Mrs. Hold wants to spend time together in a bad way. She said that she is bummed about this weekend. She is on Seasonale, so she only gets her period once every 3 months. This weekend is going to be it. Camping in the woods doesn't sound like the best place to get through it. To me, the fact that she would even consider coming with us on a camping trip while she has her period speaks volume as to how isolated she feels, and that she does want us to reconnect.

Stella, she feels she brings style and fashion and attention to detail to our marriage. She wants me to appreciate her for the way she decorates the living room and the fancy dinner parties she used to throw (we don't any more because we can't afford to entertain in the style she prefers, and she refuses to entertain at a reduced level).

I slipped and fell Sunday, and she gave me a back massage Sunday night. She feels she takes very good care of me, and she feels unappreciated.

She feels she gives me good advice about how to succeed at work. She feels that I reject her good work oriented advice.

There are many things she wants to give. She just doesn't want to give me what I want. And at this point, that is another thing we have in common.

"she feels she brings style and fashion and attention to detail to our marriage"

This is not Mrs Hold GIVING, she is TAKING by demanding you to pay for style and fashion and expensive details in the marriage.

"She wants me to appreciate her for the way she decorates the living room and the fancy dinner parties she used to throw (we don't any more because we can't afford to entertain in the style she prefers, and she refuses to entertain at a reduced level)."

Again, this is not her GIVING anything, it is her TAKING YOUR hard earned money to decorate and throw fancy and expensive dinner parties you dont want. This is not GIVING to you it is TAKING from you. She does what she WANTS to do and this is TAKING in the marriage, not GIVING.


"she gave me a back massage Sunday night. She feels she takes very good care of me, and she feels unappreciated."

She gave you one back massage in like, 10 years! This is not giving. She is not a good cook, she expects you to do most tasks around the house plus work a full time job. She abuses you and is demanding and high maintenance, she does not take good care of you. This is her TAKING from you. There is no GIVING from her involved here.

"She feels she gives me good advice about how to succeed at work. She feels that I reject her good work oriented advice."

She gives you bad advice and the reasons she gives any work advice at all is so you can hopefully make more money that she can blow to her hearts content. So she is again TAKING from you here, not GIVING to you.

So far, I have seen NO GIVING at all that your wife is doing within the marriage and for you. I see only TAKING under the guise of GIVING.

What is she really GIVING to you? What would she want to GIVE to you if she could?

It doesn't matter how much Mrs. Hold gives. Or how often she gives. Or whether she gives at all. I am not staying in the hope that some day I will get anything from her. I have accepted that I am never getting anything from her. In this frame of mind, her massaging my back for a few minutes Sunday night was a welcome surprise.

I am staying for my kids. And for our finances. And out of fear that I won't find anyone else. Not because of anything I expect to get from Mrs. Hold.

Today I took D10 to the doctor. The doctor (female) asked if D10 wanted me to leave the room when the physical examination began. D10 said "no, he can stay, he is my dad and it is not like some strange man is going to see me." She did turn the other way when she took her shirt off. But she wanted me to stay in the room with her. And of course, hold her hand while she got 2 vaccinations.

I am staying because I want my daughter to have that bond with me for as long as possible. I may even stay forever to keep that bond alive.

P.S. When Mrs. Hold was complaining about the timing of her period this morning, I made it clear that I would understand if she did not want to come with us. She asked if she had to do any work at all, because with her period she probably won't feel like helping cook or clean or set up or tear down the campsite. I said "The kids and I will do everything." She asked me if I would prefer she stay home. I said "no, of course I want you to join us". I wish I knew whether that is true.

Is THAT the only reason she doesn't throw the parties?

Would you like it IF she continued to throw parties even if they were less expensive?

And if you enjoy having parties just not at the high cost have you considered throwing parties at a cost you don't mind paying, yourself?

Is it that you really do NOT appreicate how the house is decorated at all? Or is it just that you would still be just as happy with the way she decorates if it didn't cost as much?



Does she offer you good advice: yes or no?

And is it you just don't take her advice given other aspects of your marriage?

"She asked if she had to do any work at all, because with her period she probably won't feel like helping cook or clean or set up or tear down the campsite"

I am sorry but when I had my period, NOTHING stopped me from doing WHATEVER I wanted and needed to do. She is not an invalid is she????


Oh man. I have heard everything now. Really she has you buffalowed here. Having your period is not like being sick. In fact working at things makes it better. Pretty much you dont feel anything different at all.

She really has you fooled! She is really good at it too.

I would guess that even without a period, the MRS would not feel like helping cook, clean, or set up or tear down a campsite.....does she ever feel like doing this?

That is what she says. She feels she has a reputation to uphold and does not want to throw a party unless it conforms to her standards. That is one reason we are having such a problem with S12's Bar Mitzvah. She can't imagine throwing anything less than the ultimate party.


