I agree

Pep

And,

Never forget that recovery does not equal zero vulnerability.

I actually think a healthy dose of "uncertainty" about yourself would go a long way to protecting yourself from denial as well.

Very true, BUT with true recovery should come some very TALL boundaries both personal and marital.

FI = Former Idiot


I was just trying to yank Pep's chain.

ky,

I'm not sure how I feel about using the "R" in front of WS unless the other spouses are also "recovered". Being a "recovered" wayward to me....requires more than just healing yourself and your marriage.....it's also about helping your victimes to heal. Afterall....the wayward is the one who got the rewards....the betrayed got nothing but pain. When the wayward in your situation is as healed as you are....then, you've earned your "R". JMHO

*fish

interesting point !

I can't find my chain

Good point, starfish,

I wouldn't have considered our marriage or myself recovered anyway, until my BH was also recovered.

And, what rewards? I guess I don't see those things that I thought were so great during the affair as rewards...least not anymore. I guess I used to, but...that was an illusion.
So I really got nothing out of it....only pain.

NotonlyWords,

I think I'd have to agree with ya,
about there not being enough labels. (for clarity sake sometimes)

It would be Nice to know that its an ABS (angry bs) .....NHBS (newly hurt bs) ......or some combination thereof, to let people realize where all the Bitterness may be coming from.
I can see where that could be real scary to folks and maybe some explination would help with that.

Sadly,
the earlier into this one is ......the easier it is to foster our rage/hurt onto those here, as opposed to our own spouse.
H*LL,
I still sometimes get some of that transference going on,
especially the harder someone's story hits me.

As to your RWS Jelly,
I commented waaaay back when (on the Recovery Board) that I really liked this one.
I supported it 100%!
Although for whatever reason it never really caught on.

And heck,
I even like it more now,
all cause my own journey is soooooo much further along ......and as a result, I can SEE even MORE of what that "R" can and should stand for.
Yep,
I understand things now, that I never Knew ..I didn't Know.

Unfortunately,
as shown by the slowness of this thread,
looks like your Subjects still are not ready for this Progressive type thinking.
Shame.

Hear Ye, Hear Ye:
Set forth a rider to every town, hamlet and village within the Kingdom
with the decree:
"Throw down your F and embrace the R". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
That is all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[edited due to my NO/NO word] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

not,

"Rewards" is perhaps the wrong word....pleasure vs pain would maybe be more accurate....sexual pleasure, emotional and physical attention, compliments, stroking....those are pleasures of affairs....amd they are powerful and exhilarating...so much so...that it's worth risking the pain to others. But the "others" never feel that....they only suffer. So...when it's over and the WS feels "recovered"....yes, they have some pain to recover FROM...but comparatively....it's a fraction of the pain that the BS feels. So <I> personally, consider PART of the recovery process to be reconciliation, remorse, and compensation to those who have been harmed. Extra-ordinary precautions shouldn't JUST be extended to your own spouse....but to the spouses in the OTHER marriage. I rarely see that.

Here's an analogy....Is it harder for the person who moves away or the one left behind?

I think WS recover easier than BSs....and so, I consider part of recovery to be similar to "community service"...you have to "give back" part of what you took. Until you can....then you aren't truly recovered.

toprope,

I just wanted to mention that I am not at all about "shame". I have written post after post about shame being a poor motivator and taken beaucoup heat for it. What I AM talking about is compensation and reconciliation from a "broader" view than JUST the WS and how healthy that individual has become. This didn't happen in a vacuum....and it can't only be addressed in vacuum. There is a big picture and a broader healing that defines real recovery.

I agree with *fish. Until ALL damages to everyone are assessed and compensated, there is not complete recovery.

However, some damages are too big to compensate. Some damage can never be repaired. This make me wonder if the R is ever earned.

Also, I think an analogy with drug and alcoholic recovery and AA/NA is appropriate. The former addict is never Recovered. They need to be forever Recovering.

Starfish,

I definitely can't argue about who feels more pain...but I truly think it depends on the individuals. I know, however, that I would not have dared to think mine was worse than BH's. And he never claimed to have "more" than me...maybe it was equal amounts of pain, but over different things?


I'm not sure I follow you when you say there must be extra-ordinary precautions extended to the spouses in the other marriage.....my thinking is that if they are in place for MY marriage, then they naturally extend to the other couple?

NOW

"This make me wonder if the R is ever earned."

I wonder this too.

And I think this is true, too:

"They need to be forever Recovering."

...and understand that full compensation for the loss is not really ever possible...but continued love and support when the BS has a "trigger" is.

starfish, I think I said the FWS would start to feel remorse in the process of becoming a RWS and for me this then led to me sending letters of apology out. I met with OM's Wife to apologize face to face. I allowed her to be angry, and to ask questions, I gave her and her family space out of respect. I stopped shopping in their town, I stopped going to their church (even when I was asked on several occasions by the Preacher to come back) I made myself disappear, for NC purposes, and out of respect for her and her family.

Aphelion
Do I at all think that compensates her, or the family, NO. I really think you are limited as to what you can do in this sort of situation, and unwanted. She would not have wanted anything more from me I don't believe, an apology, and disappear that's how I compensated her. I also called her and told her in detail when he would try to contact me, which he did for awhile.

I for sure assessed the damaged I caused all involved, directly and indirectly, I believe that is part of the process.

I am forever keeping my character flaws in check, they are apart of me, I do my best everyday to overcome them, I do my best everyday to self improve.

KY

Okay....let me give you some really concrete examples that I've seen first hand....where a WS protected their own marriage but didn't respect or protect the other one. Often times, infidelity happens among friends, neighbors, church goers, scout troups....situations where there is not only contact with the infidelity partner....but with that partner's BS.

A WS, could do ALL of this:


Which is still ALL about the them (the WS)....and still do THIS:

Purposely enroll their children in the same activities as the other family....dancing, boyscouts, etc.

Make a point of going to same grocery store, church, social functions etc so that the BS is run off.

Badmouth the OP, or BS in to their mutual friends.

Or just even post here on MB about how "recovered" they are when the BS is still suffering and can read about how great the OTHER marriage is going.

This stuff may sound bizarro and insensitive....but no LIE it's ALL true....it's the kind of thing that really happens.

Bottom line...you can recover your marriage, recover your own personal happiness....and still not be an authentic and compassionate human being.

Helping the other marriage....is akin to "community service" in the legal system. In fact, one of the conditions for reconciliation with my own WH....was 100 hours of community service....to raise his consciousness about others....to get outside of himself.

Recovery isn't just about getting back what you had before....or even being who you were before....because that was FLAWED and vulnerable. It's about being better....not just for you....but for those around you.

There is not always an "other marriage". In my case OM was single. As Jelly said above, she did everything she could to "compensate" the BW and family. Anybody that does the things that you mention star* is not even a F-WS IMHO. How can you be if veiled attempts at contact or not accepting responsibility for your choices or actions?

I have done my best job at making ammends with my H. He admits that I am not the same person. I hope that one day he will do the same for me.

As for myself, I do not like to even call myself a "former" WS anymore. I am so not that person any more but out of respect for my H and to keep my boundaries in full view I do not allow myself to forget.

Starfish, Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I understand now what you're saying...that was a great post, and I agree 100%.
That's called....seeing beyond your own nose, eh?