Star, can you please give Jan my number? Thanks.

And it is not for the better, is it?


I think for me and Mrs. Hold, it has. Neither of us is prepared to treat the other the way the other wants unless we get "repaid" first. Neither of us is willing to pay much (to our present spouse) to get what we want. Surely not even close to what we know the other person expects.


Yes, I think we are. We are both done trying. We have both given up on fixing "us". For different reasons, neither of us thinks it is worth the effort.

Hmmm, discussions last night confirm my reading of the situation.

Mrs. Hold again raised the subject of our anniversary. For obvious reasons, I don't want to do anything too romantic. For months she has been bugging me about how ragged our driveway looks. So I suggested that I take the week of our anniversary off and fix the driveway. Rent a trencher and dig a slot to place paver stones as a border. Get nicer colored gravel. Then rent a bobcat and grade the gravel. Mrs. Hold was disappointed that I didn't want to go away on a trip. She agreed it was a good idea. But she has no intention of helping do the work. I asked if she would watch me and lend moral support. She said "no, I want to watch someone else who you paid to do it. I don't think you will do a good enough job." Nice.

Then she told me she got Tanglewood (Boston Symphony's summer location) tickets for the night we visit S12 at camp. She said "we can't go to the Berkshires in the summer without going to Tanglewood". I said "you know how expensive the local hotels are (we checked online) and I was thinking of staying far away. Now we are going to have to make a long drive late at night to get back to the hotel". She said "I guess we will have to stay closer". I said "we could camp out". She rolled her eyes and said "so much for marrying an Ivy League lawyer who grew up in [name of fancy suburb]." I said "I told before we got married you not to count on living that kind of life." She said "yes you did, but I didn't believe you, I thought you were just being modest".

When we got home she again complained about how she looks and not being able to find anything to wear to S12's Bar Mitzvah. I said "what no crash diet like your friends M and A and s did to get into their bar Mitzvah outfits?" She said "no, people will have to accept me as I am".

It is so clear she is hurting. And so clear I can't help her. Part of me respects her for not giving in to the urge to diet just to fit into the dress for the party. Part of me wishes I were married to a woman who WOULD diet to get into a dress for a party.

This goes back to her viewing her self worth in terms of financial worth...and if your willing to PAY someone else to do the work then SHE feels valued as a person.


This is HER trust issue and not taking people at their word, and does not reflect on you at all.

You have kept your word over the years, she just hasn't learned to accept it yet.

Hanora:

Don't know if I've ever told you this, but one of your posts from years ago resonates with me more than almost any other. You said something like "what you ask for is not unreasonable, and what you hope to achieve is not improbable". You explained that, after you make love, your husband has an extra spring in his step and seems more energized to battle the world on your behalf.

Not sure if you would be proud to think that your post is one of the peas stuck under the mattresses of my marriage. But your post helped anchor me. I may be messed up, but at least I am not totally psychotic!

Edited to add:

wow, that post really did resonate with me. Here is the original from 2003:

TR:

Thank you for the support. Still, I'm not sure that I am proud of keeping my word that I wasn't going to be as financially sucessful as Mrs. Hold imagined.

Man, I just hurt for you when I read your posts. You have a brilliant mind but you don’t seem to notice how self-destructive your avoidance is.

I am so pessimistic about our relationship that I won't spend time alone with her………………………and I am convinced our marriage can NOT be saved. That change is in my head. And dooms our marriage.

And what’s going to change for you by staying in a hopeless marriage? I know it hurts like *ell to put your efforts and feelings out the to initiate change. Not doing anything about it hurts worse, you just don’t feel it all at once but it will catch up with you.

You do have the ability to change your life for the better but it takes action. I stayed in my M for a while because of my D. My C has challenged me to reevaluate that mindset, and I’m not sure that it really made any sense. If it allows you children to live in a broken home even though both parents live under the same roof, was anything positive accomplished? I sincerely doubt it. As an adult, if I were to look back on my childhood with the knowledge that my parents stayed together for my wellbeing and they sacrificed themselves then I would be disappointed in my parents.

But our marriage probably won't survive our mutual inability / unwillingness to provide what the other desires. Tragic. But real.

No marriage will survive this way. And you are committing emotion suicide to follow this path.

I say this with the utmost of respect:

Grow some balls, formulate a plan for your happiness and execute it. If you want a happy marriage with your W then put it all out there and go for it. Your W may or may not follow you. If she does not then it was her choice.


Guess there probably aren't many Sith Lords hanging out here for me to apprentice myself to.

There’s no Sith Lord out there that would take you in the emotional condition that you are in. And I don’t think that the dark side possesses you anyway. You have too much heart.

My oh my. No I certainly don't remember posting that, nor do I remember you saying anything about it having so much impact on you.

But I stand by my words. Health problems have made sex less frequent of late, but post shower naked hugs continue. I suspect that maybe the more elderly are more successful with this sort of thing. That is naked hugging that is not a prelude to sex.

Another thought

If this marriage is really over, and perhaps it is, do not think that the best time to leave is when the first or last child graduates from HS. A lot of men seem to think that, but I think they are wrong.

Going off to college is a rough time for a kid, more for boys than girls I think, but it is way down on the list of good times to pull the rung out from under them. Their parents and home still matter a great deal, moreso when they aren't there constantly.