I would like it very much. I have frequently suggested we throw parties that are less fancy. One of our marriage counsellors suggested we throw some casual parties from time to time so that our friends are not too daunted to reciprocate and invite us over. Mrs. Hold has steadfastly refused to have any parties if she is not given freedom to serve the kind of food she thinks people expect of her.


I have thought about it many times. I have offered to throw a party and do all the work and she just has to show up. She tells me she prefers that I don't.

She even insisted that we serve fancy food at the Super Bowl party last February. Luckily we had lots of kids over, and so she had to serve some less fancy food for them, and the parents got to eat some of that.

The last few years we have gone over to our neighbors on Christmas Eve while the kids are in Florida with the grandparents. It is very low key. The neighbors open a bottle of wine and serve cookies and cheese and crackers. the only guests are their immediate family and us. Mrs. Hold insisted we make fancy hors d'oeuvres. We made curried chicken salad (required like 12 ingredients) served on individual lettuce leaves. And marinated steak and goat cheese sandwiches serves on garlic toast points. Yes it was delicious. But this is an informal family centered event.

The only time I can throw a non-fancy party is on summer weekends. If I see a neighbor mowing his lawn I can invite him and his wife over for drinks in the afternoon. I always have booze and mixers and chips and dip in the house. However, Mrs. Hold has apparently expressed unhappiness when I do this, because now whenever I invite anyone over they say "did you ask your wife whether it was OK for us to come over"?

So now it is fancy parties or nothing, because now everyone knows that I am not permitted to invite people over without checking with her first, and she won't agree to invite people over unless I agree that it can be fancy.


I don't care much how the house is decorated. I want to live in my house, not admire it from afar. If our stuff is so expensive that we can't bear to think about getting it dirty or worn or have it break, then I feel constrained in what I can do in my own house. We have a table cloth we never use, because we used it once and the dry cleaner wanted over $100 to have it cleaned. It has been lying at the bottom of our hamper for the last 2 years.

Would I be happy with the way she decorates if it did not cost so much? Yes, I think she has nice taste. I tell her that. I like her taste in decorating. I am happy to live in a house she decorates, as long as it doesn't bankrupt me.

But she tells me that her skill in decorating should outweigh her weight and the lack of sex and the overspending. For me, it doesn't.


Sometimes her advice is good, sometimes not. Her experience is in different ndustries, so sometimes her advice isn't on point for my field. When she gives me good advice, I often follow it.

Do I sometimes refuse to follow her advice out of spite, because I am unhappy about other aspects of our relationship? Probably. Am I proud of that? No.

You've described what you think your wife would say that she brings to the relationship. But what do YOU think she gives you?

Also, regarding the period thing, I can kind of understand what Mrs Hold is talking about. Some women have more painful periods than others. I would imagine putting off the period for three months at a time might make it feel worse when it finally does come.

Mrs Hold doesn't seem like the outdoors kinda girl even when feeling good, and I've never met a woman that says they feel their best during a period.

She takes care of the kids, freeing me to focus on work during the day. She does my laundry. Drives me to and from work when my car is in the shop. Remembers everyone's birthday so we send cards and gifts. Basically family Committment and Domestic Support. Why do you ask?


Actually, I am sympathetic to Mrs. Hold's situation. I don't imagine it is fun to have your period where there is no ready access to a bathroom. Peeing in the woods is one thing. I imagine that changing a tampon in the woods is a whole different ballgame.

My comment was not meant to minimize the discomfort or inconvenience of having your period while camping. My comment was addressed to my own dilemma. That I am not sure I want her with us. Period or no period. I am wondering if I would have a better time without her. The kids and I had a great Memorial Day weekend last year. I am worried that if Mrs. Hold joins us this year, we won't have as good a time. That is sad.

Hold, do you have any links to resources on nutrition and healthy activity for kids? How is your D9 doing with her health?

My D11 got her physical fitness report at school, and I was shocked. She only passed 3 out of 5 areas. Even though she works out for an hour a day at her Tae Kwan Do afterschool program. For example, she can't do even one pull up. I think when we were kids we got more exercise, because we hurried up to do our homework, and then rode bikes, played in the payground, and played ball games until dinner time. And then we were active every day all summer.

I'll be home with the kids this summer, and was hoping to find something along the lines of an RC inventory that I could sit down with the kids and identify some activities they'd like to try. Did the program your daughter is in provide resources like this?

Wish that I had resources to offer you.

D10 is still quite overweight. She is 4'8" tall and 112 pounds, which is 64th percentile in height and 96th percentile in weight for her age. Basically, she would need to not gain another pound until the end of puberty to get back into line.

