS3. A little later a work colleague called to make sure we had finished a project that needed to get out the door. I assured him we had, then put the kids to bed. Then I joined Mrs. Hold in our bedroom. I asked her if she had any "scoop" to discuss. She said "how can you ask me that at 10:20 when I have been here all night?" I asked her if there was anything she wanted to discuss. She said "not now". I left to monitor an Ebay auction for the women's sneakers my son is going to wear on the charity walk next week.

This morning I told Mrs. Hold that if she wants mroe interaction between us, all she has to do is ask. She rolled her eyes.

I spent 12 years chasing her. 12 years kissing her @ss. 12 years being the puppy dog napping at her heels. I am not going to chase her now. If she chooses to withdraw rather than engage me, well, I guess we won't have much interaction. Not a great way to run a marriage. But perhaps preferable to any alternative that either of us is willing to pursue.

If this continues, I may have to accelerate my timetable. Six or eight more years is an awfully long time.

Hold,

It's been a while since I made you mad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tell me again why you guys don't cook, feed, listen to prayers, put the kids down together? Did you ever? Ick....nasty pattern....hard to break. If you spent 12 years kissing her @ss...how come you're mad a HER about it? You see, for 12 years, your idea of "chasing her" or "interacting" with her....was to "pamper", patronize her and let her put her feet up while you took over the nightly duties. That dynamic hasn't changed and she's still sitting back expecting the same thing. She still curls up with the TV and you still take care of the kids and then immerse yourself in mindless electronic pursuits. She needs to get out of the bedroom. You need to get off of the gaming/computers....and y'all need to be a family. Without mom....your family isn't whole....and your kids are being robbed.

Don't pamper her.

Engage her...invite her....involve her.

And if she rejects you and the kids....then she can't blameshift.


Truthfully....people don't ask for this stuff....it's like asking somebody to tell you "happy birthday" (Happy belated by the way!). Next time consider losing the defensiveness and say "Shoot....I wish I known you wanted my company. I need to buy you a 'flag' to send up. *wink*" Then sashay out the door. You might need to practice that "sashay"....but it goes right along with your new confidence.

Thank you for writing. You know I always like to hear from you.


Doubt you are going to make me made this time.


I don't get home in time for the early stuff. Yes, that is my fault. No, I am not going to change. She checks out for the late stuff. Once I get home, she collapses into bed and I am on duty for the rest of the night. Has always been this way.


Agreed.


I am mad at myself. That is why I won't do it any more.


If I don't get home earlier, and we don't cut back on the kids' evening activities, there is no time during the week to be a family. Most nights I stay at work until I pick up S12 from one activity or another around 8:00 pm. By the time we get home, there is just enough time to give him a snack and get the kids showered and ready for bed. Yes, we are all being robbed of family time. I don't see us making different choices.

That is the great tragedy here. I spend so many hours at the office but don't make any progress at work. THAT is what I need to fix. Not my marriage. That is a lost cause. And brings out the worst in both of us.


I don't pamper her by buying her things any more. I do "pamper" her by ignoring her choice to be so immobile. I don't see myself changing that.


Yes, that is what I should do if I want to rebuild my marriage. At this point, I don't have any enthusiasm for inviting her. I invited her on the annual Memorial Day camping trip with the kids. I am hoping she decides NOT to come. I am sure she can sense that.

The kids are going to sleep away camp for 4 weeks this summer. Mrs. Hold wishes we would go away somewhere just the 2 of us. Even as I acknowledge that she was more fun and more sexually available the last 2 times the kids went away, I have no interest in spending time alone with her. I know UA is what we need to rebuild our marriage. But it is too painful when we get along without the kids and then fall back into old patterns when the kids return. If I let myself enjoy being with her, the subsequent rejection is excruciating.

Yes, I understand that getting along alone and then NOT falling back into old habits would be an alternative solution. No, it is not one I am willing to risk pain to obtain.


I don't care who she blames. I am not accepting any blame for last night. If she wants me, she knows where to find me. If she wants to stew that I prefer video games to being with her, let he stew. She knows what she needs to do to get me to drop the video games. If she doesn't feel like doing those things, she can lie in bed fuming. I am done accepting blame for what she thinks and feels. There is more than enough blame for me to accept for what I do (and don't do). I don't have any room left for her stuff.


