Last night Mrs. Hold has a terrible headache. She took several migraine pills and pain relievers to no effect. I rubbed her neck. Got the shiatsu massager out of the closet and hooked it up for her. Turned out all the lights and made sure the bedroom was dark and quiet.

This morning she thanked me for caring for her. In a sincere tone of voice. As she had thanked me earlier for a nice weekend. On the phone yesterday she said "I love you, even if you don't believe that I do". She clearly senses our disconnect and is trying to reach out to me.

Pieta, I don't think the problem is that I fail to touch her heart. The problem is that she fails to touch mine. And that there is only one way to touch mine.

I really hate that word toxic. For me it connotes nuclear waste dumps, industrial sludge and poisons capable of causing death. Humans might be capable of producing imperfect love, but toxins?

Humans are simply creatures of habit--and sometime these are bad habits. We are all capable of locking into frustrating conflict and continuing the same destructive cycle of behavior for years. We realize that it is hurtful and ineffective. The real problem is that we refuse to believe that our partner cannot hear what we are trying to say. And we for the life of us cannot understand why they cannot change their beliefs, ideas and behaviors even when we have given them obvious proof that they are wrong. So we play out the name negative, painful interaction over and over again until someone finally quits. Is this toxic? No--it is human. It is two human beings with communication channels blocked in both directions.

Yes, humans are quite capable of producing toxins. Sarcasm. Condescension. Disrespect. Rejection. These cause pain to the target. Applied often enough, they produce emotional damage. In some cases, even death (suicide, murder). Not saying I don't contribute to this. But I think toxins is a very appropriate word to describe the mechanism.


I never said she didn't hear me. Or that she is wrong. We are just a tragically poor match. She could behave the exact same way with someone else and they would get along fine. She isn't wrong. Or bad. Or evil. She doesn't have to be wrong to be not the right partner for me. Nor I for her.

I firmly believe that we do not have a communication problem. We spent 8 years with marriage counsellors learning to get the truth onto the table. By now I know exactly what she wants. And she knows exactly what I want. We just aren't willing to do what the other person wants. I don't see how that is a failure to communicate.

I do agree we are blocked. We have each chosen poor coping mechanisms. And both seem highly resistant to changing our coping mechanisms. But that is not a communication issue. That is a resistance to change issue. I agree that both of us have that in spades.

Well, you can't hold her lying to herself against her..


If she told you this, she didn't lie to you about what she wanted, she lied to herself that you were lying to her about who you were.



Or she just didn't realize she really wouldn't be happy with a doormat..


Men were not created to be alone Hold, so it's not that a man needs to be 'totally self-reliant' and most women DO want their husbands to be soft and cuddly, but that is not the same thing as self-reliant (IMO)


I doubt it..not an emotionally healthy woman anyway, one who would be willing to have sex with a man she loves, adores AND truly respects.

Even my 15 and 18 year old daughters want to one day marry a man w/ a backbone...a man who is assertive (not aggressive) but assertive and knows what he wants, one who is willing to ask for help and advice and support when they need it. but also willing to stand up and tell them they don't want to do something..instead of just giving in all the time just to say they 'have a girlfriend'.

My 18 year old has turned down many a dates w/ whimpy guys who won't stand up for themselves...and who are doormats to the girls they do date. She wants someone who can stand up to her strong personality

They have no respect for guys like that...and even less for adult men they know who are like that..

TR:

Thanks for the honesty. More good reasons to stay married.

"She could behave the exact same way with someone else and they would get along fine. She isn't wrong. Or bad. Or evil."


This is simply not true. What man wants a middle aged, overweight, money grubbing, spender, who lies about money and other things. NO SANE man who has got it together would want her.

Even if she met someone else and chose to "like" to have sex with him her other flaws would doom any relationship or marriage. Unless she met some criminal man or a man who was equally undesireable.

HOLD, why do you lie to yourself about how "desireable' your wife is to someone other than you? Her bad habits and flaws that you have allowed all these years have ruined her for any other man. Believe me, no man (or woman) would be able to put up with her for long.

