Wow Hold! I had no idea. No wonder you have anxieties. That much power for any single man must be stressful.

Do you see irony and contradiction in your last post?

Yes, I do. I understand it is my depression talking, not reality.

I spent years in IC. Tried many different anti-depression meds. Nothing ever helped. I have given up on trying to overcome my depression. I am comfortable being depressed. It is all I have known for so long, I am afraid of becoming less depressed.

I am only looking for solutions within my comfort zone. I realize that any realistic solution lies outside my comfort zone. I just sit and wait for Mrs. Hold to change. So I don't have to. I realize that isn't very wise or mature.

Maybe someday I will feel differently. Probably will take me "hitting bottom" to get there. Losing my job. Mrs. Hold deciding to leave. Getting sick. Something major. I'm getting old. One of those things is likely to happen sooner or later.

Yikes, that is too Eeyore. Even for me. Back to work!

I usually consider myself a pretty confident guy - at least when I'm not in the process of having my W divorce me. I think that I'm reasonably bright, articulate, and I'm comfortable with my looks most days. That said, I don't think that I could:

-apply for Harvard Law School
-get into Harvard Law School
-graduate Harvard Law School
-be disciplined enough to study for the Bar Exam
-pass the Bar Exam
-ever make partner at a law firm
-go camping and have to crap in the woods (there's a reason God invented plumbing IMO)

I'm just talking about me here.

That is the point. And the difference. I am not a confident guy. I am not comfortable with my looks. And I don't derive any confidence or comfort from academic acheivement. It came too easy. I didn't have to work at it.

I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. Divorce is no fun. I wish you peace and succor and a wonderful fulfilling relationship on the other side. I appreciate your reaching out to me. So many here have done so over the years. It has sustained me. Some would say it has kept me stuck where I am. I think it has saved me from doing something desperate and wrong.

Thank you. Good luck.

Hey, I'm no Greek god by any means. Probably more delusional than anything. LOL! I was lucky enough to be zoned to a high school that catered to gifted and talented students. I knew a few people like you and I envied the ease with which they breezed through with greater than 4.0 averages (IB classes actually registered on a 5.0 scale). Likewise with college. Academics for me was like swimming through Jell-O.

Talking to you reminds me of someone else I knew a long time ago. I'm going to burden you with a story:

One of my jobs in college was teaching swimming year round. I taught mostly kids; from basic water safety for toddlers, to competition level teenagers trying to stay sharp through the off-season. I had a couple adults too though. One of my kids had a dad who was, coincidentally, a lawyer from New York. He had never learned how to swim and he had a great fear of the water. I convinced him to let me teach him.

Despite the fact that we had nothing in common and he was probably 20 years older than me, we got along really well. He was getting frustrated with his progress and wanted to quit and I didn't really know how to help keep him motivated. I also mentioned how frustrated I was getting with school and was thinking about quitting and just getting a job. I was tired of being a broke student with mediocre grades.

So then he starts to tell me a story about when he was in law school... He said that one day he had just gotten home to his crappy little apartment somewhere in the city (Greenwich Village maybe?) and was going try and grab a couple of hours of sleep before heading off to study. He said that just as he was nodding off, he started to have a dream about a beautiful girl kissing and nibbling on his ear.

Now, bear in mind that I was 20 or 21, so I was like, "Yeah? Yeah? And then what?!?!". He said that something made him wake up suddenly, and when he did, he saw the tail of a rat scurrying around the corner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> His reaction was, "Aw man, what am I doing here?!" LOL!

The funny thing was, he ended up motivating me. I decided that if he could live through that kind of adversity and persevere, I should be able to at least make it through a couple more years of undergrad for my business degree. I told him that, and he decided to slug through the rest of his lessons. I finished college and while this guy would never become the next Mark Spitz, he could finally make it to the end of the pool with his face in the water without having a total freak-out.

