Wow, this really hit home. A couple of weeks ago my husband brought me into Expo Design Center--an upscale Home Depot Company Store in Burlington, MA. He said, "Just to look around." We were not going to buy anything. He had stopped in himself a few times as he works in the building trades and his office is nearby. It is an amazing place. Everything is beyond beautiful. I got very emotional and cried too. When my husband asked what was the matter, I said, "Everything is so beautiful--it is really overwhelming." He said, "I'm sorry. I thought you would like to come here."

I felt bad that he felt bad and tried to explain my crying. It was a combination of emotions. Kind of like seeing a painting in a museum or hearing music so beautiful and inspirational that you get emotional. The other part was knowing that there are real people out there that can really buy and own this stuff. Not just a lighting fixture or a stove-top, but entire houses filled with this kind of beauty.

We live modestly. We chose to. I know that many people who have "stuff" also have huge mortgages and are arguing with their spouses over debt. Rich husbands often go through two of three blonde trophy wives. I am no trophy--just a freckled-faced brunette with girl-next-door looks who is grateful she never has to bleach her hair, or look anything but natural and wholesome. My husband is a wonderful person--devoted to me and the kids. A half hour after leaving the store I was back to my own self, realizing how lucky I was--how I did have the life I always wanted.

Hold, your post has made me realize that I should have done a better job of explaining this to my husband.

THANKS!

I don't know if she is truly unhappy or a world class actress. I only know that she cried the last time we went to Lowe's. And she cried last weekend while she was describing what a dump our house is. If I had to bet, I would bet on truly unhappy.

Wierd thing is, a friend of hers came over recently to pick up her kid who was playing with D10, and the friend commented on all the things that Mrs. Hold had done to the house. The friend (who is rich and lives in a huge well decorated house) complimented Mrs. Hold on having a lovely little house. So it is not like our house is a TOTAL dump. Does it need work? Yes. Enough to cry over every time you think of getting a new kitchen? Hardly.

You are very welcome. If I can't help my marriage, anything I can do to help others is a blessing.

I can understand appreciating home furnishings for their artistic merit. And regretting not being able to bring that beauty into one's home. If I thought that Mrs. Hold was regretting the beauty. And not her choice of husband. It wouldn't hurt so much.

Oh and booka, I read all your comments and appreciate them. You are right that decisiveness is not one of my strong suits. About the only time in my life I was decided to act rashly was in marrying Mrs. Hold after only knowing her 6 months. Look what that got me.

Today I decided to be bold one more time. I bought a car on Ebay. Driving to NJ to pick it up tomorrow. I did mention that I totalled my car last week, didn't I? Anyway, we need a big vehicle to handle our camping trip next weekend. So I had no time to dither. If I didn't buy something this weekend, I wouldn't have it for next weekend. Renting something large enough to carry me, the kids and all the equipment is exorbitantly expensive. And constantly switching from a tiny inexpensive car to a big car and back to the little car is a huge hassle. So this morning I used all my Ebay skill and held back until 3 seconds left and swooped in and got the car after 2 other people made about 5 bids within the last minute! Yippee!

Hope this act of decisiveness turns out better than last time.

Thanks for the support.

Hold, I have no doubt that she is unhappy. I don't think she's faking her tears. I suspect that the problem is something other than the house though. I wonder if her griping about living in a "dump" isn't really complaining by proxy.

There are people who are materialistic out there. Of that, I there is no doubt. And it's a red herring to merely write those people off as "shallow". I believe that the desire for material things is a signal that something more important is missing.

Hold,

You're always welcome and if there's anything you think I can help you with or share with you, please ask. My heart goes out to you and it reminds me of how unhappy I was in the final stages. I've been there, believe me that I know what it feels like. I never want to go there again and I truly believe that I'm now armed so that I won't.

If the thought of your marriage process has held up your decisiveness, than that would be a patently irrational though, and we all know where irrational though originates from and it's effects. You can be anything you went to be and it's your reality to mold, form, and do with as you please. You can choose a poor reality where you are a victim of visible, invisible, or outside forces, or you can own up to the fact that your reality is your responsibility. These are my observations and I'm not casting aspersions. Your mileage may vary.

Now that the heavy statements are out of the way, congratulations on your winning bid, you deserved it. Perseverance and tenacity are some of my strong points. what type of vehicle did you purchase?

Nothing exciting. Got an old inexpensive car that seemed in decent shape. Just to get me through the summer until I inherit my dad's car when he gets a new one. If I can sell it for anything near what I paid for it, will be much much less expensive than renting a car for 5 months. Especially since I need a car large enough to haul me and the kids camping twice.