The good news is that her cholesterol is down significantly over the past 6 months. She is eating healthier, but still eats too much overall. And she does not get enough exercise.

We are encouraging her to go outside and play with the neighborhood kids now that the weather is nicer. We got her some dance aerobics tapes. S12 and I did them with her on enight this week, and I will do so again.

But as for organized activities, there isn't much. We enrolled her in a "Fit for Life" program last year. Twice a week exercise and nutrition guidance. Did not make much difference in her choices. Taking her to the hospital for testing seems to have made more of an impact on her attitude.


No, nothing like that. They had lots of information and handouts on nutrition. Very little on exercise. I guess they just assume that there are plenty of activities available to kids.

And in some sense they are correct. There are presumably public parks and playgrounds most places. The problem is that sedentary kids don't enjoy going there. They get used to sitting and watching tv and playing on the computer. Then they don't like going outside and getting sweaty and dirty.

Plus, when you are overweight and out of shape you probably aren't "picked first" for most outdoor games. Tag isn't much fun when you are the slowest and least agile person in the group. "Keep playing until you are fit enough to run away successfully" is good advice but perhaps not welcome.

In the end, you have to look at yourself and strike a balance. I get up early and go to the gym. My kids see me do that. I go outside and play with them on weekends. Mrs. Hold stays inside and never exercises. Hard for her to argue with D10 that exercise is a REQUIRED activity.

So if you are wondering how you can get your kids more exercise over the summer, think about whether there are activities you could do with them. Nature walks. Hikes and picnics in state parks. Riding bicycles.

In our town, the park and recreation department has relatively inexpensive activities for kids over the summer. They are only for a couple of hours in the morning, but for several years when the kids were small Mrs. Hold used them to get a break and add some physical activity to the daily mix.

Wish I could be of more help. Good luck in crafting a summer schedule that is both mentally and physically challenging and fulfilling for your family.

You and your wife should actively start a family exercise program and healthy eating plan for the good of your children. That child will suffer all her life with the health problems and the rejection from other people due to her being fat.

Could you bring this up to your wife? Even if everything is falling apart in your marriage do it for your child.

Hold,

We started playing tennis with my daughter this spring and she loves it. I was on the tennis team in high school and did a little of the tournament circuit in college but hadn't picked up a racket in at least 20 years.

This is how it happened. At the end of last summer we set up a cheap badmitton net in the backyard and my daughter begged us to play with her all the time. I said, "gee, if you like this, you might like tennis." I still had rackets in the basement, including an old wooden Wilson.

H and I brought her to a chain sports store just to get balls and we were amazed at the selection of beautifully engineered children's rackets. The prices were incredibly inexpensive so we bought the cutest "Venus and Serena" racket that comes in a choice of girly-girl colors with a matching zip-on cover with a handy shoulder strap.

Tennis is the greatest cardio calorie burning exercize. The whole family can play together and the time just flies by because it is so much fun. We also take turns shagging a bucket of balls and that is exercise too!

Years ago I remember having to wait for a court. I was amazed that no matter where we go, the courts are all empty. I guess the sport isn't as popular, in fact some have been taken over by the skateboarders who have turned them into homemade skate parks. At one such place, some skateboarders were watching us play so I asked them if they would like to try it (I had extra rackets.) Before I knew it, I was giving lessons and my daughter had kids to play with.

My daughter was never interested in the organized sports that are popular like soccer. When she was younger, she took gymnastic lessons, but she did not care for them and finally dropped out. Her only activity other than gym class was hiking and biking with us on weekends; so I am thrilled that she enjoys this so much.

personally, I would think she is a SNOB!! and wouldn't WANT to go to her house. And it wouldn't matter how 'nice' she would appear on the surface...because it's the attitude I wouldn't want to be around..


So in other words you don't want to live in a Museum, but a HOME!!!


In general conversation have you asked her why she thinks her decorating skills should outweigh the other?

After all you didn't marry a Museum Curator, or home designer you married a woman..you desire a relationship with.

And have you ever asked her why she 'thinks' people 'expect' that of her? And that just MAYBE it's more she 'expects' it of herself...and not really what other people expect at all?

This type of behavior is very typical of poorly diferentiated people who externalize their core value. They look to people, places, and things outside of themselves to find their core value via a reflected sense of self. In this case, it's her reputation as a person who throws top shelf parties and what she believes others must think of her at such parties. What people really think is irrelevant in her mind.



Once again, it's all about reflected sense of self. It's about the appearance of who Mrs HOLD is, not her actual self. She is finding her value in life from the outside in, not establishing it from the inside out.