You never know who you can get your strength and motivation from. Some sources we take for granted; family, religion, music even. Some are so unlikely as to defy conventional reason.

Good luck Hold. You're more unique and gifted than you give yourself credit for. Life is hard enough without the self-flagellation. Learn to recognize the things that you can do that no one else can. Give yourself permission to be admired by others, especially if they can learn and take strength from you.

Thank you for the story and the encouragement. But I do not feel at all admirable these days.

This weekend was difficult. My parents came to visit. They ask me how things are going. I tell them work is going well (it is). Then I lie because I don't want to burden them with the truth about how I feel about Mrs. Hold. When I told them things in the past it only made it harder for everyone to get along during family events. So I felt in a way estranged from my parents.

Saturday night we went to a birthday party for a friend of Mrs. Hold's. I had a terrible time. All I could think about was how I wished I were married to any of the other women at our table. We talked about gardening, and one woman asked me whether I grew vegetables. I said I tried in past years, but it takes so much time and effort it isn't worth it to me, especially since we live down the street from a farm with a farmstand. She said "well, you must have a happy marriage because if you weren't happy you would want to have an excuse to go outside and water the vegetables so you could get away from your spouse!" I wanted to cry. And plant some vegetables.

Sunday afternoon we went with D10 to a pool party. The parents of D10's classmates were there. Everyone was discussing their kids' plans for the summer. When the other parents heard that both our kids were going to be away at camp for 4 weeks, and then away with the grandparents for 2 more weeks, they were jealous. They asked us what we were doing to take advantage of the time alone together. They were surprised when we said "nothing, maybe install a stone border along the driveway". Some smirked and said "yes, good cover story".

Mrs. Hold reached to hold my hand several times on Sunday. In the past I dreamed of her touch. Now it makes my skin crawl.

I hate being married to someone I don't love. Not as much as I fear change. But man it hurts to live this lie every day.

I hate being married to someone I don't love. Not as much as I fear change. But man it hurts to live this lie every day.

________________

how much longer do you think you can go on like that?

it's different than before.....before you thought her reaching out to you would make you happy.
now, it's a different story.......she reaches for you and suddenly you realize you don't love her or want her.

how much longer can you live like that?

Who knows. I have been living in fear and self loathing since I was 5. Can I go another 40 years? Maybe.

On the other hand, few times have been as dark and painful as it is now. In the past I had hope for a better future. I fantasized that I would get married and the pain would go away. Now I am married and the pain is worse than before. The marriage adds to the pain. And I don't see it ending while I remain married.

The kids go away to camp next week. Maybe while we are alone together, I will have the guts to tell Mrs. Hold how I feel. But as you and Hanora pointed out, if I go to her then she probably won't agree to change. Do I bring up the issues? Or do I try to hold on and wait for her to raise them?

I have had a headache continually for the past week. I never get headaches. Now I can't get it to go away. I tried medicine. Exercise. Tried to get some extra sleep. Nothing helps. Maybe it is the stress of the kids being away and being alone with Mrs. Hold. I am soooo not looking forward to this.

Sorry if I ran you off from your own thread here hold. After I posted, you dropped out for a couple of weeks. Do you want me to leave you alone?

Nah, no one can run me off from here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Just look how many messages I have posted over the years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

There isn't much point in me posting here. I am not trying to improve my marriage. And posting here just keeps me focused on the things I don't like about myself and about my life. There isn't much to say that hasn't already been said. So I don't have much to write about these days.

On the other hand, in real life I have few friends and not much of a social life. Everything revolves around Mrs. Hold and her friends (my choice and within my power to change), so I feel obliged to pretend that things between us are OK. This is my only outlet where I can be open and honest. When the pressure of pretending gets too great for me to handle, I come back and vent.

When I got here 5 years ago, I was desperate to repair my marriage. Never happened. Now I am desperate to exit my marriage. Don't have the guts to do that either. People here have gotten divorced and remarried while I stay here moaning. Not much point to that, is there.