I found this comment very interesting. I'll have to think on it some more and respond in more detail at a later time. That said, I must say that I can't quite wrap my head around how anyone can state that to become a "complete" person requires someone to experience a divorce. I'd agree that someone who has never endured divorce cannot comprehend fully the emotions, thoughts, and circumstances that enduring a divorce provides. However, I'd also say that, even within the context of divorce, many people have very different experiences. One could also state that a person gains experiences, comprehension, perspective, and dramatically improved lives by NOT choosing divorce and working on the marriage mutually and creating a much better marriage instead of choosing divorce. One could then make the same argument that unless a couple has had significant marital problems and performed the hard work to work through the difficult marital issues, that they aren't complete persons either. The logic used here can apply equally either way.

Overall, my belief is that our life experiences, what we do or do not do, do not determine how complete of a person we are, but rather how complete a person we are is a reflection of how well we define what our core values and beliefs are, each one of us, and how well we each learn to live by those core values and beliefs. For those of us who have spouses, we must also manage to do so within the context of an intimate relationship.

I do agree that marriage itself is a crucible. It is a people growing machine. We cannot expect to exist within an intimate relationship and not have to improve as people. This assertion, if true, would seem to conflict with what HOLD stated in reference to wanting to stay immature and refusing to initiate real change, or put another way, stayinh poorly differentiated. Within the context of an intimate relationship, differentiation is required on a periodic basis in order for the relationship to survive. If the spouses refuse to differentiate, emotional gridlock occurs. I'd say this is precisly where Mr and Mrs HOLD live for the most part, in emotional gridlock.

Are you certain this is the case? Have you actually asked her?

Yes, when she complains about the house, she doesn't complain merely about the house. She also complains about me.

She used to say she was happy to be married to me, and sorry that I did not feel the same way. She doesn't say that anymore.

But in the end, what Hitchhiker posted is the most on point. I am poorly differentiated. And unwilling to change. Mrs. Hold and are are locked in emotional gridlock. Neither willing to differentiate further. As long as we both refuse to differentiate more, there is little hope for improvement. Others might find that motivation to differentiate. I find that motivation to crawl under a rock.

See you all on Monday.

My cancer tumor under the microscope in the path report was "poorly differentiated" but what do you mean by that word here?

Stella,

Here's a thread where your question is answered:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post3161705

A well differentiated person has the ability to maintain their sense of self (their core values/beliefs) when they are emotionally/physically close their spouse. Essentially it is learning to be interdependent with your spouse in a healthy manner. Opposing differentiation is the concept of emotional fusion, which is "an invisible but tenacious emotional connection" more along the lines of codependence.

The process of differentiation is essentially about managing change, while not losing yourself (your core values and beliefs) during the process. It is the ability to self soothe, to "hold onto yourself", while learning to be increasingly intimate and open with your spouse.

Poorly differentiated people tend to become emotionally fused in an unhealthy manner. Much like Mr and Mrs HOLD are at least from what I can see from HOLD's words. It's not that they don't have a connection, in fact, I'd say that both Mr and Mrs HOLD are very well aware of what the other person needs. They are in fact very much connected, just in increasingly unhealthy ways. This produces emotional gridlock.

Essentially, Schnarch's book identified to me the following realities of relationships:

1. Marriage is a people growing machine. Growth requires differentiation. People naturally resist the process of differentiation because it represents uncertainty and the pain of having to grow.

2. Because marriage by definition requires growth, sooner or later something will occur between the spouses that requires differentiation. Initially the spouses resist (because it's our natural response), however this resistance promotes emotional fusion and causes emotional gridlock.

3. The existence of emotional gridlock eventually becomes more painful than the pain and uncertainty of undertaking the process of differentiation. So, the current existing emotional pain produced by the emotional gridlock, becomes more painful than the uncertainty and pain of having to grow as individuals, which will in turn allow the intimate relationship to grow.

4. Couples endure the process of differentiation and each spouse becomes better able to hold onto themselves, their values, their own integrity as a person. As spouses become more differentiated, they learn that they do not have to sacrifice their own integrity to stay within the relationship, the spouses learn that they can both be true to themselves, to who they each are as a person, and still have a vibrant relationship. In fact, differentiation is a requirement in order to continue to have a vibrant relationship over time.

Couples who spend too much time in the comfort circle (which is the place where we're "resting" from the process of differentiation) will eventually implode on themselves because they refuse to step outside of the comfort circle and endure the process of change in order to grow as individuals, which in turn grows the relationship. IMHO part of Schnarch's truth is that their is, in effect, no "relationship" to grow, and that's the mistake that many people make. They want to work on the marriage, but only so long as that means they don't have to change themselves in the process. Since any relationship is merely the sum of the two people in it, it is the individual spouses who must endure the processes of change in order to improve the relationship.