Of course they do. "I am going to watch 'Law & Order', want to join me?" "I spoke to the florist for the party, want to know what we discussed?" She asks me to engage when she is motivated to do so. What she doesn't like is feeling obligated to reciprocate if she asks me to engage and I say yes. She wants me to ask, so she doesn't feel guilty if she says no when I ask for something. Well, too bad. I am done asking. And she should feel guilty for rejecting me so often.


I don't have any new confidence. I have more and more anger. And a greater willingness to accept the reality that eventually we are getting divorced. The more I think about divorce, the less willing I am to lift a finger for her. In my traditional dysfunctional manner, I am passive-aggressively sabotaging what I don't like to bring about a result that I don't have the guts to choose directly. I want out. I am arranging things so I get out. I'm just not doing it in an adult manner.

I know that what you suggest would be best for me. And best for my kids. They deserve a father who is functional and fulfilled. Even if he isn't married to their mother. I wish I had the confidence / courage to permit myself to become that person.

I hate who I am. I don't see myself changing while I stay married to Mrs. Hold. Because I don't see me ever forgiving myself for permitting the things I permitted. And I don't see myself ever forgiving her for the choices she made. Every time I look at her, I am reminded of my shortcomings. I understand that is within my own head. I don't see any way to get it out of my head while we stay married.

I need to add lots of core value before I am ready to engage with Mrs. Hold. Being with her does NOT add core value for me. Engaging now is NOT going to produce a helpful result.

Star*fish, do I in any way remind you of the person who arrived here 5 years ago? Would you say that anything in the tone or content of my writings here has gotten better in the 5 years since you "met" me? My sense of humor is gone. My sense of hope is gone. And my confidence is further into the toilet. I need to get all of that back. I don't like the person I have become. I have convinced myself that the only way to get it back is to get away from Mrs. Hold. That may not be literally true. But it become self-fulfilling. I don't know how to get off this track. I may have to ride it to the end.

Wednesday night I went to dinner with 3 associates from my firm. We had a great time. Tonight I am going for cocktails with various attorneys from my firm. I know I need to add more fun into my life. I am going to add it. I am just not going to add it through activities that involve my wife.

Yes, I understand what that says about the odds of my marriage recovering. And yes, I realize how pointless that makes my continued participation here at MB.

Hold



I know you've answered this before, but for the life of me I can't remember what you're answer was. I hope you won't mind me asking again:

Why is it you won't divorce Mrs. Hold now?



I've only been around here for a couple of years, so I wouldn't have known how much you've changed if you hadn't written this. Although, I have seen your sense of humor shine through on some of your responses to myself and others. But it is so not good if you truly have changed this much, for the worse, because of your M.

I don't normally promote divorce, but I have to say in your case, its seems like the best alternative for you and in your children. A broken home is never easy for kids. But I can say from experience that my kids are so much better off now with a whole and happier mom than they were with the wreck of a shell I was while married to their father. I've looked back over family videos of "before" and "after" , they are proof positive that I made the right decision for the 4 of us. The difference was literally night and day.

I know every sitch, every person is different. But I like you, Hold, and I SO hate to see you living in such torment and misery, when you don't have to.

Hugs and best wishes
Tama

Hold,

Star*fish, do I in any way remind you of the person who arrived here 5 years ago?

No chere.....I agree you're far more depressed and I admit that I find it disheartening as your friend.

Would you say that anything in the tone or content of my writings here has gotten better in the 5 years since you "met" me?

Well.....yes, I DO think some things have gotten better. I think you're willing to take less carp and that's not necessarily a bad thing.....just a bad thing the way you're using it.

My sense of humor is gone.

It's just sleeping.

My sense of hope is gone.

You're hoping for failure....and while that's a convoluted way to plan for success....I do understand it.

And my confidence is further into the toilet.

This....I don't believe. Your confidence in your marriage has gone down....way....way down....but I actually think your personal confidence has improved. You now know you can live without ms H.

I need to get all of that back.

It's not gone Hold...it's just being used perhaps towards destructive purpose.

I don't like the person I have become.

I still like you....and I'm not alone.