Stay married if you want a miserable life.

If I understand correctly, it's not simply that you are WILLING to be a doormat, but that you PREFER to be a doormat. Why is that?



I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying you are immature? Because I really don't see that in your posts. I see a lot of maturity. In what sense are you not really an adult? Also, is that a circumstance that you want to continue -- that is, do you specifically want to avoid becoming an adult (in whatever sense you mean)?

My toxic comments were actually more directed at Booka whose wife threw the towel in.


Many people (probably all of us) are motivated to change by a desire to please our spouse. But before this can happen you have to like your spouse enough to WANT to please them. The problem I see so much with the men posting here with SF issues is that that they somehow paradoxically love their wives but do not actually like them. I also suspect that this is the case for their wives also.

A woman will change for her H when:

1. when they like the person they are changing for.
2. feel cared for
3. feel capable of the change being asked of them
4. believe that the change does not imply a loss of power or position.

Sometimes a very stubborn woman might need to be convinced that they are putting the relationship in jeorpardy (ie separation/divorce). But if you play this card you better be certain that the R is critically important to her. Also appreciate the fact that changes conceded under duress simply hide serious flaws until they unexpectingly emerge at a future date, sometimes shockingly uncontrolled.

You don't have a communication issue? Are you sure? For example, it does you little good if your wife agrees your requests are not unreasonable, but won't go along with them because she dislikes the way you ask for them. You have to offer the possibility of the kind of change that allows her to feel comfortable and in control

Interesting words HOLD. I'm not sure you're as much change resistant, perhaps just poorly differentiated, and unable to change in a healthy manner. Once again, I'd really recommend you read The Passionate Marriage by Dr. Schnarch. I know in the past you avoided this book because you thought it would be too painful to read given the lack of sex issue in your marriage, but it seems like you're at least considering divorce now and I think this book would be an excellent read for you as I think in reflecting on what you'll read, there's a lot you can learn about yourself and what you need to work on.

People who are poorly differentiated externalize their value. I noticed someone else quoted you as saying that you don't think you're an adult. I disagree, I think we're all adults, just some of us are better differentiated adults than others. Some of us define ourselves, our core values and beliefs, from the inside out, and live according to our values, whereas some of us are more apt to define our core values and beliefs from the outside in, or even if we have internal values, we have little to no self concept and self confidence to enact them outwardly in a healthy manner. People who have a poor self concept and poor self confidence are always looking for their value to be mirrored back to them by others around them, usually based upon whatever is deemed most important to them in life. For you, it's sex, you need sex in order to define who you are, and not getting it, means you have no value as a person. Way off base or somewhat accurate? People who are poorly differentiated resist change by default, because they employ and deploy self destructive behaviors toward themselves most of all, and toward others in their lives in vain attempts to find their value reflected back to them (via a reflected sense of self). Dr. Phil talks about this same concept in his books as giving away your power.

HOLD, I think you need to reclaim yourself. I think the problem that underlies your life as I've seen it over the past several years here on MB, is that you don't have any inherent feelings of self worth, self confidence, that you have a poorly developed self concept. I know that you know this and you know it well. You referenced coping mechanisms, but in reality, these behaviors that you term aren't coping mechanisms, they've moved from mere coping mechanisms to defining who you are as a person day in and day out. Think about that for a while. It's a truth I've been working hard on in my own mind and in my own life for about a year now, processing what I learned reading Passionate Marriage and in additional materials that relate to the book. I too had coping mechanisms, but they had become my very existence as a human being in my marriage. Something had to change, some things still have to change (referring to my own life), but I'm on a better path. I'm working hard on redefining who I am, getting back to some of my core personality traits that had gone into hiding post marriage a long time ago. I'm reclaiming myself and defining my core values and beliefs week by week and not living in fear of the people around me, I'm taking back my power as Dr Phil would probably say. I'm telling you HOLD, I think you would get a LOT out of reading The Passionate Marriage, even if it may be painful on the sexual front, I think you'll get so much more out of it on levels so much more important than sex. Give it some consideration. I'll write more later...