Anyway, I do appreciate your challenging me to change my view and behavior. That is what I need to do to get out of my rut. Some day someone will challenge me and I will rise to the occassion. For now I choose to remain in the ditch. Does not reflect adversely on your efforts. Reflects my choice.

Peace be with you.

"Some day someone will challenge me and I will rise to the occassion."


Statements like that suggest to me that you aren't totally defeated. If fear and loathing is something that you've known since childhood, have you ever considered drugs? Medically prescribed of course. Just wondering... Seems like you're dealing with some pretty deep-seated stuff that's going to take more than simply talking it out and getting over it will accomplish. At least at this point.

have you ever considered drugs? Medically prescribed of course.
____________

LOL.
while we are on the subject.....hold, i think i remember you trying different ADs? what about anxiety meds?
are you on anything right now? and what seemed to help you the most?
i am interested for myself.

Starting in 1995 I was on anti-depressant and anti-anxiety meds for several years. Tried lots of different ones. None made any difference in how I felt mentally. I suffered sexual side effects, some of which were welcome. If you aren't going to be having much or any sex, then reduced desire for sex and inability to orgasm can be a relief.

So yes, I have considered pharmacology as a solution. I have even considered electro-shock therapy. Might have to give that one another thought. Where did I put that thread? Ah ... here is the thread on ECT


My most recent psychiatrist suggested I need daily therapy for several years to overcome a personality disorder. His comment during one of our last sessions was "it is not surprising to hear how how much pain you are in, or that you are aware of your problems, but it is surprising to hear you talk about it in such a calm and disinterested tone".

What happened when you were 5?

Nothing that I know of. I say 5 because that is as far back as I remember being miserable. For all I know, I was miserable before that and don't remember. I have asked my parents. They can't think of anything that happened back then. Best guess is that it is a genetic predisposition to be melancholy. Could be overcome by making better choices.

What were you afraid of when you were 5?

Failure. Being alone. No one liking me. Lack of acceptance. Isolation.

Well, you picked well in marriage, to meet and unfortunately keep that nagative world view or yourself that you have.

1. Your wife sees you as a near failure.
2. She does not really like you that much.
3. She does not fully accept you.
4. She isolates you in many ways even though physically she is there.
5. She respects and loves you so very very little that she was willing to STEAL from you and lie to you for years!
6. She leeches off you, her "failure" so she does not have to support herself or be alone in her high body fat world.


Due to HER own fears, orf supporing herself, and being alone, and being unwanted by other men because she is heavy, she sticks with you. Even though she is not happy and does not admire you or care enough for you to really be married to you, she is just too fearful/lazy to get out of the marriage just as you are too fearful to get outta that prison yourself!

The prison you both are feeling trapped in is less fearful than the "unknown" if you got divorced.

She lost your trust, love, attraction, and respect due to her bad behaviors. But because of your fears she knows you wont leave her even if you are not getting honesty, love, attraction, sex, and respect from her!

You will stay with your needs on empty and your wallet empty too and she can abuse you for the rest of your life.

Perhaps both of you are staying in the awful marriage out of your own fears (and of course the kids benefits)

___________________

where do these feelings come from, hold?
were you left alone a lot. what happened that made you feel that no one liked you..........can you pinpoint it?

No event in particular.

My Mom was a SAHM. My Dad was home for dinner many nights. I had a very "Father Knows Best" childhood. No abandonment. No abuse. I have a little sister and we got along well, even back then.

I don't know of any event that "triggered" these feelings. I have always had them. As far back as I remember. I honestly believe it is a genetic predisposition.

I would love to be able to pinpoint a time or event that triggered the feelings. That would make it easier to resolve them. It is precisely because there is nothing specific that triggered them that it is so hard to get them out of my head.

All I can do is make up my mind that I will fight them. Refuse to give in to them. And dedicate myself to behaving as if I did not feel them. Too often I fall short of that standard. Which just makes me feel worse about myself.