I have convinced myself that the only way to get it back is to get away from Mrs. Hold.

Maybe it is. And maybe it isn't. But if you leave on these terms, I'm scared you'll never know.

That may not be literally true. But it become self-fulfilling. I don't know how to get off this track. I may have to ride it to the end.

This probably feels like a runaway train....but great power often comes from great adversity. And as Spider says (well his uncle) "With great power comes great responsibility". That may sound strange when you feel so powerless....but nobody learns to appreciate anything from privilege....we learn to appreciate from famine.

You're in my prayers, Hold.

It is gone when I am around Mrs. Hold. My sense of humor was one of the things she liked about me. She misses it. These days if I am funny when around her, it is sarcastic and cutting. So I try not to be funny in her presence.


Yes, I am. And I am not planning for success. I can't imagine success. I am hoping for freedom so I can regain the ability to hope for success.


I know no such thing. If I knew I could live without Mrs. Hold, I would be divorced. It is precisely because I fear I can't that I stay.


Trust me, it is gone. Maybe hiding. But unavailable to me. I am talking about work. I used to be smart. Have a good memory. Understand things quickly. Now I am mediocre. Maybe I set the bar high. But years ago I felt as smart as all these other smart people. Now I can't keep facts or rules of law straight in my head. I WISH my personal confidence were improved. I am still in a position at work to succeed. There are opportunities available to me in the next few months to make significant progress toward my professional goals. I feel a decided lack of confidence in my ability to take advantage of these opportunities. I can see the door slowly creaking closed. There is plenty of time for me to dash through before it closes. But it feels as if my feet are mired in concrete. I cannot describe the despair I feel every day when I leave the office, having NOT accomplished what I need to do.


I agree. There will always be what might have been. But even if my life remains unfulfilling, I don't think I will regret not giving it another chance with Mrs. Hold. I will more likely regret not leaving sooner.


But to appreciate love and tenderness, I will have to receive some. And I am not going to get any from Mrs. Hold. Not because she is incapable of providing it. Rather because I am not going to behave in a way that would enable her to feel safe enough to offer them.

That is why we are so toxic for one another. She needs safety. I WILL NOT provide it. Not after all this time. That would require a level of forgiveness that I do not have it in me to offer. To her. Or to me. My pride dictates that I leave her. I feel she owes me. So much that she can never repay me. And I will hold it over her to the end. If I am not willing to forgive her that debt. Then staying is mere cruelty.

I remember when I first got here 5 years ago. The big issue was our vacation. I didn't know what to expect. I was hoping for a great trip together. I was disappointed when sex did not happen.

Now I am not even willing to GO on vacation with her. I am so pessimistic about our relationship that I won't spend time alone with her.

In the past, we did not have sex when we were alone together, and I still had hope our marriage could be saved. Now, we had sex several times when the kids were away, and I am convinced our marriage can NOT be saved. That change is in my head. And dooms our marriage.

Argh, I can't wait for 6:00 and cocktail hour to begin. Oh good, now I have moved on from using computer games to medicate my depression to using alcohol to medicate my depression. Nice job counsellor!

Hold,


It is gone when I am around Mrs. Hold. My sense of humor was one of the things she liked about me. She misses it. These days if I am funny when around her, it is sarcastic and cutting. So I try not to be funny in her presence.

Okay, but you're consciously suppressing your sense of humor....not because you don't have one....but because you know you'll use it to hurt her. That's a reasonable kind thing to do.

Quote:
You're hoping for failure....and while that's a convoluted way to plan for success....I do understand it.

Yes, I am. And I am not planning for success. I can't imagine success. I am hoping for freedom so I can regain the ability to hope for success.

Yes....but if even if you're free from Ms H....you're still <you>. Liking yourself NOW means liking yourself when you are free....so even if freedom to hope is your goal....it's worth making personal strides NOW.

Quote:
This....I don't believe. Your confidence in your marriage has gone down....way....way down....but I actually think your personal confidence has improved. You now know you can live without ms H.

I know no such thing. If I knew I could live without Mrs. Hold, I would be divorced. It is precisely because I fear I can't that I stay.

Look....I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you're afraid she can't live without YOU....you're dying to live without HER.

Quote:
It's not gone Hold...it's just being used perhaps towards destructive purpose.