It's so easy for one reader to conclude such DJ, and even based on Hold's view of the situation. Nothing will be positive from it, and Hold' continue to feed off the negative feedback from his own negative, self pity posts, poor me I lack confident posts.

Hold just posted something positive from Mrs's Hold's actions--affection? How often does that happen Hoti?

If I can extrapolate on the situation you just described: Mrs Hold needed something, some comfort and caring. You provided the means to help ease her headache--and importanly in her view, you did it without expectation in return.

And also you did show some caring, despite the fact that she views your marriage as a huge disconnect.

Honesty. Where is it, Hold? You have the feeling of wanting out, divorce and such. You two probably talked about it, why don't you two talk about it with a MC?

It seems like your M boils down to that. Do you really want a D or not, or just still unsure. I think this possible reality needs to hit home hard to Mrs H, and one way I could think of is to speak of it with a MC, both of you.

Mrs Hold probably views your wishy washy about this huge decision as a sign to keep the status quo.

You feel defeated already, I know the feeling. And you are probably waiting for the right time or feeling so desperate that you finally just "give up" and file for a D.

I've been there, but it seems brutal and radical honesty makes all the "expectations" less important and makes the "basic" issues on the table.

Statement from me like:


"Sex is important to me. No sex, no marriage."

"You're the only woman I ever make love to, and no one else. I'm beginning to second guess that value in that when I don't feel fulfilled sexually within my OWN marriage."

"Kids are important to me too. But they will learn that Mom and Dad can D and still love them."

"I'm sure there are plenty of men who will find you attractive. I know, I do. It will be a huge loss for me. The only thing that I am afraid of is that I might have regret someday. I know and believe in my that I am giving my best to make this marriage work."

Yes, HOLD, get more confidence soooon so you can venture out on your own and leave that neglectful and abusive wife! No one with good self confidence would stay with that woman!

Get out of that JAIL of a marriage! As soon as your get your self confidence back!

Mrs. Hold does not believe she is capable of the change being requested. She has said this many times. And she is unwilling to accept that change will not result in a loss of power.

I understand her feeling that she is not capable of the changes being asked of her. I don't feel capable of making the changes being asked of me.


I have no intention of "playing the separation/divorce card". If I tell her I want a divorce, we are getting divorced. I have no intention of accepting any change under those circumstances as being sincere or reliable.


I am quite sure that there is no way I could make requests that would result in her agreeing to them. Part of the reason that our last coach fired us was that it became obvious that neither of us could be convinced to do the things that the other spouse wanted. I thought that several of our counsellors and coaches were quite skilled at teaching communication. We did all sorts of communication exercises over the years. None resulted in Mrs. Hold being willing to change her behavior. Nor me, mine. So yes, I am sure we do not have a communication problem. Not that I couldn't learn to be a better communicator. But I am firmly convinced that it would have zero impact on how either of us behaves.


I spent 8 years in marriage counselling. In addition, we went to several sex therapists. I agreed to take holidays from sex. I agreed to refrain from initiating any sexual activity. I agreed to go at her pace. I agreed to only do what she and the therapist agreed for us to do.

And I held up my end of those bargains. When we agreed to no sex, I never asked for sex. When we agreed to touch in certain ways, but not others, I never pressed to do more than had been agreed. Throughout the many years of trying to resolve this, she was in total and complete control over the timing, amount, and nature of all touching. I was such a doormat, I was happy to agree to anything that involved us touching each other. So I rarely if ever pressed for more than Mrs. Hold offered. Nevertheless, she consistently refused to do the homework assignments or to touch me in the ways that she had during sessions agreed to try to do.

However, I can understand why you would raise this issue with me. What I am describing is how I was in the past. Today I am not willing to go at her pace. Despite knowing that failure to do so guarantees her refusal to change. Doesn't matter. I am no longer trying to get her to change.