I don't believe it's as simple as mere expectations. I believe it's about a lack of core internal values and beliefs, and therefore it becomes about finding her value mirrored back to herself, external to herself, by displaying a certain kind of lifestyle, having a certain kind of home, things, parties, etc. As Wayne Dyer says in his motivational talks, we oftentimes confuse who we are, our core values, with what we do, what we have, what we do not do or what we do not have. Poorly differentiated people look to the world to define who they are in this life. It's a painful way to live for sure, but oftentimes we'd rather live with the certain pain that we know and are familiar with, no matter how destructive, than to live with unknown and uncertain pain due to real change that would introduce a very uncertain future. In short, we stick with what works, even if it doesn't work very well at all. As Dr Phil would say, how's that working for you? We need to name it to claim it and then get serious about changing it, whatever "it" is. Fun stuff for sure.

I guess I have a few questions for HOLD along this line. Normally, at some point, the certain pain becomes less tolerable than the uncertainty of real change and an uncertain future. For a lot of people, the problem of initiating real change is an issue of raising awareness in the person's mind so that they can actually "see" the problems ongoing. Once the person really sees how their own behaviors are truly destructive to their own well being, that's when the change process starts, absent any psychological issues. For instance, I've been on my own journey for the last several years, and most of my journey has been about internalizing what's really destructive in my own life and confronting myself about my own bad behaviors. In many cases I was literally unaware of my own problems, and needed to either have someone else point out my shortcomings that I respected, or have raised my own awareness via educating myself with books and websites like this one, to come to an understanding of what I've needed to work on. Once I'd gained a true understanding, I was able to start and take steps to improve myself as a person, to better differentiate myself, and therefore my marriage has improved after the fact.

When it comes to HOLD, I must admit that I don't think he's confused about his situation. In fact, he's probably better able to put to words what his situation is and it appears he has an excellent understanding of the dynamics of his bad marriage and of his own personal challenges in life. In other words, he has an excellent awareness of what his problems are, what the marriage problems are, and what needs to change. This is where most people would enact change, once the awareness is present, then most folks enter the various phases of change:

Pre-contemplation
Contemplation
Preparation
Action
Maintenance

Why is HOLD not enacting change? Who knows, maybe he has a problem with procrastination, or maybe he doesn't feel safe changing around Mrs HOLD because he's poorly differentiated himself and needs her to receive positive affirmation from in order to reinforce his reflected sense of self, but he never receives what he needs back from her (sex).

HOLD, one book that helped me to identify my problems with initiating successful change in my own life was "Changing for Good". Don't know if you've already read it, might be worth your time.

Hitch Hiker, who is the author of the book Change for Good? There are several books with this title.

Also any other books you can suggest?

LOL..that's a mouthfull there Hitchhiker.

Sounds like a lot of trips around the mountain to arrive at a simple conclusion.

She's shallow and a selfish lover.

That about cover it?

Here's a link to the book I'm referring to:

http://www.amazon.com/Changing-Good-Revo...8967&sr=8-1

Are you asking about other books related to changing or other books on differing topics?

I have a few other books and manuals I've read on procrastination that I've found to be helpful as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Procrastination-Wh...9090&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Procrastination-Wo...9090&sr=1-3

The workbook from the 2nd link is a bit dry, as is the book on change, as they are based upon studies, but the data provided is very useful if you're willing to apply what you learn. Happy hunting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HOLD,

You refer so often to regret that you have in not stopping the marriage dead in it's tracks when she passed on sex over the honeymoon.

I have so long agreed with you here and wondered if you'd ever looked more in depth at immediate consequences?

There is something..practical and logical [and right imo] to the idea of perpetual and immediate discipline. I think really we al need it.

I have 4 children and so discipline is a big part of my day [read life]. I have noticed what works and what doesn't even with regard to very different personalities.

What DOESN'T work is inconsistency or consequences that seem safely distant.

I too have to be prepared to drop whatEVER I had going on and planned to deal with behavioral issues...and deal with them completely before taking the pressure off. I *have* to see a corrective attitude change before i will consider discipline to have occurred.

That ties in to some of your problem I think...you make a complaint but no follow through.

Sort of communicates weakness in an "I don't like that...oh well" tone.

I'm sure it fluttered around in her mind somewhere at some point that sexually starving her husband was not the SMARTEST thing she has ever done.

I wonder what might have been if you HAD dropped the axe and required change in the immediate sense?

I wonder what would happen if you did it now. I wouldn't expect something like that to be as successfull with a marriage that has enterred it's teen years so to speak as it would have been applied in it's infancy.

Not really, it's more about why she's shallow and a selfish lover. My life experience has been that my understanding that I behave a certain way isn't enough of a motivation to change myself, I must also confront myself as to why I'm exhibiting bad behavior, what is the pay off in my behaving badly. Once I raise my awareness of the underlying reasoning for my bad behavior, I become motivated to change myself for the better. Make better sense now?