Trust me, it is gone. Maybe hiding. But unavailable to me. I am talking about work. I used to be smart. Have a good memory. Understand things quickly. Now I am mediocre. Maybe I set the bar high. But years ago I felt as smart as all these other smart people. Now I can't keep facts or rules of law straight in my head. I WISH my personal confidence were improved. I am still in a position at work to succeed. There are opportunities available to me in the next few months to make significant progress toward my professional goals. I feel a decided lack of confidence in my ability to take advantage of these opportunities. I can see the door slowly creaking closed. There is plenty of time for me to dash through before it closes. But it feels as if my feet are mired in concrete. I cannot describe the despair I feel every day when I leave the office, having NOT accomplished what I need to do.

"Unavailable" at this time....okay....I can buy that. So what do you think governs "availability"? You probably can't even wrap your mind around that question in the state of your despair.....but the lack of availability is the product of despair....not the other way around I think.

Hold.....I'm going to skip any compliments....they just frustrate you when you're where you are right now. Your intelligence has not gone down....your stress level has gone UP. There ARE opportunities....please reach out and grab them. Slip through the crack in the door.

Quote:
Maybe it is. And maybe it isn't. But if you leave on these terms, I'm scared you'll never know.



I agree. There will always be what might have been. But even if my life remains unfulfilling, I don't think I will regret not giving it another chance with Mrs. Hold. I will more likely regret not leaving sooner.

I suspect the same thing....but we could both be wrong. You may not know what's good about your life until you're gone.....OR....you may find the freedom to seek more.

Quote:
nobody learns to appreciate anything from privilege....we learn to appreciate from famine.

But to appreciate love and tenderness, I will have to receive some. And I am not going to get any from Mrs. Hold. Not because she is incapable of providing it. Rather because I am not going to behave in a way that would enable her to feel safe enough to offer them.

I know. There's alot you "won't" do at this point. So what is the plan? Have you made progress towards leaving? Being able to support two households. I'm not telling you to remain trapped in a loveless environment....however, to get "untrapped" and get free....you have to do practically the same things.

That is why we are so toxic for one another. She needs safety. I WILL NOT provide it. Not after all this time. That would require a level of forgiveness that I do not have it in me to offer. To her. Or to me. My pride dictates that I leave her. I feel she owes me. So much that she can never repay me. And I will hold it over her to the end. If I am not willing to forgive her that debt. Then staying is mere cruelty.

Agreed. It is cruel to stay in your present state of mind. So again....where are you in your quest for freedom? Ms H doesn't offer enough for you to stay, but the idea of freedom doesn't offer enough to leave (because you have no field of reference to prove you can do better). That leaves you with paralyzation ....OR.....continuing to make the small steps towards freedom that you seem to be taking.

I know how you are.....it bugs you if I offer rainbows or sunshine when you feel so low. You don't even want me to comment on any of your good and decent qualities or any hope that I might see....so I won't.

Let me just say this:

I'm reading your words Hold. Lots of us care about you and if you disappeared....we would notice. You're not insignificant. You're not invisible. Your needs matter and you deserve to be happy. If your situation is hopeless....then I'll pray for hope instead of doing something stupid like trying to convince you there IS hope.

star*

Thank you all.

It is a tribute to the reservoir of goodwill that I built here that no one has suggested that my plan is to do something foolish and unethical. No one has suggested "Hold, maybe going out to bars after work drinking with young associates is not the best idea in your current frame of mind". So for those of you who didn't want to insult me by suggesting anything untoward, I saved you the trouble.

"She needs safety"

What exactly does this mean? Could you please explain?

Hi Hold,

Since I think you missed your happy belated birthday thread (bummer!), I will say it again here. Happy belated birthday.

I just wanted to tell you that I know you feel like your sense of humor is gone, but sometimes I almost laugh out loud at your comments--even if it's at a completely inappropriate time. And I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing because your turn of phrase is decidedly funny.

So, for what it's worth, I think you are extremely witty... and a whole host of other great things that I will not go into right now.

Suffice to say that Star*fish is right. You have lots of friends here, and we care about you a lot.

(((Hold)))

Yeah, what Telly said - your sense of humour has changed a bit, turned a bit more acerbic, but it is still there.