I certainly am not encouraging you to bail, but don't stay for the sake of the kids without examining the implications of leaving at various times.

IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR ALL TO LEAVE NOW!

Better for you since you are not OLD and used up yet and could get a live still!

Better for the kids, if they had a choice, they would probably leave her too or want her to leave them!

Better for everyone.

Once the kids are born, there is never a good time to leave.

Maybe I should leave next January, shortly after S12's Bar Mitzvah. That way we would have a couple of years before D10's Bat Mitzvah requires us to address the broken family issues at a big family event. And we would have been long apart before S12 goes off to college.

I agree that men who wait until the kids go off to college are not viewing the whole picture. Not because I think HS graduation is the wrong time. But because I think part of what is good about staying until then isn't just that it is good for the kids. Rather, it is also good for Dad. If I wait until the kids are off to college, then divorce does not impact my time with them while they are kids. I don't have to live with partial custody and only seeing them every other weekend. I get to see them every night. I get to help them with all their homework. And hear about their day. And talk to them about their triumphs and tragedies. And get 100% of the parenting experience. THAT is a big part of what keeps me married. It is clearly about what I get from them as well as about what they need from me.

I want to do what is best for them. But who can say what is best for them? What is a "better" time? It is a chancy thing, and different for every kid. Whereas the difference in custody is real and 100% for sure. For now, I am convinced that my daily presence in their home is good for them. And that my relationship with Mrs. Hold is not sufficiently negative FOR THEM to justify divorce. Perhaps as Mrs. Hold is more and more unhappy, and our relationship is more visibly broken, my view on that issue will change.

For now, I think my kids are best off with me there. Even if I am struggling. If anyone disagrees, I am open to a discussion.

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU????? YOU ARE A PRECIOUS HUMAN BEING WHO DESERVES A DECENT LIFE!

WHAT ABOUT YOU????

Stella:

And that is why this thread is so aptly named. If I had confidence that I could build a happy and productive life for myself away from my kids. Such that the reduced time with me at home would be offset by their seeing me thrive. Then I would leave.

But absent that confidence. I can't tear their world apart. And then be just as miserable and unfulfilled.

S12 and I are participating in a charity walk this weekend. We have raised over $500 for the local rape crisis center where Mrs. Hold volunteers. Our shoes came yesterday. Pink sneakers for S12. Baby blue patent leather lace up boots with 5" platform heels for me. The boots are what got so many people at my office to contribute. All I can say after trying them on is, you ladies who wear high heels - God bless you. After I walk a mile in these boots, my feet are going to be killing me. I can't imagine how you ladies wear them all night at a party, dancing, etc.

Here is something similar, although these are zipper and mine lace up the entire way up the front:

blue platform boots

Note that the link will only work as long as this auction is active on Ebay.

Hold,
Divorce is certainly hard on children but it doesn't have to be devestating to them. You are a very good Dad and your kids are young yet and will adjust. My kids were 16,14 and 13 when I was divorced. The kids all to this day say it was the best thing that could have happened. Kids know when things arn't right and they want their parents to be happy. There is no reason that you couldn't share custody with your W and see the kids almost as much as you see them now.

Do you think that you would do better at work if you didn't have your issue with your W looming over your head all of the time? In the long run that will benefit the kids more also.

Your marriage is toxic not only to you and Mrs. Hold but to your children also. Kids think marriage should be what their parents had. My parents had a [censored] marriage most of my growing up so when I got married too young and had a [censored] marriage I just dealt with it because that is what I thought it should be. Hopefully my kids learned from me and the divorce and will have happy lives. I now have a very good marriage and my children see that and I hope that will be what they have.

I agree with leaving after your sons party. No reason to ruin that for him but after that you need to get real with yourself and your W.

Jill

I can't believe I am seriously considering this. I am shaking. May have to start posting in divorced / divorcing. OMG!

I can't believe it either Hold, but I'm talking about the boots. I hope it isn't a very long walk.

OH MY! I can't believe those boots....they are so cute!
What on earth made you decide to wear those boots for the walk??
will you be wearing shorts?
i wish i could see you in them.

i wear 4inch heels all the time 9I am 10 inches shorter than my H) but, i can't imagine walking a mile in those boots. bless you... You are something else!

Thanks ladies!

My boots with baby blue laces and shiny silver buckles are even cuter than the plain Jane boots in the picture! But I apparently got the last pair. Hmm, mine are like these white boots (except for being baby blue and having clear acrylic heels):

white lace up boots

I have to walk a mile. All the women at the office are telling me I am insane. But I have raised over $500 for the charity, so it will be worth it. I am going to wear them on a "trial run" tomorrow to see where they chafe, so I can put some pads in the tight places.

And yes, I am going to wear shorts with them. I want to wear my very tight blue tennis shorts that I got on Ebay and usually don't wear outside the house. Mrs. Hold has expressed her dismay that I would wear them in front of her colleagues from the crisis center. I would like to take her feelings into account. But so far she hasn't offered me anything that helps me be enthusiastic about NOT wearing the tennis shorts. Back to the negotiating table.

"Those boots were made for walk'in, and that is what I will do! I take these boots for walking and I will WALK RIGHT OUT FROM YOU!"

(A pro divorce song for you)

get yourself some nifty sunglasses too!