This morning when she thanked me for caring for her last night, she snuggled up next to me. She grabbed my arm and pulled it around her. Across her chest. She pressed her bottom against me. Exactly what I begged for all those years. And all I felt was frustration and resentment and anger. Hatred and fear. My turn to the dark side is now complete.

I never avoided reading it. I avoided RE-reading it. Read it years ago. Fear reading it again.


I agree I am undifferentiated and need to work on that. It would be good for me to do it sooner rather than later. But I doubt I'll do it while living with Mrs. Hold.


Good advice. I am sure I would get alot out of it if I could overlook the sex parts and focus on the internal growth and differentiation. If I could do that, I wouldn't be here on MB complaining that so many years later things have not changed.

I know where the book is. It is in the basement near where my suits hang. Perhaps your mentioning it will tickle my subconscious, and one day I will bend over and pick it up and turn the pages. You never know. Stranger things have happened.

Much less responsibility. As long as I am getting regularly sexed, I would just as soon she make all the decisions.

Remember how we handled money at the beginning of our marriage? I gave her total control. Over the checkbook. And over all our investments. Even though they were predominately funded with money I saved before we got married. I was very happy when she ran everything. I jokingly told her "you can be in charge until there is no money in the accounts". I never in my worst nightmare imagined that such a day would arrive. It did. Now I am in control of the finances. And I resent that she forced me to do that.


I am very immature.

And yes, I specifically want to avoid becoming an adult. When I was growing up, my Dad and his brothers all used to joke "the good thing about being a male in our family, is that _____ men never grow up." Now she is forcing me to grow up. I resent her for that as well.

I know I should thank her. I understand this is God's way of forcing me to do the growing up that I need to do. And that it is in my own interest to grow up.

And that is why I am immature. Because I know it is good for me. And I still don't want to do it. And I am willing to hold my breath and throw a temper tantrum to show my displeasure. If that is not the definition of immature, I don't know what is.

Oh come now. She is not going to behave the same way with another man. At least not at first. She will go back to her behavior from before we got married.

It isn't worth it to her to "starve" herself (her word) to be thin while she is married to me. The day I file for divorce, she'll stop eating.

It isn't worth it to her to work a full time job while she has me to pay the bills. Once I leave and she has to pick up the slack, she'll get a job.

And once she isn't married, the sex will come easily to her. It always did in the past. She doesn't have a sex problem. She has an intimacy problem. Who knows, next time she'll probably hold back on giving her heart to the guy she marries and hence never have any problem having sex with him.

And as for money, she'll either find arich guy or hide herself long enough that By the time her attitude toward money becomes clear, she has her hooks in so deep he won't be able to pull free.


No, I have never said anything about it to her. Not once. If I did, she might decide to leave. I don't want that, so I don't say anything. She may fear I am thinking it. But she is willing to suspend disbelief. And I am willing to let her.


I am sure she views my generally wishy washy manner as being tremendously unattractive. Whether she thinks I am dithering about getting divorced? I don't know and I am not going to ask.


I am not ready to put the basic issues on the table. For now I am communicating that no sex = no happiness, but the marriage can continue. I may remain on that message forever.

Neither of you should be in control of the finances--you should be doing this together--side by side.

It's not just the finances--this theme permeates all your issues. You both want control without the responsibility. Why do you think she gets migraines?

Yes, now there is an area we need much improvement. Working together. Negotiating. That would require open and honest communication. Which requires trust. See my earlier post about my level of trust.


Because she is overweight and out of shape. And hugely stressed that we can't afford to throw the huge party she wants to throw for S12's Bar Mitzvah.

You dont need any trust to sit at a table together, bills and checks in hand, and develop a written budget together. No trust required. Just communication. If she demands more for her in the budget you just say NO.

Of course you dont want to sit down together and do the budget if it always ends in a fight. Maybe that is why you cant face doing it.

Anything about money would maybe remind you of all your money she stole. That would cause you some terrible PSTD. Because you might remember the pain of it everytime you and her talk money.