I've been reading your posts for years and I do see a difference. I got hooked on them because I saw so many similarities between your marriage and ours (not totally but a lot) and I thought you would give me insight into my husband's thinking. You and he are both smart, but you talk more.

But, I don't think that he ever thought or I ever thought that either of us had done so much damage that it could never be repaid. That is bankruptcy (sp?). Are you and/or she emotionally bankrupt? Kind of sounds like it.

"She needs safety"


(Asked and answered!)

OK, like in a trial, I asked what this meant and I will try and guess and answer this and decipher what I think you, Mr Hold mean to say here.
~~

~~I really believe this issue is one big key for you and your wife that could lead to a better marriage.~

Mr Hold, is this what you are saying here...? that YOU can and should GIVE your wife "safety" somehow? But that at this time you are not willing to do it or are unable to give her the safety she wants and needs right now?

If this is what you are saying let me contradict you and say that I believe that Mrs Hold cannot ever feel safe unless it comes from her inner self.....thru inner healing.

I really believe that no matter what you do or say, how hard you work, how much money you bring home, how high up on the totem pole of life you go, how much you pamper her or buy her stuff,,,Mr Hold..... YOU .......cannot give your wife this type of SAFETY that you think (and she thinks and feels) that she needs, wants and desires.

(Money wont make her feel safe even though she may believe it will.

(Vacation trips wont make her feel safer

(Jewelry wont make her feel any safer

(Better social status wont make her feel any safer

(Better hair, nails, or clothing wont make her feel safer

(No matter how much better you treat her she will not feel any safer than she feels now

(If you act as her whipping boy or try and please her all the time, this act or "fact" wont make her feel any safer in any way,

(A Better home won't make her feel any safer

NONE OF THE ABOVE AND NOTHING AT ALL YOU COULD DO COULD EVER BRING A SENSE OF SAFETY TO HER! (Remember you have tried for years)

Soo....I believe there is NOTHING on earth you can do to help make your wife feel safer. But there are things she can do for herself to heal deep inside and allow herself to express her own inner pain and then.....then....she will feel SAFE all the time in her marriage and life. Alone or with you or others she will then always feel SAFE!

Here is something she has not tried yet:

http://www.emotionaltoolkit.com/etk/powerskills.shtml

Read especially the "emotional writing" part. This is deeper than journaling. and can get at root issues. It could really help you also. I read about "emotional writing" on a cancer treatment board. You write deeply and intensely about things that caused you severe trauma. It has been found that doing this for a week writing about past traumas to you, really gets down to the pain and aids in healing. People sleep better, thier whole lives are better. I know she would feel a normal sense of SAFETY in LIFE and MARRIAGE if she could work down to her inner hurts. And YOU might feel SAFE in life too if you did this self-therapy. It costs nothing but a pen, paper, and time and may help a LOT!

I really feel that YOU cannot help your wife! Only SHE can help herself. And YOU can help yourself.

If you keep thinking that somehow you are lacking in that you SHOULD be able to give your wife (that illusive "something") and what she wants and needs you are WRONG>

Because what she really really really needs is what you cannot give her though you might try and try to give it to her. She may even think YOU CAN give her what she needs! She is even maybe WAITING for someone, like YOU to give her what is lacking within HERSELF!

What she REALLY needs is an inner sense of safety within her own heart, soul, spirit and her self.

Without this deep inner change.... that only she can do, she will never never feel safe in life or in the marriage no matter what else happens between you two.

So YOU need to quit pretending YOU can give her this. And SHE needs to realize that NO ONE ON EARTH can give her this. And then she can look within herself in a deeper more painful way to heal her own hurts. If she does this she will then feel safe always.

Bump

Hi Hoti - I lost your #. either that or it was tax season - I may find it again, now that I'm back in my usual mess, instead of the numbers mess.

How can a tax accountant be messy you ask??? Ummmm no clue.

Stella, it's nice to see you again.

Hi hi everyone...

Jan

Stella:

I can't keep her safe from my needs and insecurities. She needs someone self contained, who does not put pressure on her. I am too needy for her to feel safe. I would be a burden to any woman, even one who was resilient. To Mrs. Hold, my needs are intolerable.