You created these money and marital problems yourself because you didn't sit down together and do the finances when you were first married. That was just plain moronic. Then you decide to take money control from her and resent her for making you have to do it. That is absolute insanity.

And who told you being overweight and out-of-shape contributes to migraines? Statistically there is no correlation. I get migraines and so do all of my seven sisters. Not one of us is overweight and we all exercise. I run every day and three of my sisters live at the gym. I changed jobs once and my migraines disappeared for as long as I had that job.

So have you been carrying around this resentment too? That your wife's weight causes her migraines?

HitchHiker said


This is an interesting comment, because I've felt the same way. Hold, back in my Bad Old Days, I used to think somewhat similarly to you - some of my thoughts were along the same lines as yours, I mean. And since recovering my marriage, I have felt like HitchHiker described, in that I am returning to my core personality, reclaiming traits and strengths that I had lost. In my case, years of obsession with my stupid hobby, which caused me to isolate myself from my wife and from the people around me, led to this "losing" of myself.

I think I also sort of understand what you are saying about "preferring to be a doormat". And it isn't that you want to be a doormat, but rather that you would be very happy with a partner who would inspire you to do all you can for her. That you want to be with someone who you would feel free to be utterly devoted to. Does this sound right? Someone who would allow you to go out and be the successful lawyer, because she's got the home front covered, and covered in a way that fills your LoveBank instead of depleting it.

After reading Stella's post, I think maybe Mrs. Hold and I do have a communication problem. I know you are all slapping your heads thinking "ya think?!?!"

Of course, we have tried sitting down and doing the finances together. We have done this alone. And with MCs. It always ends the same way. Mrs. Hold saying "I can't believe that there isn't more for us to spend". Or when she is feeling generous "you make more than most people, I can't believe we have so little to spend".

When we put a budget together, she will ask for more money to be allocated to one thing or another. I mention that we have already allocated 100% of our income, so if she wants more to go to one item she has to take away from another. Then she either says "forget it" or says nothing and storms off in a huff.

Maybe if we could sit down together and work through the budget without theatrics, we could reach agreement?

Nah! Think back to all the other agreements we reached about finances in the past. Neither of us buys anything that cost more than $100 without checking with the other person. Both try to hold our credit card bill to $1000 this month. We budgeted $200 to buy sunglasses. We budgeted $350 to buy a new dishwasher. Did she comply with any of those agreements? No, she overspent every one. No reason to think that, even if she were willing to sit next to me and TALK about a budget, that she would live up to any agreement we reached.

I was right the first time. This is not a communication issue.

Mrs. Hold saying "I can't believe that there isn't more for us to spend". Or when she is feeling generous "you make more than most people, I can't believe we have so little to spend".

SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And how could she possible over spend? Did she go shopping for dishwashers alone?

H and I just spent $400 MORE ON A FRIDGE than we had previously agreed on or hoped to spend. But we were in the store together and said might-as-well! After looking at the quality of the plastic vegetable bins inside it was a no-brainer! If my husband turned around and blamed me for spending more, I would drag him to a doctor to have his brain scanned for tumors.

Hey, she does not have to live up to any agreement at all! If you agree on the price for the dishwasher for example then YOU buy the dishwasher! If you agree on a price for ____________, then you get to buy it. Because she does not hold to agreements nor can she be trusted with money, you have to hold the purse strings.

That communicating about money does not mean you can "leave the spending of any money" in her hands. She is not to be trusted nor will she ever be trustworthy with money.

But communicating about money is good in itself. Then you hold the purse strings so that agreements are held to. And then her untrustworthiness with money will never be tested nor cause any problems.

You cant get out of your "job" of managing the money just by developing a budget with the MRS. It will just help the marriage. Not make her into a different, more trustworthy person.

I agree I created the money problems. But not by abdicating control. Rather, because I asked for sex. There were never any money problems before I asked for sex. She invested our money wisely, and made more on it than I ever did when I was single. She balanced our checkbook to the penny, something I never bothered to do when single. When we went to buy a house, we had plenty of funds to make a down payment. It wasn't moronic to let her run the money. It was a division of labor. I earned the money. She managed and invested it. She liked that side of it. I hated it. If she had proved trustworthy, it would have worked well. And if I had never complained about the lack of sex, I believe she would have proved trustworthy to this day.

And as for taking control from her, the only other choice was divorce. She spent all our savings and ran up over $100,000 of credit card debt. When I first found out, I did NOT demand control. At first I tried joint control and working together. She violated every agreement. She lied repeatedly. She continued to run up huge credit card debts even after we sold our home and used to profits to repay her prior debts. And the bankruptcy attorneys told us that if we stayed married, I would be liable for all her debts even if they were incurred without my knowledge and over my explicit objection.

After 2 years of trying to do joint control, during which time we were in marriage counselling, I finally decided that I could not allow her to ruin my and our children's finances. The marriage counsellor was shocked speechless when she found out that the overspending had continued the entire time. So it was either Mrs. Hold gives up her credit cards or we get divorced. She chose to give up the credit cards, and I chose to stay married. My mistake. Back then I still thought the marriage could be salvaged.

After she gave up the credit cards the first time, she secretly opened some new accounts. She didn't have any way to pay them off, so she stole checks from my checkbook and forged my name on them. Stella screamed at me to prosecute her for forgery and get a divorce. Again I wimped out.

Maybe it was stupid to let her run the finances at first. Maybe if I had done everything jointly, the overspending would not go unnoticed and we could have nipped it in the bud. Maybe then I would not have built up so much resentment.