Schnarch also emphasizes balance. People in intimate relationships need to spend some time in the comfort circle and some time in what he calls the outer circle, which is where differentiation occurs. Too much time in either circle is destructive to the intimate relationship, so balance is key.

Divorce, beyond obvious physical abuse issues and so forth, in Schnarch's estimate, usually occurs because one or both spouses ultimately refuse to differentiate. In cases where both spouses refuse to differentiate themselves and stay emotionally fused, eventually the fusion will tear the marriage apart. If one spouse starts the process and genuinely starts to differentiate, and the other spouse ultimately refuses and continues to attempt to control the marriage via emotional fusion, either the resisting spouse will divorce out of frustration, or the differentiating spouse will divorce, not because they are "better" than the resisting spouse, but simply because, during the process of differentiation, they define who they are, their values, and they discover what some people here at MB discover, that as much as they do not want their marriage to fail, they can no longer stay in a relationship that violates their own integrity, their own values.

In HOLD's case, I'd estimate that both Mr and Mrs HOLD refuse to differentiate, which has indeed resulted in emotional fusion, followed by deepseated emotional gridlock, which is tearing their marriage apart. Of course, this is just my two cents and my sense of their marital situation based upon HOLD's posts.

Thank you! I am glad I asked. I learned a lot. I have that book I should read it!

Hitch:

I think you are exactly correct. We both refuse to change, and it is tearing our marriage apart. For some, that would be motivation to change. For me, it is not. My fear still outweighs my desire for change.

Last night D10 and I watched a Nick at Night documentary on kids whose parents are in jail. The kids were so torn up. The narrator said that kids of convicts are the most at risk. Even more than kids of divorce. Made me feel sick for what is likely to happen in our marriage. But not sick enough to want to fix our marriage.

HitchHiker,

In my previous comments, I should have defined the context. My perspective is in the post-divorce world where I would not be interested in starting a relationship with someone who had not been divorced. It is not necessary or even desirable to become divorced, but once divorced the context (as with many other things) changes. Being divorced does not put oneself on a higher plane that those who are married. It's more like a fork in the road, one being married, and one being divorced. The divorced fork has a heck of a tool booth!

OK HOLD, you are still blaming yourself. What do you need to change in the marriage here:

1. You need to make more money and give more money to the MRS to spend?

2. You need to go into Home Depot and buy whatever the MRS wants that day so she wont cry?

3. You need to buy her new cars and vacations?

I dont know what needs she has that you are not filling except the three I have listed. Is there more you have to do in your marriage?

The problem is that I USED to meet her other needs. I used to spend time with her. I used to talk to her. I used to tell her she is beautiful and wonderful. So I was meeting her needs for RC and Conversation and Admiration. And back then it wasn't so clear that I was never going to meet her need for FS. So I had most of the bases covered, and if I would just have shut up about sex she would have been satisfied.

Today I no longer do any of those things. Nor am I interested in doing them again unless she makes major changes first. She has made it clear she is not intested in making the changes I desire. The only question is whether she is willing to remain in a marriage where her needs are being ignored. Because they ARE going to be ignored.

That is what I meant when I was talking to Star and Kathi recently about how I have changed over the past 5 years. 5 years ago I was trying to meet Mrs. Hold's needs. I was willing to invest in the relationship. We did counselling. We did date nights. We took vacations together. I was committed to making things work.

Now I am withdrawn. Mrs. Hold mentioned last night that I no longer have any interest in spending time with her. That I would rather spend all night playing PS3 than spend any time with her. She feels hurt.

Unfortunately, at this point she is not comfortable reaching out. When I withdraw, she withdraws. She seems to expect me to reach out to her - our previous dance that I am no longer willing to do. We need to learn a new dance. Which would require open and honest communication. Which I am not prepared to begin until after S12's event in December.

So for now it is just biding time and coping as best we can with an ugly situation. Eventually we will have to put the issues out on the table. Go back into conflict from withdrawal. And hash out whether we are getting back together or, far more likely, getting divorced. I do not look forward to that day.

Sounds like the MRS wants you to do all the giving. She will take and take while you give. It was unbalanced from the start. Maybe some difficult but honest communication will help.

I don't think she wants me to do all the giving. I think she wants me to value more highly those things she is comfortable giving.

Just as I wish she were more appreciative of what I am confortable giving.

We are not unbalanced. We are the same. Neither wants to move outside our comfort zone. As Hitchhiker said, we are stuck in the comfort zone. Refusing to differentiate. Refusing to grow. Refusing to enter the crucible.

The description of sex is not the only part of Passionate Marriage that is painful for me to read. It is also painful to read about the growing and changing that is necessary - and that I am too afraid to do.

What does she give you now?