But we can't change that. The resentment is there. And I am not going to let go of it. Hence my screen name. When I first got here, I thought it was love I was holding onto. Now I realize it is fear and shame and resentment and frustration and anger.

My job is to work through those feelings. I don't believe I will ever choose to do that while I remain married to Mrs. Hold.

Yes, she did. I was in the parking lot because one of the kids was asleep in the car and Mrs. Hold did not want to wake up the sleeping kid. So I stayed in the car with the kid and Mrs. Hold went inside with the other kid and looked around. We had agreed on a budget. Actually, I think we agreed that she was going to look around and then come out and tell me which one she liked best.

She came out and told me "they had a floor model on sale and I loved it and another couple was looking at it so I grabbed it and put it on my VISA". Obviously, this was before she gave up her credit cards.

We had a long talk. That she overspent the budget by hundreds of dollars. And put me in a no-win situation. If I want to stick to our budget, I have to go inside and ask the clerk to void the transaction and put the washer (being packed up in the back) back onto the sales floor. Hugely embarrassing to Mrs. Hold (and would have resulted in my being banished to the doghouse for weeks - I don't care much about that now but I cared deeply back then). Or I could reluctantly agree to let her spend more, but resent that she pushed me to do so.

I asked that, in the future, she ask me before she buys the over budget item. That way she gives me an opportunity to be a "great guy" and agree to spend a little more for something she likes alot better. And we're both happy.

These days we have to shop for major items together because she doesn't have any way to pay for them herself. Doesn't work much better, as she is constantly frustrated that we can't afford to buy the fanciest most expensive version of everything she wants. But at least this way we aren't digging ourselves deeper and deeper into debt.

GET OVER IT! You have all the money you'll ever need if you die by 4:00 this afternoon!

I disagree. You put yourself in such a situation. She has no power over you other than what you grant her.

So, what have you learned? That you can’t trust her to adhere to the agreed upon budget?


That’d be kind of like defusing a bomb that has already gone off, would it?



Do you have the concept of POJA? Does she?




Why not?



So what’s more important to the two of you – to be happy together or out of debt together?

Hold, based on what I’m hearing about $$$ and SF (on other thread) perhaps there’s just tooo many problems between you two.

Out of debt. By a long shot. I cannot imagine being happy together. But with only $9200 of debt left to pay off, I can imagine a day when we will be out of debt.

Of course, we will incur more debt for the Bar Mitzvahs and college and the weddings, etc. But at least I will have had a say about incurring that debt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Ya think?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Too late. But man that would have been a relief.

So what! What does her frustration have to do with you?

And what stops her from getting a credit card in her name only? She has a job.

I have to deal with the fallout. Lately, I deal with it by avoiding her. Also, I have to deal with the impact on the kids. They are curious why Mom cries every time we go to Lowe's or Home Depot. I am tired of explaining that Mom is crying because we just passed the bath and kitchen aisles and she is sad that we cannot afford to buy a new kitchen and bathrooms. So generally I don't bring her to Lowes or Home Depot. Works to avoid dealing with her frustration. Doesn't bring us closer together.


She has several credit cards in her name. They are in my desk drawer at work. We have a fraud alert on her credit reports. Any new credit card applications trigger written notice to her registered address, which is my office. So far it has worked for several years to keep her spending in line. Last week I gave her one of her cards to use to rent a car so her account gets some use and the bank doesn't close it. She couldn't wait to give me the card back when I got home from work because she doesn't trust herself to have it in her purse.

Anyone who cries when going to Lowes or Home Depot has a B-I-G problem.

Get her some help! She is crying for "stuff" like some folks cry for more love or at the loss of a close loved one. This is something more than incompatability although it perhaps is that also....

Immaturity appears to be the legacy of the men in your family. Have you thought about what that means for your son? Are you taking any steps to reduce the risk that he will inherit the trait?

Also, WHY don't you want to grow up?

Stella's comment here really stands out to me. I can't believe that someone is truly sad and distraught over not having a new bathroom. I think that sometimes people who are unfulfilled will look for other ways to satisfy themselves - usually with material possessions. A lack of emotional or spiritual satisfaction can perhaps leave us vulnerable to marketing pitches that promise happiness and fulfillment if we buy or use Product X.

Is she really unhappy about the house? I am skeptical...

Pieta,

I don't want to hijack Hold's thread with a discussion of toxic relationships. If you would care to discuss this further, I would be happy to address some points in a separate thread. Just note that even email correspondence with my ex gives me a giant headache. She's still toxic to me.

Hold,

First of all, this thread is evolving into a very interesting and informative one. I'd like to supply sort of a parallel anecdote to provide some perspective from the post-divorce standpoint:

I'm not interested in dating people who haven't been divorced or have never been married. The same goes for those who never had kids. Marriage, kids, and divorce are all crucibles which some of us pass through and survive. Each one changes the dynamics of an individual. Prior to divorce, I would say that to become a complete person you would have to have a marriage and children. Now I would add divorce. Each step helps you gain perspective. For those of you who have never been divorced, you just can't comprehend the experience without going through it. Needless to say, it changes your life in a dramatic fashion. The strong survive and improve. The weak melt from the heat of the crucible.

My perspectives on divorce and marriage have changed. I'm a much stronger person and now have the distinct advantage of knowing what I don't want in a relationship.

Again, I won't specifically advocate divorce in your situation. I can give you a glimpse from the other side. I can counsel you regarding divorce. I'm a much happier person now and have returned to being me. It was still a very painful path to get here and I have not stopped processing the pain. Every day gets better.

I feel that by my definition, you are in a toxic relationship that cannot change the dynamics to avoid a slow death spiral. It's your choice as to what to do about it. Decisiveness is not one of your strong points.